Feedback and Suggestions after "completing game" 10 hours

[lazyname]

Wall of text:

Fantastic artwork. Very fun and simple game, the first hours at least. I now have 13 hours into the game and no longer feel the need to play. At the price point, it may be exactly what I paid for. I just feel that the game needs more to truly be great. The game is still in alpha, but I did test games when I was a teenager and remember that anything more from this point would be small changes and polish/bug fixes. I could be wrong. I do hope I am.

This is not my studio and where you want to take the game is your choice. I just think you have a game in the same ranks as terraria and minecraft. Something that can truly make a name for your studio.

I thought of some ideas that can fit within the engine and not take months of development. I believe these ideas would truly spruce things up and add more end game. Once again, I do know this game isn't finished. Just throwing out some ideas to chew on.

The main problem with this game is that it follows the pyramid of needs. You start at the very bottom of the pyramid with food and shelter. Once that tier is achieved, you expand to supplying an infinite amount of the bottom tier. The problem is that once you've achieved this, there is nothing left to do. Why am I surviving? What world am I living in? How can I be creative and truly thrive in this world? How can I master it? What is end game? How can I defend myself and move beyond this lower pyramid of needs?

So here are some suggestions and ideas (some of them may be similar to what's in the works):

- Add easy - medium - hard - boss monsters that hang out in different biomes and only come out at night.

- Increase the timer on the torch to last one full night (same light as cozy fire)

- Add portable iron lanterns that use fireflies (same light output as natural firefly- but grows larger as you feed it more fireflies - up to the same light output as a roaring fire - infinite burn as fireflies don't die)

- Add metals as drops from monsters (easy monsters -> copper - medium monsters -> iron - hard monsters -> carbon to smelt with iron for steel - Boss monster "Nightmare Alloy")

- Add anvil and forge

- Add 4 tier "blacksmith hammer" tool to manually forge a weapon (ex, pc has to hit anvil 8 times to forge the weapon- hammer must be made from copper to forge copper tools, iron for iron tools etc)

- Monsters need to be killed with appropriate gear to make use of the metals tier layout: ex. easy monsters can be killed by any flint tool, medium can be killed only with copper weapons which are farmed from easy monsters.

- Nightmare alloy is used in the "dream machine" to unlock knowledge of the strange universe the player character is in. Each story being different depending on character selected.

- Add Nightmare Blacksmith Hammer

- Nightmare alloy must be smithed with a nightmare hammer to forge nightmare hearts which can be fed to dream machine into unlocking secrets/story

- Dream machine can be organic (artwork) as nightmare alloy is "living"

- Add iron fence and gate (must be blacksmithed with iron hammer)

- Add firefly street lamps (made of iron+firelfies-infinite burn )

- Farmed food should supply seeds imo (again higher pyramid needs- less legwork)

- Add appropriate research tiers for the above

- Special request: Remove collision from NPC and player chests

The names given are only examples. All of these changes can be added gradually, but in my opinion the monsters and creeping around at night should have been there for release. Rather than have night be dull and boring (yes it's fun the first few times and still can be), relying on sleeping bags to sleep through it. Why not turn it into a short monster hunting game where players scramble around to kill that nice trophy monster to achieve end game "living like a king". A very dangerous venture that can see them having to restart the game if they die. But to the victor goes the spoils.

Apologize for any bad English. It's not my native language.

I wish Klei the very best in the future, and I hope my opinions and ideas are viewed constructively. I know it's not easy to make a game. But in my opinion, this game is so close to perfection. At least in the survival genre. I will keep my eyes open for any future games or updates to this game. Good job!

o/

[mobius187]

The main problem with this game is that it follows the pyramid of needs. You start at the very bottom of the pyramid with food and shelter. Once that tier is achieved, you expand to supplying an infinite amount of the bottom tier. The problem is that once you've achieved this, there is nothing left to do. Why am I surviving? What world am I living in? How can I be creative and truly thrive in this world? How can I master it? What is end game? How can I defend myself and move beyond this lower pyramid of needs?

While these are all valid questions, the simple answer is the game is in Beta. We can provide input and suggestions that will help shape the game and resolve any issues. Of course the game won't make everyone happy, for example I love Minecraft, but I hated the inclusion of those damn "Squidward" NPCs. God, I hate them so much... but hey, I love the rest of the game, so I strive to look past that issue (which is my own personal issue).

