Does the bubbling effect break anything important? [Also discussing swimming in liquid locks]

[BLACKBERREST3]

I got the dlc and updated to latest main. I noticed that certain debris will now bubble in liquid instead of not being able to offgas. Also algae will now produce oxygen bubbles when in water which is pretty nice early game when algae lands in your water tank. Does this mechanic end up breaking anything? I think if I'm careful about what materials end up where it shouldn't break any liquid locks. This is new territory for me so I don't know any specifics like what cells gas prefers to escape from when bubbling to the surface. I'm also just looking for a start or any ideas about what new mechanics were introduced in the dlc. Movement from swimming and critters I'll learn on my own, but anything else I should know about?

Edited 6 hours ago by BLACKBERREST3

[KittenIsAGeek]

"Does this break things?"  It can.  For example, if you ever stored your algae in water in a room that was also hit by light, then yeah... your algae is gonna turn into oxygen over time.  I haven't run the tests yet to see what the algae to oxygen ratio is, so I'm not quite sure how it compares to the Terrarium or the Diffuser.  The diffuser turns 550g of algae into 500g of oxygen for a ratio of 0.91.  The terrarium turns 30g of algae into 40g of oxygen for a ratio of about 1.3.  So if algae in water is the same ratio as a terrarium, then the only difference is that you're not creating a lot of PW in the process.  Also, if the amount of oxygen is limited per 'stack,' then a shipping rail through lit water might be a way to create a lot of oxygen really fast.  IDK. I'll have to play around with it.  If it is a percentage of a stack, then a dispenser dropping it into a puddle under a light could be a solution.  Also, algae only off-gasses in WATER when there is enough light available.  It won't in salt water.

I've also noticed that dupes with swimming will "swim" through liquid locks, and haven't had any break due to the bad luck of a dupe exhaling at the moment of crossing -- so that's better.  Then again, I also haven't observed any dupes exhaling under water.  I haven't tried using the new underwater "Breathing Station" or gas masks yet, so maybe that will change things.  Polluted dirt still doesn't off-gas when submerged in more than 1600g of liquid.  Neither does oxylite.

Spoiler

I'm assuming bleach stone won't either.   One thing that does 'kinda' break is what happens when gasses mix at the surface.  

Spoiler

You'll notice that the bubbles from the coral displace the water rather than the CO2 gas that happened to be exactly where it bubbled up.  I intentionally reduced the amount of water in the top layer of my pool because when the layer was above 900kg of water, the displacement would put a tile or two of water over 1000kg and cause it to displace the oxygen above it, which would push water out of the pool and onto the floor near it.  Not the worst of problems, but in another part of my base that exact effect buried a battery in salt water and the results were annoying to deal with.  I thought an extra tile above the water level would be fine.. 

Spoiler

Also.. mucin is great!  I'm still not sure how much will sit in a single tile before oozing elsewhere, but this single tile airlock has been fantastic!

Spoiler

The bottle isn't spilled mucin that got mopped up.  It is salt water from a different project.   I emptied three different bottles of mucin on that spot before losing interest and going off to do other things.  Curiosity will drive me to figure it out at some point, but there's other things more interesting keeping me busy right now.

I mean, it won't stop other liquids since mucin appears to float on everything, but 71kg isn't going to flash-boil like 32g might if a dupe hops through with something hot in their hands.  Or flash freeze because of a dupe carrying ice.

[BLACKBERREST3]

1 hour ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

 One thing that does 'kinda' break is what happens when gasses mix at the surface.  

This is what caused me to notice this mechanic in the first place. algae was sitting in the water, a light bug was hovering over it, and the gas bubbles were displacing water in that area.

So basically with the dlc, there is lots of uncharted territory. neat, can't wait to see what people come up with.

