Understanding Nerf Sensibility

[UncleMikeE]

I’ve been a WX main for a long time. I’m no expert—average at best—I only have around 2000 hours in the game, but about 90% of that is with WX. I also play almost entirely solo, which I know shapes my perspective.

I don’t love the current state of the skill tree, but I don’t hate it either. Overall, I think it’s improved WX immensely compared to where he landed after the rework. There’s still plenty of time left in the beta, so I’m not ready to throw my hands up in despair just yet. That said, I understand why people are so vocal about the recent nerfs—it’s starting to feel like nerfs are just part of WX’s identity.

And to be clear: the rework was a major nerf. I’ve heard plenty of arguments to the contrary, but none have really convinced me. There’s no circuit combination that matches what WX originally had. For the low cost of 15 gears, you got 200 hunger, 300 sanity, and 400 health. In long-term worlds, calling down lightning with a telelocator staff was cheap and reliable—covering speed, light, and winter warmth all at once. I never had a Wickerbottom to play with, and I was still overcharged whenever I wanted. Not to mention, back then there was a time when you could pen up moslings indefinitely.

Being forced to choose between pieces of what used to be a complete kit is, by definition, a nerf.

Now with the current beta, we’ve seen two more rounds of nerfs. The first one completely justified. The latest one, however, took away the closest feeling I’ve had to “old WX” since the rework.

I think part of the reaction to this is psychological. Klei might have been better off releasing WX in an under-tuned state and scaling him up based on feedback. There would have been complaints early, sure—but probably not this kind of backlash. If you give someone a mansion for a week and then take it away and hand them a house, even a nice one, it feels like a loss. But if you start with a small apartment and then upgrade them to that same house, it feels like a win.

Ultimately, I do think the last round of nerfs should be reconsidered. Personally, I believe WX should be one of the strongest characters in the game. He was built by a scientist who understood and studied the Constant. If I’m not mistaken, he also built W.A.R.B.O.T.

I am excited to see what happens by the end of the beta and at the end of the day, I’ll still be a WX main. Even if I end up being one of the ones who always misses the good old days.

[AliceShiki]

4 minutes ago, UncleMikeE said:

I only have around 2000 hours in the game,

You're most likely in the top 0.1% of players in terms of playtime, tbh...

4 minutes ago, UncleMikeE said:

I’ve been a WX main for a long time. I’m no expert—average at best—

And you're probably in the top 1% of players skill-wise too.

The average player most likely has never opened Rifts and doesn't know that Ancient Fuelweaver exists.

[doritosdamafia]

man, i fell the same, and my biggest problems is that this update is more like wx is being molded for the skill tree instead of the skill tree being molded for them, i can't ignore the skill tree, because it brings so much chance to the base character that it's feels like im forced to use such a thing, i don't even care about being able to to have 3 different circuits slots, we got the bodies for that, so why instead of nerfing the circuits we chance how to use that better, most people see them more of a tp tool instead of different function wx, i realy hope the path of the wx skill tree take a better rout because right now it's very sad

[UncleMikeE]

19 minutes ago, doritosdamafia said:

 i don't even care about being able to to have 3 different circuits slots, we got the bodies for that

You and I differ a bit here. I think the circuit boards are what bring WX closest to his old identity. Honestly, the Alpha and Beta slots feel like they should’ve been part of the original rework.

If it were up to me, I’d move either the light or environmental circuits to the Gamma bar. There’s just a big part of me that wants access to all the abilities WX used to have at the same time. Call it nostalgia, call it greed—whatever you want. I know it’s not realistic, and I’m fine with that… but a guy can dream, lol.

The extra bodies are cool, but I could live without them. I’d rather have more flexibility with charging and swapping circuits than need to swap entire bodies.

Edited April 4 by UncleMikeE
Remove duplicated quite reply

[doritosdamafia]

19 minutes ago, UncleMikeE said:

You and I differ a bit here. I think the circuit boards are what bring WX closest to his old identity. Honestly, the Alpha and Beta slots feel like they should’ve been part of the original rework.

If it were up to me, I’d move either the light or environmental circuits to the Gamma bar. There’s just a big part of me that wants access to all the abilities WX used to have at the same time. Call it nostalgia, call it greed—whatever you want. I know it’s not realistic, and I’m fine with that… but a guy can dream, lol.