- Add easy - medium - hard - boss monsters that hang out in different biomes and only come out at night.

Bosses? I don't know if I agree with this idea. If you want some difficult fights try building a campfire in an area with multiple large spider nests... then piss them off and don't use fire. Or find some treeguards, they always good for a challenging fight (it all comes down to tactics). Anyway, I don't mind difficult opponents, but I'm not keen on staging them everywhere. Terraria did a decent job with its boss fights and in most cases you had to take special actions to call them forth.

- Increase the timer on the torch to last one full night (same light as cozy fire)

Unlikely, as recent changes have been made to reduce the duration of fires. Torches are meant as mobile light... or in my case, emergency light when enemies swarm your camp and you don't have time to feed the fire. Later on there might be inventions that create longer-lasting light, but I assume they won't be easy to invent or build.

- Add portable iron lanterns that use fireflies (same light output as natural firefly- but grows larger as you feed it more fireflies - up to the same light output as a roaring fire - infinite burn as fireflies don't die)

The darkness is your enemy, almost as much as starvation, in Don't Starve. So the developers are trying to balance light sources so we don't feel too safe. Right now we have pumpkin lanterns, if you want multiple light sources illuminating an area. Or you could always capture/release fireflies... they stick around for a while and illuminate the area around you (well, until you approach them).

Also, there's no iron... but I wish for it. Until then we're stuck with gold... tons of precious gold, while trapped on a deserted island. It feels somewhat ironic.

- Add metals as drops from monsters (easy monsters -> copper - medium monsters -> iron - hard monsters -> carbon to smelt with iron for steel - Boss monster "Nightmare Alloy")

I remember playing Kingdom of Amalur and wondering how the giant spiders dropped gear when they died. Then I assumed the gear was from adventurers who died before me and the spiders at them. Then I realized that was stupid... even giant spiders didn't have mouths that huge. And was I actually cutting open spiders looking for "belly loot"?

But I digress. I don't think any of the monsters will ever drop "loot". They will drop meat and maybe other useful body parts, like the tentacles do. But hey, that's just my opinion.

- Add anvil and forge

I think it's a matter of necessity. Maybe once ores, other than gold, are included this might be added and maybe as a single placeable item.

- Add 4 tier "blacksmith hammer" tool to manually forge a weapon (ex, pc has to hit anvil 8 times to forge the weapon- hammer must be made from copper to forge copper tools, iron for iron tools etc)

So far we can craft wooden spears. And while we will be getting a hammer it won't be used for crafting, rather for deconstructing placeable objects in exchange for a % of their original resource investment. Of course, who know what the future will hold?

- Monsters need to be killed with appropriate gear to make use of the metals tier layout: ex. easy monsters can be killed by any flint tool, medium can be killed only with copper weapons which are farmed from easy monsters.

I would hope that in reality any tier of weapon could kill any monster... and that it all comes down to damage values. I know tools were nerfed not too long ago, so spears were left as the highest damage dealers (from items you can craft). I'm sure newer weapons will be introduced, but their merits may be based on utility rather than distinct damage values.

- Nightmare alloy is used in the "dream machine" to unlock knowledge of the strange universe the player character is in. Each story being different depending on character selected.

- Add Nightmare Blacksmith Hammer

- Nightmare alloy must be smithed with a nightmare hammer to forge nightmare hearts which can be fed to dream machine into unlocking secrets/story

- Dream machine can be organic (artwork) as nightmare alloy is "living"

Interesting suggestions.

- Add iron fence and gate (must be blacksmithed with iron hammer)

Why not a wooden fence, we have lots of wood? I know I've mentioned that idea before and the fact that we can rotate the camera should make it feasible. Once implemented I'll finally be able to build my base camp in the middle of a spider nesting ground like I've dreamed...

- Add firefly street lamps (made of iron+firelfies-infinite burn )

Maybe... except I would think the word "infinite" would need to be removed from that equation. I don't believe any light source will be infinite.

- Farmed food should supply seeds imo (again higher pyramid needs- less legwork)

That's possible. I know in Minecraft you could sacrifice food (i.e. not eat it) to gather seeds from it instead. Of course that quickly led me to have an enormous farm... so maybe that's not the best approach? Or maybe we need more anti-farm animals and weather conditions to curtail the construction of massive farms. Then seeds could be more plentiful.