[Tigin]

See this extremely professional wiki page for all things bubbles https://oxygennotincluded.wiki.gg/wiki/Bubbles . It's all pretty tame stuff. Doesn't really affect existing bases since it really only touches some esoteric parts of the game like submerged terrariums 

[BLACKBERREST3]

Dupes exhaling C02 while swimming seems really dangerous 👀

I wonder if there is a way to preemptively avoid this for liquid locks other than just don't let dupes with swimming have access kind of deal.

2 hours ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I've also noticed that dupes with swimming will "swim" through liquid locks, and haven't had any break due to the bad luck of a dupe exhaling at the moment of crossing -- so that's better.  Then again, I also haven't observed any dupes exhaling under water.  I haven't tried using the new underwater "Breathing Station" or gas masks yet, so maybe that will change things.

Hoping I don't have bad luck either. A lot of critter builds I just worked on use a lot of liquid locks to control their pathing, but man....swimming looks cool, I want that on all my dupes.

given what I know about dispensers now, I have the perfect setup to test swimming with liquid locks now. gonna let it run and see what happens in a few cycles.

Can confirm that C02 gets pushed out. I don't know if this happens in all scenarios, but it looks to be generally safe for liquid locks.

 

 

 

 

Edited 8 hours ago by BLACKBERREST3

[BLACKBERREST3]

Now for the vacuum test

left side is no skill -> swim 1 -> swim 2

Top right is flatulent

below that is no skill -> swim 1

I need to test flatulent on its own, too many scenarios.

 

What we know so far: If dupes pee in the locks, it will cause PW to accumulate in the center bottom tile which will cause it to offgas PO2 in the vacuum so this is why I have outhouses in this test. Also, dupes with no swimming skill and flatulent break single layer locks.

edit; let it run for a little bit, all 5 (minus the flatulent) survived the liquid lock test.

Edited 7 hours ago by BLACKBERREST3

[Tigin]

Dupes won't exhale CO2 while swimming as they can't breath in liquids, so this new behavior would only happen if you were using an oxygen mask. Note that before CO2 exhalation already functioned somewhat similar to bubbles. When exhaling it looks at the nearest gas cell directly above the duplicant to spawn CO2, bypassing any liquids/solids/non-permeable cells.

The only functional difference is that this check before also excluded solids so you'd have some funny CO2 teleporting across solids, while bubbles have a cool velocity component to them and pop at the solid rather than teleport-jutsu'ing CO2. To actually trigger bubbles the duplicant needs both tiles it is in to be liquid, and the liquid the head is in needs to be greater than 980kg (strict mass check, element does not matter).

[BLACKBERREST3]

I was led to believe that single layer vacuum locks could be broken when dupes pull O2 from 1 tile away, but I haven't had that happen yet, I'll let it run for a bit longer.

[Tigin]

Single layer liquid locks won't shift from dupes breathing, but it's possible for vacuum to break for certain configurations if the lock is an inlet (the tiles above the dupe are the vacuum you're trying to protect)

This configuration for example is bad

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Tigin

[BLACKBERREST3]

faltulent dupes break locks whether they are swimming or not and whether they are single layer or double layer. flatulent dupes are still a hazard to locks.

2 minutes ago, Tigin said:

This configuration for example is bad

Good thing I never use those types of locks. I've always stuck with stacking 2 liquids because usually there is little speed penalty and no climbing required to walk or hop through them (aside from shivering anyway).

5 minutes ago, Tigin said:

Single layer liquid locks won't shift from dupes breathing

Now I can save one more space on my drecko ranch, thanks. My own testing confirms the same thing.

[KittenIsAGeek]

57 minutes ago, BLACKBERREST3 said:

Can confirm that C02 gets pushed out. I don't know if this happens in all scenarios, but it looks to be generally safe for liquid locks.

Sweet!

26 minutes ago, BLACKBERREST3 said:

What we know so far: If dupes pee in the locks,

TMI!  TMI!  Hehehe.  Generally speaking, my dupes regularly have access to at LEAST an outhouse.    However, the information you found might be useful.  So.. Your dupes are peeing for science!