The extra bodies are cool, but I could live without them. I’d rather have more flexibility with charging and swapping circuits than need to swap entire bodies.

i understand your point, and the reason my view i like that is because the chassis are the part that bring more of attention for me, seeing the circuits getting nerfed tanks to the fact we can do "everything" with the extra slots don't feel justified, i feel like i am receive something new just to loose another thing that used and don't would want to loose, the chassis could be a good way to fix that in my vision, i will not call you greed, because even or visions being different, they come from the same place in my opinion

[Jakepeng99]

I’d say Hes even stronger than pre rework WX.

He has way more utility than just being a stat monster, which he still can be. Choosing which stats become monster level is way more fun than having no choice.

Besides, really all that mattered was he had 400 health as the Sainity and hunger increases were worthless. How the secondary effects make these stat buffs actually do something. Halved Sainity drain, reduced hunger drain. His health now has small damage resistance as a side bonus.

9 hours ago, UncleMikeE said:

Personally, I believe WX should be one of the strongest characters in the game. He was built by a scientist who understood and studied the Constant. If I’m not mistaken, he also built W.A.R.B.O.T.

He is one of the strongest characters.

If your trying to top Maxwell and Wurt, or make him on par, not every character needs to be at that level, especially if it’s possible they might get nerfs in a skilltree too.

[Radicaljoe]

33 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

He is one of the strongest characters.

big number doesn't = strong
WX is very convenient. But that's about it. not having to use a thermal, being fast, or having to use a lantern at night are neat, but ultimately not amazing nor powerful. 
and even compared to other characters, WX isn't doing great, ignoring the boring comparison to Wurt/maxwell. Look at someone like Wormwood, who gets so many interesting perks, like uh idk let's say, the ability to not need a lantern, or be fast, while also having lots of other fun skills.
The game is designed around convenience, as the world progresses, WX gets less and less useful. fridge circuit? everyone eventually can get a mooncaller. need light? cc crown. speed is probably the one perk WX has that can't be replicated, (if you're not counting beefalo.) WX has a negative progression with the world, as everything else gets more available, WX gets worse, because WX's main perks become common commodities, and WX is just losing out on any actually special abilities everyone else has.

[Kvetevk]

I think he is still in the same category of powerful characters but bit changed.

• instead of 200/300/400 stats like in DS, he can have 200/200/200 + small bonuses that increase the stats inderectly: slower hunger drain, slower sanity drain + sanity aura and a bit of protection from hardy circuits.
• and the lightning mechanic is now I would say better, back then you would have light, speed and heat for a limited time while struck by a lightning, now you can have 1 speed circuit, 2 illumination circuits and 1 heat circuit for basicly the same effect, but also you can change the heat one for more speed or whatever your heart desires.
• + more with the intorduction of gamma circuits that are still not finished.

Either way, he is still one of the best characters there is and he got new intresting mechanics that makes him more fun to play as.
(I know that WX78 is called they/them, but for me its easier to say he/him)

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, Radicaljoe said:

big number doesn't = strong
WX is very convenient. But that's about it. not having to use a thermal, being fast, or having to use a lantern at night are neat, but ultimately not amazing nor powerful. 
and even compared to other characters, WX isn't doing great, ignoring the boring comparison to Wurt/maxwell. Look at someone like Wormwood, who gets so many interesting perks, like uh idk let's say, the ability to not need a lantern, or be fast, while also having lots of other fun skills.
The game is designed around convenience, as the world progresses, WX gets less and less useful. fridge circuit? everyone eventually can get a mooncaller. need light? cc crown. speed is probably the one perk WX has that can't be replicated, (if you're not counting beefalo.) WX has a negative progression with the world, as everything else gets more available, WX gets worse, because WX's main perks become common commodities, and WX is just losing out on any actually special abilities everyone else has.

People are acting like WX is just stat circuits and the light one. He can store infinite items in his inventory (you said he doesnt scale), can recruit 10 followers for free, is the best tank in the game, can stagger bosses which makes bosses like frostjaw a breeze, he has good resource gathering with the axe circuit and the chorus box, he has map teleportation which rivals Wortox and Wanda (its free so id argue its better because the storage drones), hes the fastest character in the game (better than a beefalo), has true infinite light (wormwoods die to aoe and cost health), he is the best "scout", being able to move the fastest and having drones that can explore the map for you while you focus on other things, he is the best character for the caves and ruins, with infinite moggles being a fine option, food technically lasts 2x longer for him because the spoilage mechanic, gamma circuits are neat and great for teamplay, he has easy revives, can eat gears for easy healing, hunger and sainity, and Clockworks have a tiny aggro range to him. The thermal and ice circuit also give him freeze and fire resistance/immunity which is cool. He is the only character that can be immune to freezing which is great for Klaus/crab king and deerclops.

