Wrapping things up.

[Milordo]

Welp. 

Time to wrapping things up. For what time is left and for the next "Ancient Echoes Part Two".

A constructively straightforward list for Klei of what comes to mind that must be done in this "arc". Let's discuss it here and tell me what other things I forgot to add or must be add.

1. Ruins, some parts of Caves like random no-sense nightmare fissures and Stalagmite terrain biome, new biome fumarole and Lunar Grotto+Lunar Archives+new giant whirlpool generation. It's time.
2. Great Depths Worm final touch ups. 1. Spawning/Despawning, 2. Punishment, 3. Fighting, (Maybe) 4. Loot
3. Fumarole biome. This is tricky to put it here, since it could be in working progress and we already have a confirmation that a new turf for the biome will be added, but we don't know for certain. Anyway: fumaroles auto-regeneration (it's the best way we found to "renew" them), maybe some other loot to boulderbough trees and wolfoisbestwolf's idea burning them shouldn't delete their vine loot, nightmare fissures or maybe with nightmare fissures instead, fusing together fumarole biome with stalagmite terrain biome that also has nightmare fissures. Two birds with a stone.
4. Atrium must be a random setpiece in the Ruins biomes, of which includes fumarole biome ( Stalagmite Terrain, LichenLand, Residential, Sacred, Military and Fumarole) instead of being a quick band-aid fix Klei did after Depths of Duplicity release, due to community pressure. It's the perfect place and the perfect time to do it good. 
5. Boulderboughs should be able to be waxed with Embalming Spritz.
6. Inconsistency of hard head armor not protecting you from small caves earthquakes 
7. Clean sweeper can now sweep the look of already placed potted fern and succulents.

 

Edited September 15, 2025 by Milordo

[Kacpert25]

2 minutes ago, Milordo said:

Atrium must be 100% an official setpiece in the fumarole biome, not RNG. It's the perfect place, instead of a quick band-aid fix Klei did after Depths of Duplicity release, due to community pressure. Now it's the perfect time to do it good. 

Nah, I like that there are three possible biomes where the tentacle leading to the Atrium can be found. It's not a huge number, and since the tentacle leading to the Atrium stands out from the other tentacles, finding the right tentacle in those three biomes isn't a big deal.

7 minutes ago, Milordo said:

tell me what other things I forgot to add or must be add.

Boulderboughs should be able to be waxed with Embalming Spritz.

[Milordo]

36 minutes ago, Kacpert25 said:

Boulderboughs should be able to be waxed with Embalming Spritz.

Added!

36 minutes ago, Kacpert25 said:

Nah, I like that there are three possible biomes where the tentacle leading to the Atrium can be found. It's not a huge number, and since the tentacle leading to the Atrium stands out from the other tentacles, finding the right tentacle in those three biomes isn't a big deal.

Hard disagree. 

It's not about having problems with finding Atrium. It's about design, gameplay, exploration, world building, difficulty, importance, modernize. Yes, all of this. How would you like it if Dragonfly was randomly between the grasslands and forests? How would you like it if Bee Queen was randomly between marsh biome and deciduous forest? How would you like it if Pearl doesn't have a proper island and could spawn on Moon quay island. Atrium is literally the ending of the game and should be treated with such more relevance and importance. Just look at the lunar side, witch is more modern, with Lunar grotto, Lunar archives and Lunar island. A complete different story. It's why many asked to rework the shadow quest btw. It doesn't make sense to be not atleast with some danger and defence (and before you say bishops, no. They die before you even load the chunk....). It's wrong for the Atrium to be up in a random bunnymen village with cute bunnies or an empty desert with just some 1-2 bats, and not down where Ruins are, which also make sense geographically. It doesn't make sense in the world of the game to have stones and ancient tables describing the Ancients near bunnymen villages. And it doesn't help either that Klei chosed again in 2024 those two random spots in a hurry, doing a rough quick band-aid fix job.

For now, I will not stretch the discourse more than it is. I hope I made myself clear on this, because it's important.

Howeverrrr, if you ask me "I like the RNG and the possibility. What about Atrium spawning in three or more possible Ruins biomes?" I would simply respond a fast fat YES. It's okay. No, it's even perfect if Atrium would be in a random possible Ruins biome. I edited it to be in line with this.

[Lovens]

2 hours ago, Milordo said:

Added!

Hard disagree. 

It's not about having problems with finding Atrium. It's about design, gameplay, exploration, world building, difficulty, importance, modernize. Yes, all of this. How would you like it if Dragonfly was randomly between the grasslands and forests? How would you like it if Bee Queen was randomly between marsh biome and deciduous forest? How would you like it if Pearl doesn't have a proper island and could spawn on Moon quay island. Atrium is literally the ending of the game and should be treated with such more relevance and importance. Just look at the lunar side, witch is more modern, with Lunar grotto, Lunar archives and Lunar island. A complete different story. It's why many asked to rework the shadow quest btw. It doesn't make sense to be not atleast with some danger and defence (and before you say bishops, no. They die before you even load the chunk....). It's wrong for the Atrium to be up in a random bunnymen village with cute bunnies or an empty desert with just some 1-2 bats, and not down where Ruins are, which also make sense geographically. It doesn't make sense in the world of the game to have stones and ancient tables describing the Ancients near bunnymen villages. And it doesn't help either that Klei chosed again in 2024 those two random spots in a hurry, doing a rough quick band-aid fix job.

