Spin-Cycle Dizziness

[Paridox9000]

I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting or missing something, but the spin cycle circuit kinda just feels like it got stealth-nerfed with the dizziness change. I don't mind having some drawback to it, but currently it's only benefits are the AoE and movement, which feels slow and awkward for combat. Currently, just holding F with a maxed out shadow maul deals 132 DPS. (This is without animation cancelling.)

However, with Gamma Circuits Tinkering II, 2 spin cycle circuits, and the same maul, WX's DPS drops to only 114, only 2 DPS better than a tentacle spike, and 16 DPS worse than a fresh hambat. A weapon easily obtained within your first 5 days is outcompeting an endgame weapon with 2 circuits, and 2 insight points invested into it.
 

I do agree that the spin cycle should have some intrinsic weakness for it's strengths, but given that currently it's a downgrade in single target situations, I feel that the dizziness mechanic, in it's current iteration is a bit heavy handed.

Personally, I think that extending the dizziness timer to a longer duration, for example, 15 seconds, but making it so that whenever you get hit while spinning, you loose 5 seconds off your spin duration, could make it a more interesting mechanic. (These are just example numbers, it's hard to exactly say how well this change would perform)

Alternatively, indefinite spin duration, but getting hit twice within 15 seconds makes WX dizzy (3-4 hits with 2 circuits maybe?)

Beyond that, the AoE is undeniably nice, however, outside of spider dens, hound waves, and the occasional boss, not many fights will have multiple mobs outside of farms which are usually safe anyways if properly designed.

However, the movement feels awkward and sluggish for fighting IMO, though I think I could get used to it playing with it more

Edited April 8 by Paridox9000
Clarification for DPS numbers

[Ponuem_BR]

Let’s go — the spin circuit is focused on utility, like cutting trees, collecting berries, grass, and twigs. It wasn’t necessarily created for combat, even though it’s extremely useful for that as well. So yes, it’s perfectly balanced.

Wait, you want area damage to be higher than single-target damage?? Bro.

[Paridox9000]

13 minutes ago, Ponuem_BR said:

Let’s go — the spin circuit is focused on utility, like cutting trees, collecting berries, grass, and twigs. It wasn’t necessarily created for combat, even though it’s extremely useful for that as well. So yes, it’s perfectly balanced.

Wait, you want area damage to be higher than single-target damage?? Bro.

AoE is commonplace nowadays though. Willow gets a flamethrower, Wolfgang can clear small groups with a single dumbbell toss, Wendy can AFK clear swarms with Abigail, and gets boosted damage for it too, Woodie gets the moose charge, Wigfrid gets the Elding Spear charge, Winona just breaks the game balancing with a little prep time, and Wortox gets exploding decoys and piercing souls. I'm not saying it should be 3x dmg, just like, a DPS loss for AoE with some of the most end-game gear in the game? When all other characters I mentioned gets their AoE almost immediately out the gate?

The nerf was directed largely at combat anyways, so I'm focusing on it's combat aspects. The utility is nice, I'm not disputing, but it is also a post-spring circuit, that lets you harvest grass, twigs, and trees faster. In regards to it's utility, it's just QoL that speeds up chores, that had a chunk of the QoL removed.

Edited April 8 by Paridox9000

[doritosdamafia]

3 hours ago, Paridox9000 said:

I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting or missing something, but the spin cycle circuit kinda just feels like it got stealth-nerfed with the dizziness change. I don't mind having some drawback to it, but currently it's only benefits are the AoE and movement, which feels slow and awkward for combat. Currently, just holding F with a maxed out shadow maul deals 132 DPS. (This is without animation cancelling.)

However, with Gamma Circuits Tinkering II, 2 spin cycle circuits, and the same maul, WX's DPS drops to only 114, only 2 DPS better than a tentacle spike, and 16 DPS worse than a fresh hambat. A weapon easily obtained within your first 5 days is outcompeting an endgame weapon with 2 circuits, and 2 insight points invested into it.
 