- Special request: Remove collision from NPC and player chests

By NPC, are you referring to the pig men? Pig men gotta do what pig men gotta do. However we have talked about a solution for chests. Simply an empty chest can be shoved around, but once you place an item inside it becomes immovable. I didn't come up with the idea, but I liked it.

Well thanks for the input and I hope you keep dropping by the forums. I personally had no trouble understanding your English, so you shouldn't worry about it. I hope to see you posting more on the forums.

[lazyname]

Hi, thanks for actually taking the time to read this. I assumed it was too long and no one would bother.

Bosses? I don't know if I agree with this idea. If you want some difficult fights try building a campfire in an area with multiple large spider nests... then piss them off and don't use fire. Or find some treeguards, they always good for a challenging fight (it all comes down to tactics). Anyway, I don't mind difficult opponents, but I'm not keen on staging them everywhere. Terraria did a decent job with its boss fights and in most cases you had to take special actions to call them forth.

I think that you're trying to make your own fun with this suggestion. While that's good and everyone should do that in their own way. I think the game should provide it naturally. What i meant was to use the night to create special adventures you can embark on instead of just sleeping your night away. These boss monsters would be optional, although I can't imagine anyone not wanting to explore that option in their playthrough.

Unlikely, as recent changes have been made to reduce the duration of fires. Torches are meant as mobile light... or in my case, emergency light when enemies swarm your camp and you don't have time to feed the fire. Later on there might be inventions that create longer-lasting light, but I assume they won't be easy to invent or build.

The torch idea was simply to use something that they had already developed. However, the idea behind a torch lasting long would be to encourage players to venture forth and look around in the creepy night for these monsters I mentioned. The "charcoal torch" could be on the higher end of the pyramid and more of a late game research/craft. This would keep the early game intact and push night time exploration to an end game activity. The same reason why i wanted iron fences. Basically to keep intact the beginning of the game survival experience. Save the easy life for end game, and allow players to feel that they've progressed. Something I feel is lacking at the moment.

The darkness is your enemy, almost as much as starvation, in Don't Starve. So the developers are trying to balance light sources so we don't feel too safe. Right now we have pumpkin lanterns, if you want multiple light sources illuminating an area. Or you could always capture/release fireflies... they stick around for a while and illuminate the area around you (well, until you approach them).

I think that there is no way to make the game feel dangerous past the third night in the current state. I for one would seek out a farmland with tons of manure, and as close as possible to a forest biome. Every tree I chop down, I would plant two acorns and basically have an infinite supply. As for the farmland, I had all the manure I would ever need. Basically grow any plant easily and not worry about food. You can do all this by night 3 (considering exploration of map). Once you've reached this stage, or understand the game enough to realize this as an easy mode, the game loses interest very fast as the feeling of survival becomes just tedious boring tasks of cutting wood and pooping on crops so you don't starve.

I remember playing Kingdom of Amalur and wondering how the giant spiders dropped gear when they died. Then I assumed the gear was from adventurers who died before me and the spiders at them. Then I realized that was stupid... even giant spiders didn't have mouths that huge. And was I actually cutting open spiders looking for "belly loot"?

I used the metal tiers as an example. But just like the nightmare alloy idea, all of the loot these animals drop can be organic. For example: instead of copper, it could be spider carapace or chitin to replace iron. To defeat some of these monsters you'd need a spear made of sharpened spider carapace. So the damage values would not change. Just that lower tier weapons would not have any effect on higher tier monsters. This is simply to add more end game and slow down the progression of the PC (player character) by having them farm these monsters at night.

But I digress. I don't think any of the monsters will ever drop "loot". They will drop meat and maybe other useful body parts, like the tentacles do. But hey, that's just my opinion.

I don't know what to think but I think you can see how much I want it:) The tentacles are the most dangerous opponents. Every game I lost was due to tentacles, particularly in the orange evenining phase where you can't see their buds well.

So far we can craft wooden spears. And while we will be getting a hammer it won't be used for crafting, rather for deconstructing placeable objects in exchange for a % of their original resource investment. Of course, who know what the future will hold?