Thats all i can name to the top of my head, but he is really strong and fun. Stats of course are not nothing, halfing sainity drains, having tons of health and ect is powerful and you are undermining it. Late game, the Nightshade Axe will be his best weapon because the spin cycle circuit. Having infinite light without downsides means you can wear full armour, and attack without having to be in a confinded spot such as a lantern.

45 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

Either way, he is still one of the best characters there is and he got new intresting mechanics that makes him more fun to play as.

I feel like people dont judge perks by their strength, but by their flashiness.

WX's perks are definitely way better than Wormwood's. Also Wormwood's downsides are much worse.

Edited April 5 by Jakepeng99

[Kvetevk]

19 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I feel like people dont judge perks by their strength, but by their flashiness.

Then people wouldnt be mad at nerfs and be actually happy that they got more drones, chassis and new circuits.
I bet that most of these people that are annoyed that wx got balancing changes is, because there were 2 nerfs in a row.

[Jakepeng99]

1 hour ago, Kvetevk said:

Then people wouldnt be mad at nerfs and be actually happy that they got more drones, chassis and new circuits.
I bet that most of these people that are annoyed that wx got balancing changes is, because there were 2 nerfs in a row.

People were giving him tons of compliments. But now after a few nerfs suddenly he is worse than most characters apparently.

I wish they would balance characters more often. Both nerfs and buffs because it’s almost always buffs normally. You need both to have a well designed and fun character.

Like would be cool if they gave Woody a downside, and in turn buffed his non-moose wereform skills since they are the weakest in the tree and provide tiny value.

Edited April 5 by Jakepeng99

[Radicaljoe]

5 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

He can store infinite items in his inventory

not actually useful in most cases unless you're storing like a billion gears. Useful for moving a lot of logs when chopping trees I suppose. but once again, very limited timeframe of utility.

5 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

10 followers for free

>"free"
>looks inside
>work

still have to scan Pearl/ck for the circuit and then make it and spend the insight. I'd say thats equal effort of making a one man band (or just, getting meat from piders at that point)

 

5 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

best tank in the game

Wigfrid still has better damage resistance with lifesteal, which, once again having large number isn't doing anything for WX. 440, 1000, doesn't matter, that HP still has to be filled someway, so the only difference is time when you heal, you heal many times mid fight, or one large healing moment. (also anyone can wear marble suits)

5 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

can stagger bosses which makes bosses like frostjaw a breeze

I'm sure this is in reference to the electric circuit, in which case I will say the morning star was also buffed this beta and doesn't require you to get hit to shock the enemy.

the rest I can agree on, and those are cool perks WX can have that are harder to replicate. But once again, so many other characters have more going for them.

3 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

But now after a few nerfs suddenly he is worse than most characters apparently.

WX has BEEN worse than most characters. Klei gave WX an actually slightly enjoyable moment at the beginning of the beta, and then shot them again. 
Also keep in mind, that many people were holding their criticism until Gamma circuits released because they didn't want to judge WX with only 2/3 of the circuit perks available. And then gamma released, alongside nerfs, and no other changes to the tree. So I understand why many people got mad.

[Kvetevk]

8 minutes ago, Radicaljoe said:

WX has BEEN worse than most characters. Klei gave WX an actually slightly enjoyable moment at the beginning of the beta, and then shot them again. 
Also keep in mind, that many people were holding their criticism until Gamma circuits released because they didn't want to judge WX with only 2/3 of the circuit perks available. And then gamma released, alongside nerfs, and no other changes to the tree. So I understand why many people got mad.

The only thing he lacks is damage, which only 3 characters have: Wolfgang, Wanda and Wigfrid.

If overpowered means enjoyable, then Wes should not be fun to play as, but most skilled players like him, especially those who wants a challenge.

Also we are still missing gamma circuits and the affinity, which could be game changing.

[Jussatoon]

7 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

Also we are still missing gamma circuits and the affinity, which could be game changing.

1) We're not missing Gamma circuits, we have them already. What's more accurate to say is that we're hoping for more Gamma circuits, as well as buffs to the existing ones.

2) It doesn't feel right to rely so much on affinities to save a skill tree, especially when you consider that some people won't have access to them right away. 