7 minutes ago, BLACKBERREST3 said:

single layer vacuum locks could be broken when dupes pull O2 from 1 tile away,

I have had this happen, but only when the dupe was standing on the liquid tile and there was nowhere else for the CO2 to go.

3 minutes ago, Tigin said:

(the tiles above the dupe are the vacuum you're trying to protect)

Yeah, generally when I use a single tile liquid lock, the vacuum is below so the dupe has to climb out.  If the vacuum is _really_ important, I'll do a double lock with the one closest to the oxygen maybe getting compromised with CO2 without it affecting the main vacuum.  A double-step with a single-tile area to catch the CO2, for example.

6 minutes ago, BLACKBERREST3 said:

flatulent dupes are still a hazard to locks.

Poor Stinky!  Forever on the no-access list for doorways into vacuum or "clean" rooms.

[BLACKBERREST3]

39 minutes ago, KittenIsAGeek said:

I have had this happen, but only when the dupe was standing on the liquid tile and there was nowhere else for the CO2 to go.

I'm having trouble creating a scenario with a 2 stack lock where this can happen. It seems only tigin's scenario with the 1 stack would do this. This is mostly because 2 stacks break on corners.

 

I think it was confusing when I was talking about single and double layer vs single stack and 2-stack locks, my b. I was calling double layer = top left and single layer = right side. single stack = bottom left

afaik I couldn't break single or double layer locks with dupes exhaling

 

Further testing of unusual scenarios. Doesn't break the lock here.

I did find out that meep doesn't swim through this setup. He likes to hop through it. This is actually a detriment because swimming is faster.

same with gaps, meep wont swim through

seems like their pathing needs 1 extra tile of walkable space ahead of them if they decide to jump or swim through.

Edited 7 hours ago by BLACKBERREST3

[BLACKBERREST3]

Nothing major, but it had to be tested.

I think I got sidetracked from the OP XD

Somewhere down the line I'll do some more testing on this.

1 hour ago, Tigin said:

Dupes won't exhale CO2 while swimming as they can't breath in liquids, so this new behavior would only happen if you were using an oxygen mask. Note that before CO2 exhalation already functioned somewhat similar to bubbles. When exhaling it looks at the nearest gas cell directly above the duplicant to spawn CO2, bypassing any liquids/solids/non-permeable cells.

The only functional difference is that this check before also excluded solids so you'd have some funny CO2 teleporting across solids, while bubbles have a cool velocity component to them and pop at the solid rather than teleport-jutsu'ing CO2. To actually trigger bubbles the duplicant needs both tiles it is in to be liquid, and the liquid the head is in needs to be greater than 980kg (strict mass check, element does not matter).

 

[blakemw]

6 hours ago, BLACKBERREST3 said:

faltulent dupes break locks whether they are swimming or not and whether they are single layer or double layer. flatulent dupes are still a hazard to locks.

This also goes for a dupe who removes their suit which causes the stored CO2 to be released like a fart. This can happen due to death or you manually making a suit assignment, it's possible to do this accidentally as the suit assignment dialog (when you select an atmosuit or mask on the ground) lets you click the suit off any dupe instantly dropping it. Not nearly as hazardous as flatulence but at least a theoretical hazard and I have managed to contaminate vacuums through suit removal misclicks.

[BLACKBERREST3]

1 hour ago, blakemw said:

This also goes for a dupe who removes their suit which causes the stored CO2 to be released like a fart.

You just reminded me of an exploit I was reading a while ago. I think it was this one. I forget what other benefits came from just leaving dupes in an atmo suit forever. I've developed a strategy I use that goes without using atmo suits for the longest possible time. I usually saturate the atmosphere with o2 so my dupes can dig and explore the rest of the world. each biome with slimelung or disease is handled biome by biome. I also handle temperature differences by building hot things in cold biomes so I can melt ice without having to dig and lose mass. slowly over time I reach the core where I can isolate a section and dump the worlds supply of pw onto it. powering steam turbines for a long time and getting a lot of water in the process.