This sounds interesting, although I don't see a reason to do so unless you want to move your alchemy station to a new "base".

Why not a wooden fence, we have lots of wood? I know I've mentioned that idea before and the fact that we can rotate the camera should make it feasible. Once implemented I'll finally be able to build my base camp in the middle of a spider nesting ground like I've dreamed...

The only problem with this is that wooden fence are probably easy to make. I suggested "iron fences" to keep it as something late game. Like you said the developers want to keep survival in the equation. I don't think people will worry about that if they can build fences on the second or third night. The method I had in mind would be to push players to explore the night with a torch in hand while taking risks of dying. They would do this simply to secure a safer future by acquiring "iron" and thus reach a higher tier of living. Risk vs reward.

Maybe... except I would think the word "infinite" would need to be removed from that equation. I don't believe any light source will be infinite.

This firefly lantern would be difficult to make and another late game item to remove the reliance on charcoal torches.

That's possible. I know in Minecraft you could sacrifice food (i.e. not eat it) to gather seeds from it instead. Of course that quickly led me to have an enormous farm... so maybe that's not the best approach? Or maybe we need more anti-farm animals and weather conditions to curtail the construction of massive farms. Then seeds could be more plentiful.

I don't see why having massive farms is a bad thing. You only really need one farm and lots of manure at the moment. Anything bigger is simply done out of creativity and destroying a players large farm would just turn the game into a mindless chop wood and acquire food situation. These ideas may work great for an online game, but when no one can show off their progress I don't see how it will lead to a meaningful game experience.

By NPC, are you referring to the pig men? Pig men gotta do what pig men gotta do. However we have talked about a solution for chests. Simply an empty chest can be shoved around, but once you place an item inside it becomes immovable. I didn't come up with the idea, but I liked it.

I think thats a great idea. The giant buffalos also move the chest around and they're worse than pigmen. I guess you've never build your base in farmland before:) They can move your chest way out of place!

Once again, all these ideas i'm suggesting are to add end game. I think the beginning of this game is great. Just that once you figure it out it's very simple and easy to survive (long as you avoid tentacles lol).

I just hope this game is moddable so that I can make it in the way I'd like it to be. That way I don't need to affect others that don't agree. THat's one of the great things about minecraft:)

I hope you don't see my answers to your quotes as a way of attacking you or starting arguements. People are very senstitive these days so I just want to make sure you see that I'm debating with you. Refining both our ideas.

Thanks for the warm welcome

[mobius187]

The torch idea was simply to use something that they had already developed. However, the idea behind a torch lasting long would be to encourage players to venture forth and look around in the creepy night for these monsters I mentioned. The "charcoal torch" could be on the higher end of the pyramid and more of a late game research/craft. This would keep the early game intact and push night time exploration to an end game activity. The same reason why i wanted iron fences. Basically to keep intact the beginning of the game survival experience. Save the easy life for end game, and allow players to feel that they've progressed. Something I feel is lacking at the moment.

I'm still not sure about the need to extend the life of normal torches. I mean, if you need to you can easily created more torches, even from scratch with the right resources. The flip side being that you would need to time it so you could ready your next torch before the one you're holding burns out. Another risk you run with night exploration is setting fires, whether burning down trees, grass, or saplings. Charcoal may not be the best "better torch" because it's fairly simple to create charcoal, rather I would suggest that either we needed to create candles/lanterns which require beeswax or maybe add in oil patches bubbling up in the much of swamps that can be collected and used a fuel. In both cases those resources are at least a little harder to come by.

And instead of iron fences, why not wooden ones?

I think that there is no way to make the game feel dangerous past the third night in the current state. I for one would seek out a farmland with tons of manure, and as close as possible to a forest biome. Every tree I chop down, I would plant two acorns and basically have an infinite supply. As for the farmland, I had all the manure I would ever need. Basically grow any plant easily and not worry about food. You can do all this by night 3 (considering exploration of map). Once you've reached this stage, or understand the game enough to realize this as an easy mode, the game loses interest very fast as the feeling of survival becomes just tedious boring tasks of cutting wood and pooping on crops so you don't starve.