[Radicaljoe]

Just now, Kvetevk said:

The only thing he lacks is damage, which only 3 characters have: Wolfgang, Wanda and Wigfrid.

I don't much care for damage. I don't think WX needs to do a lot of damage. However, I think different types of fighting are cool, I think that the spin circuit could work.

6 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

If overpowered means enjoyable, then Wes should not be fun to play as

Unfortunately, fun is subjective. 

7 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

could be game changing.

People also thought this of the original 4 Gammas added a bit ago. I personally will not be holding out for them until they come out, they likely won't solve the issues I have with the tree regardless. 

 

[Kvetevk]

Just now, Jussatoon said:

1) We're not missing Gamma circuits, we have them already. What's more accurate to say is that we're hoping for more Gamma circuits, as well as buffs to the existing ones. 

We dont have all of them and the ones we got are still going to get changed a bit.

1 minute ago, Jussatoon said:

2) It doesn't feel right to rely so much on affinities to save a skill tree, especially when you consider that some people won't have access to them right away. 

That's actually good, but if they are going to be fun abilities or mechanics like Willow got, then most people would be much happier.

1 minute ago, Radicaljoe said:

People also thought this of the original 4 Gammas added a bit ago. I personally will not be holding out for them until they come out, they likely won't solve the issues I have with the tree regardless. 

 

Gammas are base-kit, affinity requires last pre-rift bosses to be defeated.

Im not expecting much, but it still should be something nice.

[Jussatoon]

6 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

We dont have all of them 

Source?

[Kvetevk]

Just now, Jussatoon said:

Source?

My source is that I made it up.

Also I don't think we will only have 4 gamma circuits.

[Delta ONe]

Quote

I think part of the reaction to this is psychological. Klei might have been better off releasing WX in an under-tuned state and scaling him up based on feedback. There would have been complaints early, sure—but probably not this kind of backlash. If you give someone a mansion for a week and then take it away and hand them a house, even a nice one, it feels like a loss. But if you start with a small apartment and then upgrade them to that same house, it feels like a win.

Ultimately, I do think the last round of nerfs should be reconsidered. Personally, I believe WX should be one of the strongest characters in the game. He was built by a scientist who understood and studied the Constant. If I’m not mistaken, he also built W.A.R.B.O.T.

I am excited to see what happens by the end of the beta and at the end of the day, I’ll still be a WX main. Even if I end up being one of the ones who always misses the good old days.

I've been playing Don't Starve since January 2013, and I clearly remember when WX-78 became available. I instantly loved the character, and from that moment on, he became my favorite.

It would be really frustrating to have that old feeling again — the one where they changed WX into something much weaker. Deep down, I never really accepted that change.

The only thing I wanted in his skill tree was for WX to get a decent damage multiplier. Honestly, nothing else in his skill tree matters that much to me. I just wanted his fights to stop feeling so long and tedious. If the Klei team had started from that principle when designing his skill tree, it would already have been good enough for me.

I feel very unsatisfied with the recent nerfs, especially the one that reduced the damage of the Electric Circuit.

Walter is currently the strongest character in the game. He handles everything with mastery. Wortox can do almost everything Walter does, but at a much lower cost. Were the recent nerfs really necessary? When comparing WX-78 to other characters, I honestly believe there was no need for them at all.

Quote

man, i fell the same, and my biggest problems is that this update is more like wx is being molded for the skill tree instead of the skill tree being molded for them, i can't ignore the skill tree, because it brings so much chance to the base character that it's feels like im forced to use such a thing, i don't even care about being able to to have 3 different circuits slots, we got the bodies for that, so why instead of nerfing the circuits we chance how to use that better, most people see them more of a tp tool instead of different function wx, i realy hope the path of the wx skill tree take a better rout because right now it's very sad

Honestly, the direction this skill tree is taking is really disappointing. I hope the next characters don’t suffer the same fate. Just imagine the uproar when Maxwell’s skill tree comes out. Klei, please learn from your mistakes and take a good look at how bad WX-78’s skill tree is turning out.

[Cuernito.]

Gonna be honest with you i feel like wx-78 in this beta is stronger than the first version of him, you know before all the reworks he was just a wilson with speed, light and big stats and now he has much more utility and he can have almost the same stats so yeah i dont know why you feel the last nerfs are bad, they didnt change much.