I do agree that the spin cycle should have some intrinsic weakness for it's strengths, but given that currently it's a downgrade in single target situations, I feel that the dizziness mechanic, in it's current iteration is a bit heavy handed.

Personally, I think that extending the dizziness timer to a longer duration, for example, 15 seconds, but making it so that whenever you get hit while spinning, you loose 5 seconds off your spin duration, could make it a more interesting mechanic. (These are just example numbers, it's hard to exactly say how well this change would perform)

Alternatively, indefinite spin duration, but getting hit twice within 15 seconds makes WX dizzy (3-4 hits with 2 circuits maybe?)

Beyond that, the AoE is undeniably nice, however, outside of spider dens, hound waves, and the occasional boss, not many fights will have multiple mobs outside of farms which are usually safe anyways if properly designed.

However, the movement feels awkward and sluggish for fighting IMO, though I think I could get used to it playing with it more

i have done some similar test and what i notice is that the closer to dizzyness the lower the attack speed becomes, using a normal and golden axe, the initial damage is closer to 110 to 100, but drop off up to more or less 85 to 80, so at closer dizzyness we do less damage

Edited April 8 by doritosdamafia

[Well-met]

>tests dps on a single target

>ignores all utility and crowd application

>complains that its lackluster

??

[Paridox9000]

21 minutes ago, Well-met said:

>tests dps on a single target

>ignores all utility and crowd application

>complains that its lackluster

??

Chopping trees, and gathering grass and saplings faster is nice, I'm not refuting that, I'm talking about the combat applications. As for the crowd damage it offers, there's not too many hoard situations that the game throws at you, mostly being spiders and hounds. Given the circuit is locked to spring, and post moose goose (or a mosling), you can most likely deal with a hound wave or spider swarm.

In those environments, it does well, but single target is more important than AoE IMO, as most of the mid/end game is building, resource gathering (which there are other better options than the spin cycle anyways), and bosses, which don't have too many minions, aside from bee queen, FW, and maybe crab king, if you don't spam pan flutes.

[lovegrooove]

5 hours ago, Paridox9000 said:

I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting or missing something, but the spin cycle circuit kinda just feels like it got stealth-nerfed with the dizziness change. I don't mind having some drawback to it, but currently it's only benefits are the AoE and movement, which feels slow and awkward for combat. Currently, just holding F with a maxed out shadow maul deals 132 DPS. (This is without animation cancelling.)

However, with Gamma Circuits Tinkering II, 2 spin cycle circuits, and the same maul, WX's DPS drops to only 114, only 2 DPS better than a tentacle spike, and 16 DPS worse than a fresh hambat. A weapon easily obtained within your first 5 days is outcompeting an endgame weapon with 2 circuits, and 2 insight points invested into it.
 

I do agree that the spin cycle should have some intrinsic weakness for it's strengths, but given that currently it's a downgrade in single target situations, I feel that the dizziness mechanic, in it's current iteration is a bit heavy handed.

Personally, I think that extending the dizziness timer to a longer duration, for example, 15 seconds, but making it so that whenever you get hit while spinning, you loose 5 seconds off your spin duration, could make it a more interesting mechanic. (These are just example numbers, it's hard to exactly say how well this change would perform)

Alternatively, indefinite spin duration, but getting hit twice within 15 seconds makes WX dizzy (3-4 hits with 2 circuits maybe?)

Beyond that, the AoE is undeniably nice, however, outside of spider dens, hound waves, and the occasional boss, not many fights will have multiple mobs outside of farms which are usually safe anyways if properly designed.

However, the movement feels awkward and sluggish for fighting IMO, though I think I could get used to it playing with it more

How are you getting these numbers? Are you counting the downtime WX needs to recover from dizziness, while Maxwell can hold F? 

If so, then your tests are done in a vacuum. In real fights you have to dodge, or you get staggered. The spin-cycle makes you immune to getting staggered, and the attack speed is much higher, while you're actually attacking. If you test this circuit against anything other than a dummy, you will find it deals a lot more damage than holding F without it, even on single targets.