By the third night? I'll assume this is based on the fact that research points and unlocked inventions carry over. I've suggested before in other threads that whenever a player dies this should all reset back to zero. Then you would need to rebuild you science machine and collect items to gather RP again. Others suggested this be optional, but I'm not sure...

I used the metal tiers as an example. But just like the nightmare alloy idea, all of the loot these animals drop can be organic. For example: instead of copper, it could be spider carapace or chitin to replace iron. To defeat some of these monsters you'd need a spear made of sharpened spider carapace. So the damage values would not change. Just that lower tier weapons would not have any effect on higher tier monsters. This is simply to add more end game and slow down the progression of the PC (player character) by having them farm these monsters at night.

Well I can't argue against making monsters that are too tough to face early on, if anything, to prevent players from running straight to them in hopes of gaining some rare resource(s). Of course one use of your example already exists, as you're rewarded for killing the tentacle with a part of it as a new weapon you can't craft.

I don't know what to think but I think you can see how much I want it:) The tentacles are the most dangerous opponents. Every game I lost was due to tentacles, particularly in the orange evenining phase where you can't see their buds well.

Tentacles are dangerous, but I've heard there are tactics for fighting them. Apparently they attack everything... including spiders. I've also seen players use pig men mobs to attack tentacles... although in innevitably leads to their demise. The pig men, not the player, because you usually want to hang back and let them do the fighting. I am curious, would a tentacle and treeguard fight each other?

This sounds interesting, although I don't see a reason to do so unless you want to move your alchemy station to a new "base".

Well sometimes you place objects on the map and then decide you've made a mistake. For example, maybe you built pig men houses and only later realized the terror the full moon brings. While it's hardly as essential as the base tools (pick axe, axe, shovel) it's an interesting optional tool.

The only problem with this is that wooden fence are probably easy to make. I suggested "iron fences" to keep it as something late game. Like you said the developers want to keep survival in the equation. I don't think people will worry about that if they can build fences on the second or third night. The method I had in mind would be to push players to explore the night with a torch in hand while taking risks of dying. They would do this simply to secure a safer future by acquiring "iron" and thus reach a higher tier of living. Risk vs reward.

Well it all comes down to how much wood, or wooden boards, a wooden wall would require. If it took 8 wooden boards per wall section, and you needed on average, say ~16 wall sections to encircle a decent-sized camp that's... 768 logs. Or 256 mature trees. The only issue I have with iron fences is it seems too... civilized. While the idea of wooden walls goes bettwe with the survival theme. But who knows what the developers are cooking up?

I don't see why having massive farms is a bad thing. You only really need one farm and lots of manure at the moment. Anything bigger is simply done out of creativity and destroying a players large farm would just turn the game into a mindless chop wood and acquire food situation. These ideas may work great for an online game, but when no one can show off their progress I don't see how it will lead to a meaningful game experience.

Well in regards to that, yes, will manure the way it is now you can excellerate growing and harvest continually from just one plot. However I suggest (and have suggested elsewhere) that they nerf the excellerate growth aspect. This would slow down the growth rate for crops and help balance out the rate at which food is gathered.

I think thats a great idea. The giant buffalos also move the chest around and they're worse than pigmen. I guess you've never build your base in farmland before:) They can move your chest way out of place!

Actually I did, as I wanted access to beefalo manure. However I didn't bother with pig men at my base camp, rather I built pig houses near spider nests. This was mainly to avoid problems with the full moon. My next plan will be to build a few pig houses on a swamp island so I can hunt tentacles.

Are you happy with the recent chest update? They no longer move when you run into them, so they're "pig men friendly" now.

I just hope this game is moddable so that I can make it in the way I'd like it to be. That way I don't need to affect others that don't agree. THat's one of the great things about minecraft:)

I would love it if the game were mod-friendly. Although I've read from Kevin that certain game aspects are just not mod-friendly. Now he may have been joking, but I didn't think so. Right now I think the best bet is to expect the final version to come with the option for players to create their own islands and place existing assets on them... but maybe no options for creating new items, resources, animals, or monsters.

I hope you don't see my answers to your quotes as a way of attacking you or starting arguements. People are very senstitive these days so I just want to make sure you see that I'm debating with you. Refining both our ideas.

No worries.

[Toaster Fu]

Kevin said that as it is the code is a little messy, or a card pyramid just waiting to be knocked down at the slightest nudge.