And about the power of the robot well he can be pretty strong in early and mid game but its true that in late game almost all his circuits become obsolet cause the game's alterantives are much better like the lunar crown or strong armor and weapons, he needs at least 2 circuits or something to activate during late game that can compete with all the strong utility items, armor and weapons, I personally feel the robot is alike walter, both gameplays gives alternatives to normal weapons or items, walter uses his own mount, hi own storage pet, his own weapon and he doesnt feel like you need to craft stuff like teleports to move faster around map or to craft mele weapons, in fact i never craft a single mele weapon during my walter gameplays. With the robot i feel the same why would i need to craft a lamp or a miner hat when i can have a good alternative personal light system? why would i need a beefalo to move around map when i can move faster? why would i need to craft winter gear if i can get use my thermal circuit? But unlike walter the robot gameplay's rotten faster, eventuallly you say to yourself why Im even using light circuit or speed if i can get a yellow amulet and a walking cane? why sould i use circuits for themperature when i can use star staves? So i feel the only circuits right now that doesnt feel redundant late game are the stats circuits. In conclusion he really needs something for late game, someone wrote in a post that it could be great if he getts the ability to overcharge circuits maybe eating pure brilllance or using a enlightened shard to upgrade himself to make those circuits to do really powerful and nasty effects that can compete with late game gear.

1 hour ago, Delta ONe said:

Walter is currently the strongest character in the game.

This has to be one of the funniest jokes i have ever seen lmao, Its the first time i see someone saying walter is the strongest character XD. My Friend you should use other characters too, walter is ok and his gameplay is interesting using his own kit as an alternative to other things the normal game offers but he is not as strong as you are thinking, he can die really easily and even if you do a no hit run he doesnt feel powerful, his ammo doesnt do that much damage and boss fights usually takes longer than a really strong character like wolfy, and please dont take me wrong using the special ammon to slow down bee queen or Df while you use cursed ammo to kill them is funny but not really near the level of strong characters like wolfy, wigfrid or even wendy. 

Edited April 5 by Cuernito.

[Soul7k]

2 hours ago, Kvetevk said:

The only thing he lacks is damage, which only 3 characters have: Wolfgang, Wanda and Wigfrid.

this is incorrect. Wurt/Max has minions for damage. Walter has a gun. Wormwood has saladmanders, lunar guardian, and bramble husk specialist. Winona has Catapults. Wendy has Abigail. Woodie is a moose,etc.  just about every character has a different approach at achieving higher dps and ways to further buff it in their tree.

Edited April 5 by Soul7k

[Kvetevk]

15 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

this is incorrect. Wurt/Max has minions for damage. Walter has a gun. Wormwood has saladmanders, lunar guardian, and bramble husk specialist. Winona has Catapults. Wendy has Abigail. Woodie is a moose,etc.  just about every character has a different approach at achieving higher dps and ways to further buff it in their tree.

I ment direct damage that affects your damage, Wolfgang (2.0), Wanda (old + shadow gear), Wigfrid (1.25).
by your logic, Wilson is the most powerful because he can more easily make bombs and make bosses disappear

Edited April 5 by Kvetevk

[Delta ONe]

Quote

This has to be one of the funniest jokes i have ever seen lmao, Its the first time i see someone saying walter is the strongest character XD. My Friend you should use other characters too, walter is ok and his gameplay is interesting using his own kit as an alternative to other things the normal game offers but he is not as strong as you are thinking, he can die really easily and even if you do a no hit run he doesnt feel powerful, his ammo doesnt do that much damage and boss fights usually takes longer than a really strong character like wolfy, and please dont take me wrong using the special ammon to slow down bee queen or Df while you use cursed ammo to kill them is funny but not really near the level of strong characters like wolfy, wigfrid or even wendy. 

Edited 30 minutes ago by Cuernito.

It's not just DAMAGE that makes a character strong!

Wolfgang manages to accomplish a lot with few resources, which is impressive, but it's not all about defeating bosses, right?

[Jussatoon]

So, from what I've been seeing, in regards to WX-78's combat capabilities, the general consensus is that it's not a good idea to give them a way to outright increases their damage, but rather give them abilities that are unique, and just so happen to also give them an edge in combat, like the Spin-Cycle. Is this correct?

[Soul7k]

40 minutes ago, Kvetevk said:

I ment direct damage that affects your damage, Wolfgang (2.0), Wanda (old + shadow gear), Wigfrid (1.25).
by your logic, Wilson is the most powerful because he can more easily make bombs and make bosses disappear

its actually funny because I was going to include it, but decided against it but yes you are not wrong about Wilson, so yes everyone has a way to achieve higher dps

Edited April 5 by Soul7k