If you fight a high hp creature, like a clockwork enemy (900 hp) it takes 22 hits with a pick/axe to kill. You don't even reach the hit stun threshold. 

If you fight a boss like say deerclops, holding F without spinning results in 6 attacks before you have to start dodging. With the spin I got up to 9 attacks before I had to dodge. 

Also one thing to mention - you don't have to get dizzy at all. If you count your spin attacks, you can just stop attacking after 24 hits, and not be stunned while waiting for the dizzy meter to dissipate. 

[Paridox9000]

6 minutes ago, lovegrooove said:

How are you getting these numbers? Are you counting the downtime WX needs to recover from dizziness, while Maxwell can hold F? 

If so, then your tests are done in a vacuum. In real fights you have to dodge, or you get staggered. The spin-cycle makes you immune to getting staggered, and the attack speed is much higher, while you're actually attacking. If you test this circuit against anything other than a dummy, you will find it deals a lot more damage than holding F without it, even on single targets.

If you fight a high hp creature, like a clockwork enemy (900 hp) it takes 22 hits with a pick/axe to kill. You don't even reach the hit stun threshold. 

If you fight a boss like say deerclops, holding F without spinning results in 6 attacks before you have to start dodging. With the spin I got up to 9 attacks before I had to dodge. 

Also one thing to mention - you don't have to get dizzy at all. If you count your spin attacks, you can just stop attacking after 24 hits, and not be stunned while waiting for the dizzy meter to dissipate. 

(First of all, thanks for not being rude right out the gate)

Yeah I think the dummy thing, combined with my first in-game impressions being Bee Queen (a boss you tank and just hold F on) and Crab King (a boss you want to hold F on for as long as possible) kinda gave me a bad first impression(s).

Do we know how quickly the "dizzy meter" dissipates? I assumed it was a linear thing, is it exponential?

[lovegrooove]

2 minutes ago, Paridox9000 said:

(First of all, thanks for not being rude right out the gate)

Yeah I think the dummy thing, combined with my first in-game impressions being Bee Queen (a boss you tank and just hold F on) and Crab King (a boss you want to hold F on for as long as possible) kinda gave me a bad first impression(s).

Do we know how quickly the "dizzy meter" dissipates? I assumed it was a linear thing, is it exponential?

Oh you're welcome ❤️ Yeah this forum is savage at times.

I think it's somewhere between 1-2 seconds. And it seems to me that it functions like a linear meter that has to go down.  

It has happened many times, where I didn't wait long enough, that I could only perform 10, 15 or 20 attacks. 

I would really appreciate some insight into this aswell, from people who actually look at the code.

[doritosdamafia]

4 minutes ago, lovegrooove said:

Oh you're welcome ❤️ Yeah this forum is savage at times.

I think it's somewhere between 1-2 seconds. And it seems to me that it functions like a linear meter that has to go down.  

It has happened many times, where I didn't wait long enough, that I could only perform 10, 15 or 20 attacks. 

I would really appreciate some insight into this aswell, from people who actually look at the code.

 

15 minutes ago, Paridox9000 said:

(First of all, thanks for not being rude right out the gate)

Yeah I think the dummy thing, combined with my first in-game impressions being Bee Queen (a boss you tank and just hold F on) and Crab King (a boss you want to hold F on for as long as possible) kinda gave me a bad first impression(s).

Do we know how quickly the "dizzy meter" dissipates? I assumed it was a linear thing, is it exponential?

a guy have showed tha it takes 8 seconds to fully recover from dizzy, with another person complementing this info saing that you only need to wait eitgh seconds if you have got affected by the dizzy and without it's takes around six seconds, but i not 100% sure

 

[Paridox9000]

Huh, well fair enough, I do hope we find out how long the cooldown is, and hopefully a more clear in-game way to see how dizzy WX is.

