Should Skill Trees be just a buffs or a way to play characters differently?

[Kvetevk]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

Thats the point of balance no?
The original balance was you have to sacrifice things. 
I think its more work that they have to redo everything to fit this new system. 

It would not be balanced.

Either you can have absurd stats or use more wanted circuits than the ones that nobody uses, it is already balanced enough, having to choose which stats you want more or what utility you prefer more.

[DVGMedia]

Just now, Kvetevk said:

I thought I was the only one, at least when watching their videos.

 

2 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

people disagreeing with you is not their fault. this has been consistent with you.

The main problem is that everyone is right in their own minds. 
That is the truth  Everyone thinks that they are right and im not immune to that either. 
Thats the natural order of things and thats why disagreement happense because people think their way is whats better. 
But that still doesn't answer how to solve problems. People get so caught up in how to solve something Vs actually doing it.

I know my idea is already the least popular because people already got a taste of the good stuff. So taking that away would feel bad to them. 
And thats true for everything we are just wired that way... you can do something better but it would end up feeling worse. 
Thats just our brains. 

 that If a person chooses not to do something or chooses to do something thats on them right?

1 minute ago, Kvetevk said:

It would not be balanced.

Either you can have absurd stats or use more wanted circuits than the ones that nobody uses, it is already balanced enough, having to choose which stats you want more or what utility you prefer more.

Thats been wx that was his whole thing. Sacrificing for absurdity. And yet you can still get balanced stats. but i think the circuits are just kind of a red herring. I think people wanted to have wx do more and the tree actually does that. 
Its a dam good tree.  
But we are stuck here trying to balance circuits because wx got so much stuff for free. 

[BlueBananaKing]

i think your both right about some points but missing the bigger picture, beta circuits give upfront buffs while alpha circuits give compounding buffs, this means if you just increase the size of the bar you force the devs to nerf alpha circuits yet again to the point where they just wont be usable, and we will be back to the beta circuit only meta that we have in the live version.

but at the same time, i think you are right that universal slots are necessary to give some competition between alpha/beta circuits, without competition it kills the core design of picking what build is best for you, since you get the best of both worlds.

i think the best solution is one that reduces the slots per bar, but adds a universal slot bar to make up for it, granting the competition without killing one circuit type.  

[Kvetevk]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

The main problem is that everyone is right in their own minds. 
That is the truth  Everyone thinks that they are right and im not immune to that either. 
Thats the natural order of things and thats why disagreement happense because people think their way is whats better. 
But that still doesn't answer how to solve problems. People get so caught up in how to solve something Vs actually doing it.

I know my idea is already the least popular because people already got a taste of the good stuff. So taking that away would feel bad to them. 
And thats true for everything we are just wired that way... you can do something better but it would end up feeling worse. 
Thats just our brains. 

 that If a person chooses not to do something or chooses to do something thats on them right?

Im sorry if I got under your skin.

I don't think I'm completely right or wrong, I try to think how it could work in practice, yes, having unused slots in either parts could be used for having more variety, but it wouldn't change much if there was a limit, it would be practically the same as it is now with slightly better outcome, but I also think about the people that work on the game, making big change for a small, tiny outcome, is not worth it.

[DVGMedia]

1 minute ago, BlueBananaKing said:

i think the best solution is one that reduces the slots per bar, but adds a universal slot bar to make up for it, granting the competition without killing one circuit type.  

There was a person who set up a forum topic about that. 

where it was basically like 9 slots 3 alpha 3 beta  3gamma and 3 universal. 
and the upgrade for 1 slot added 1 to each making it back to 16 

[BlueBananaKing]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

There was a person who set up a forum topic about that. 

where it was basically like 9 slots 3 alpha 3 beta  3gamma and 3 universal. 
and the upgrade for 1 slot added 1 to each making it back to 16 

that person was me, but the upgrades were actually 4 skills, adding 4 points, one to each bar (max 17). (i suggested fusing the tinkering skills to open up 3 skill spots) 

[Kvetevk]

2 minutes ago, BlueBananaKing said:

i think your both right about some points but missing the bigger picture, beta circuits give upfront buffs while alpha circuits give compounding buffs, this means if you just increase the size of the bar you force the devs to nerf alpha circuits yet again to the point where they just wont be usable, and we will be back to the beta circuit only meta that we have in the live version.

