Should characters be compared to Overpowered characters for balance?

[Jakepeng99]

I see people complaining over WX nerfs by comparing them to Wurt. There is some I might want to see and check out to be changed, but I wanted to make my own thread because it’s kinda about the powercreep thing in general.

Thing is, Wurt is the most overpowered character. She can kill most raid bosses solo in 30 seconds easily (making them practically farms) , she gains bonus hunger from food and can live off kelp, she gains extra stats from merm king, including 10% damage resistance, reduced Sainity drain, and 5% more damage. She can ignore spring with Sun fish or skilltree, and she can ignore the other two seasons with fish too, thought they are difficulty to find. She gains infinite Sainity manipulation from Wickerbottom’s books, she can harvest all the resources she needs easily using merms and can easily kill the treeguards. She can make infinite food for other survivors by starting merm wars, and turn it into kelp and jam for herself. She can spawn a lunar zone for herself so insanity isnt a problem, and a shadow zone that makes her and all merms spawn shadow tentacles. She also gets mosquito stuff too ig.

On top of this she gets other niche upsides that end up mattering, like zero drowning penalty and walking in the swamp faster and danger free.

Why compare WX to Wurt when Wurt is the problem? Infact, why compare any character to Wurt? Compare her to any character it’s just gonna be the same. If we use this logic for Webber, he would end up being Wurt 2 with unkillable followers who deal tons of dps for cheap recruitment price. I believe 660hp followers with damage resistance, dodge chance, chance to deal more damage, fear immunity, cheap recruitment, kiting abilities, ability to either summon a shadow version on death (if they die) and have a chance to spawn shadow tentacles or have damage reflection and higher stats. There isn’t any cost past the initial setup which isnt that bad, and a few pieces of kelp with three kelp giving you 18 merms for a bit.

It’s Wurt that needs nerfed, not other characters that need buffed. I’d rather have more Maxwells, not more Wurts.

[whiteking]

I am curious about the level of players on the forum
If you think everyone can defeat all bosses, then weaken Wurt
But obviously, if wx78 can defeat the queen bee, there will be many people protesting against him

[Jakepeng99]

Just now, whiteking said:

I am curious about the level of players on the forum
If you think everyone can defeat all bosses, then weaken Wurt
But obviously, if wx78 can defeat the queen bee, there will be many people protesting against him

Not sure what you are saying.

Wurt has the both highest survivability and practically highest dps in the game.

[whiteking]

8 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Not sure what you are saying.

Wurt has the both highest survivability and practically highest dps in the game.

The reason is simple: as the boss becomes stronger, the character should also become stronger. If most players are unable to defeat the boss, it's not because Wurt is too strong, but because other characters are too weak. On the contrary, if most players can defeat the boss, it means that wx78 is a normal strength and wurt is too strong

Edited April 3 by whiteking

[Cassielu]

Of course it can only be called balanced if all the powerful characters are taken into account.

However Wurt is not at that level yet. She indeed powerful, but at high cost and without any unique functionality. I would rather say that the current top three are Wortox, Winona and Maxwell (with Wicker). Wurt was just... standard, in the end of Tier A, it is appropriate for me to use her as the benchmark to balance all the characters.

[Jakepeng99]

2 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

Of course it can only be called balanced if all the powerful characters are taken into account.

However Wurt is not at that level yet. She indeed powerful, but at high cost and without any unique functionality. I would rather say that the current top three are Wortox, Winona and Maxwell (with Wicker). Wurt was just... standard, in the end of Tier A, it is appropriate for me to use her as the benchmark to balance all the characters.

The high cost only really matters if you are speedrunning or something. You can get a bunch up in the first 10 days if you try.

She can farm bosses dont believe you know her true power

[Soul7k]

22 minutes ago, Cassielu said:

Of course it can only be called balanced if all the powerful characters are taken into account.

However Wurt is not at that level yet. She indeed powerful, but at high cost and without any unique functionality. I would rather say that the current top three are Wortox, Winona and Maxwell (with Wicker). Wurt was just... standard, in the end of Tier A, it is appropriate for me to use her as the benchmark to balance all the characters.

wurt is a bit strange when it comes to power due to having the ability to reach critical mass. can other characters not do the same with pigs and bunnymen?

Edited April 3 by Soul7k

[Jakepeng99]

5 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

wurt is a bit strange when it comes to power due to having the ability to reach critical mass. can other characters not do the same with pigs and bunnymen?

No, they can’t do the same with pigs and bunnymen. Not even close to the power. They are significantly weaker, limited by times of day, affected by fear, less health, less damage, and are way more expensive to recruit.

[Soul7k]

25 minutes ago, Jakepeng99 said:

No, they can’t do the same with pigs and bunnymen. Not even close to the power. They are significantly weaker, limited by times of day, affected by fear, less health, less damage, and are way more expensive to recruit.

ok fair enough

[nicolas103]

No. Not every character needs to be equal, or have similar strengths. "oH, bUt wOlFgAnG". That is irrelevant. Wx does NOT need to be Wolfgang 2.

What matters most for characters is how unique their kit is, how it changes the way you play/progress, which options it opens up, or more importantly; what you find to be fun.

 

Currently, Wx lacks almost all of these for me. He was and still is just 2x Food Duration + Infinite Moggles.

I get it though, and I feel peoples biggest concern is just how he's still the same.

[Creatorofswamps]

On the other hand, what's stopping Wilson from hiring a couple dozen Clockwork Bishops and killing any boss? I'm saying that Wurt is strong, but in order to maximize her power, she needs to invest resources and certain skills (as well as obtain a crown and a trident)

Edited April 3 by Creatorofswamps

[Jakepeng99]

1 minute ago, Creatorofswamps said:

On the other hand, what's stopping Wilson from hiring a couple dozen Clockwork Bishops and killing any boss? I'm saying that Wurt is strong, but in order to maximize her power, she needs to invest resources and certain skills (as well as obtain a crown and a trident)

Hiring clockworks is much harder than hiring merms. You need to plan on how you are going to stun them and stuff since they removed bishop friendly fire at some point. (Yeah electric fences work)

Anyway if your argument is clockworks are really op so Wurt can be, I don’t think this perspective works. I don’t really care enough if Wurt is Op or not anymore I just hope it doesn’t effect other aspects of the game, or more characters I like become like that.

[Creatorofswamps]

3 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Anyway if your argument is clockworks are really op so Wurt can be, I don’t think this perspective works. I don’t really care enough if Wurt is Op or not anymore I just hope it doesn’t effect other aspects of the game, or more characters I like become like that.

I rather meant that It's just that if you give a person unlimited freedom to do something, they will make it absolute, whether it's merms , Clockwork Bishop or the tentacles from book Wickerbottom

3 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Hiring clockworks is much harder than hiring merms. You need to plan on how you are going to stun them and stuff since they removed bishop friendly fire at some point. (Yeah electric fences work)

Merms are also not free (except for those in the swamp), you need to build houses, and you need fish/tentacle skin for them.

 

But in any case, I agree that character balancing should happen on its own, without relying on other characters.

Edited April 3 by Creatorofswamps