[lovegrooove]

34 minutes ago, doritosdamafia said:

a guy have showed tha it takes 8 seconds to fully recover from dizzy, with another person complementing this info saing that you only need to wait eitgh seconds if you have got affected by the dizzy and without it's takes around six seconds, but i not 100% sure

I'm pretty sure it's nowhere near this long. 

I'm gonna open a server, get a timer, do some testing, and report back.

37 minutes ago, Paridox9000 said:

Huh, well fair enough, I do hope we find out how long the cooldown is, and hopefully a more clear in-game way to see how dizzy WX is.

I also really hope that we can see that meter somewhere in the game, that's a great idea! 

And I just tested this a bunch of times. 

I'm pretty sure now, that it takes about 3.3 seconds. It definitely takes longer than 3 seconds, and probably shorter than 3.5 seconds. It's tough getting values for deciseconds with a stopwatch app. 😅

Interestingly I also found, that it takes longer to recover that meter, if you stop at 24 spins and don't go dizzy, instead of just going dizzy. I imagine that this meter will pause for a very brief time, when you stop attacking, and then go down, whereas it will start draining immediately if you actually get dizzy. 

And you can do 7 spins, if you don't wait at all, and start attacking immediately after getting dizzy. Could be helpful, if you know you only need a couple of hits to fish the job. 

[Paridox9000]

Ahhh, yeah that's where I was getting the skewed numbers from then, fair enough!

So smidge over 3 second cooldown for a full recovery, and recovery is slightly faster if you get fully dizzy, compared to stopping early?

[lovegrooove]

2 minutes ago, Paridox9000 said:

Ahhh, yeah that's where I was getting the skewed numbers from then, fair enough!

So smidge over 3 second cooldown for a full recovery, and recovery is slightly faster if you get fully dizzy, compared to stopping early?

Exactly

[Paridox9000]

4 minutes ago, lovegrooove said:

Exactly

Ah, yeah that's not too bad then! Thanks for your testing man! ❤️

[AliceShiki]

Someone in another thread shared the specific mechanics of dizziness, btw:

Which is to say, the 3.3s number is super close to the correct one! Nice job on the testing!

And considering you're stopping early, it's probably closer to the number that makes sense on day to day usage.

 

 

[lovegrooove]

7 hours ago, AliceShiki said:

Someone in another thread shared the specific mechanics of dizziness, btw:

Which is to say, the 3.3s number is super close to the correct one! Nice job on the testing!

And considering you're stopping early, it's probably closer to the number that makes sense on day to day usage.

 

 

Thank you for sharing. 

What makes you think that 4 seconds is the correct number though? I see no hard evidence there, just people saying that it is so. 

I must have done the stop watch testing 30 times in a row, and it doesn't seem to me, that it takes quite as long as 4 seconds.

I know it might seem nitpicky to say that it is 0..5 seconds faster, but I think that really makes a difference in combat.

Hopefully all this will become unnecessary, if Klei just gives us a visual aid. 

 

Edit: What I mean by "no hard evidence", is that nobody in that thread says what method they used, to come up with this number. All I see is some equation with no reference.

Edited April 9 by lovegrooove

[AliceShiki]

10 hours ago, lovegrooove said:

Thank you for sharing. 

What makes you think that 4 seconds is the correct number though? I see no hard evidence there, just people saying that it is so. 

I must have done the stop watch testing 30 times in a row, and it doesn't seem to me, that it takes quite as long as 4 seconds.

I know it might seem nitpicky to say that it is 0..5 seconds faster, but I think that really makes a difference in combat.

Hopefully all this will become unnecessary, if Klei just gives us a visual aid. 

 

Edit: What I mean by "no hard evidence", is that nobody in that thread says what method they used, to come up with this number. All I see is some equation with no reference.

Most likely datamined values. They probably didn't test it at all, they just looked at the game data directly, since Klei doesn't really encrypt it, so anyone with Lua knowledge and who knows where to look can find this information.

If you're unsure though, you can always ask the person who provided the numbers directly and they can answer!