We talked about them having a limit.

So you won't be able to stack more of the same at the same time.

4 minutes ago, BlueBananaKing said:

i think the best solution is one that reduces the slots per bar, but adds a universal slot bar to make up for it, granting the competition without killing one circuit type.  

That's actually good idea, backup circuits, it could even replace off by one, but I wonder if the affinity skills would have something similar.

[Mysterious box]

13 hours ago, Edible Coal said:

maybe just you, most people i see adores that

Personally I agree with him how they handled it was pretty stupid as it's just one day Willow woke up with fire powers when it could have been far more unique to have to use her knowledge to create similar effects via crafting items it was also a missed opportunity to flex some fire related crafts and even give some more synergy with Bernie beyond just making him a better tank.

[BlueBananaKing]

4 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

We talked about them having a limit.

So you won't be able to stack more of the same at the same time.

That's actually good idea, backup circuits, it could even replace off by one, but I wonder if the affinity skills would have something similar.

i feel like limits would be pretty hard to implement without feeling terrible.

diminishing returns only works for so long before it feels insulting, speeds 25/15/10 cant keep going forever because with 10 slots it becomes 25/15/10/5/2.5 and those last two would feel awful, making players limit their circuits by making them feel awful should be a last resort not the main choice.

and a hard cap like "only 3 speed circuits can be plugged in at once" feels like a stupid restriction, if i can see slots to plug it in i should be able to plug it in.

if you have any other ideas for how limits could be implemented id love to hear them though.

[Kvetevk]

2 minutes ago, BlueBananaKing said:

i feel like limits would be pretty hard to implement without feeling terrible.

diminishing returns only works for so long before it feels insulting, speeds 25/15/10 cant keep going forever because with 10 slots it becomes 25/15/10/5/2.5 and those last two would feel awful, making players limit their circuits by making them feel awful should be a last resort not the main choice.

and a hard cap like "only 3 speed circuits can be plugged in at once" feels like a stupid restriction, if i can see slots to plug it in i should be able to plug it in.

if you have any other ideas for how limits could be implemented id love to hear them though.

Also the bonuses from skills would stack, even if the stats would decrease the more you have, the tinkering bonuses would just keep stacking.

[DVGMedia]

6 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

Also the bonuses from skills would stack, even if the stats would decrease the more you have, the tinkering bonuses would just keep stacking.

Thats kind of why there was an idea that instead of them being flat bonuses that stack  they instead end up being the gamma circuits effects.
block being a part of Hardy  Chorus being a part of screech Redigest being part of gastro  And spin either being a part of electric or speed. 
Having more of a circuit would just buff those similarly to how the gamma buffs already work. 

just as an idea. Its just strange how they all fit together and gamma kind of just is its own unique thing

 

Edited April 7 by DVGMedia

[Milordo]

14 hours ago, Edible Coal said:

maybe just you, most people i see adores that

Absolute false. 

I remember how many Willow mains, like Variant, were mega disappointed, angry or sad. I don't know what the casual people think of her now that time has passed, but what cheggf said is not entirely wrong. I'm truly sad for people who loved Willow. She received so many different designs and iterations in the entire saga, that it's tiresome to see it.

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Personally I agree with him how they handled it was pretty stupid as it's just one day.... snip

Exactly

Edited April 7 by Milordo

[Edible Coal]

skill tree are always tailor made to the character that has it, is not hard to see that weaker character usually have much stronger skills while stronger character focus on qol skills

 

[Kvetevk]

So I was thinking about your idea @DVGMedia and I came up with something that could have benefits, be tamed and still have the same identity as the current system.
Off By One - instead of adding +1 charge to all 3 slots, it would take away (number) charges from alpha, beta (maybe even gamma) slots and make delta slot, that would have the taken charges from other slots + number of slot types (from Off By One).
For example: -2 alpha slots; -2 beta slots; +6 delta slots.

Delta slot could have both alpha and beta circuits, but only 1 at a time (cannot have 2 same circuits in delta slot), this would give players the ability to have more circuits while also gving them more creativity with their build without the ability to stack more than the limited number of current circuits.

Some skills and mechanics would need to change for the ability to choose where you want to plug your circuits, but I think this is the best middle ground option that I could come up with, the numbers can be adjusted if needed.
So what do you think?

Edited April 8 by Kvetevk