For now, I will not stretch the discourse more than it is. I hope I made myself clear on this, because it's important.

Howeverrrr, if you ask me "I like the RNG and the possibility. What about Atrium spawning in three or more possible Ruins biomes?" I would simply respond a fast fat YES. It's okay. No, it's even perfect if Atrium would be in a random possible Ruins biome. I edited it to be in line with this.

It would make a lot of sense for the Atrium setpiece to spawn in one of the ruins themed biomes. It would fit aesthetically and thematically and would make a lot of sense progression wise. It probably shouldn't be something players stumble upon right away after loading into the caves and walking a couple of screens from the nearest cave entrance. 

Sadly I'm not sure it would be possible to change where it spawns for the existing worlds that already have the setpiece spawned in other biomes. I even remember when it was added, the setpiece did not retrofit into worlds that already had a random tentacle lead to the atrium. 

[lowercase skye]

3 hours ago, Milordo said:

How would you like it if Dragonfly was randomly between the grasslands and forests? How would you like it if Bee Queen was randomly between marsh biome and deciduous forest?

I'd love this actually! World gen having some patterns is good, but as it is right now it's way way too predictable where basically anything in your world can be. I'd love if Dragonfly had a few different places she could spawn, maybe with some new art for burnt plants and scorched grass turf, or Bee Queen's mini bee biome being able to spawn in many places across the world. It would be very nice if exploring the world had a sense of randomness to it, rather than discovery snowballing so quick because as soon as you recognize one pattern you can find several landmarks just based off of that.

[Milordo]

4 hours ago, Lovens said:

It would make a lot of sense for the Atrium setpiece to spawn in one of the ruins themed biomes. It would fit aesthetically and thematically and would make a lot of sense progression wise. It probably shouldn't be something players stumble upon right away after loading into the caves and walking a couple of screens from the nearest cave entrance. 

Sadly I'm not sure it would be possible to change where it spawns for the existing worlds that already have the setpiece spawned in other biomes. I even remember when it was added, the setpiece did not retrofit into worlds that already had a random tentacle lead to the atrium. 

Yeah, of course it will be for future worlds generated.

3 hours ago, lowercase skye said:

I'd love this actually! World gen having some patterns is good, but as it is right now it's way way too predictable where basically anything in your world can be. I'd love if Dragonfly had a few different places she could spawn, maybe with some new art for burnt plants and scorched grass turf, or Bee Queen's mini bee biome being able to spawn in many places across the world. It would be very nice if exploring the world had a sense of randomness to it, rather than discovery snowballing so quick because as soon as you recognize one pattern you can find several landmarks just based off of that.

That's....right too. 

But Atrium is not just a super boss, it's the end. My point still stands too, so if we all love more unpredictability in the randomness, then I guess the best road is to be random through Ruins biomes, which includes fumarole.

I'm thinking maybe to change again point 4 to remove the 100% fumarole.

[Kacpert25]

10 hours ago, Milordo said:

Hard disagree. 

It's not about having problems with finding Atrium. It's about design, gameplay, exploration, world building, difficulty, importance, modernize. Yes, all of this. How would you like it if Dragonfly was randomly between the grasslands and forests? How would you like it if Bee Queen was randomly between marsh biome and deciduous forest? How would you like it if Pearl doesn't have a proper island and could spawn on Moon quay island. Atrium is literally the ending of the game and should be treated with such more relevance and importance. Just look at the lunar side, witch is more modern, with Lunar grotto, Lunar archives and Lunar island. A complete different story. It's why many asked to rework the shadow quest btw. It doesn't make sense to be not atleast with some danger and defence (and before you say bishops, no. They die before you even load the chunk....). It's wrong for the Atrium to be up in a random bunnymen village with cute bunnies or an empty desert with just some 1-2 bats, and not down where Ruins are, which also make sense geographically. It doesn't make sense in the world of the game to have stones and ancient tables describing the Ancients near bunnymen villages. And it doesn't help either that Klei chosed again in 2024 those two random spots in a hurry, doing a rough quick band-aid fix job.

For now, I will not stretch the discourse more than it is. I hope I made myself clear on this, because it's important.

Howeverrrr, if you ask me "I like the RNG and the possibility. What about Atrium spawning in three or more possible Ruins biomes?" I would simply respond a fast fat YES. It's okay. No, it's even perfect if Atrium would be in a random possible Ruins biome. I edited it to be in line with this.

Well, when you put it that way, I have to agree with you. The tentacle leading to the Atrium would fit best in the fumarole biome.
However, I'm not in favor of the tentacle being able to spawn in ruin biomes, as that would further limit cave exploration to a few biomes. At the very least, the player would have to visit one more biome instead of the standard Ruins and Archives.

[Milordo]

1 hour ago, Kacpert25 said:

Well, when you put it that way, I have to agree with you. The tentacle leading to the Atrium would fit best in the fumarole biome.
However, I'm not in favor of the tentacle being able to spawn in ruin biomes, as that would further limit cave exploration to a few biomes. At the very least, the player would have to visit one more biome instead of the standard Ruins and Archives.

Okay, sure. What do you have in mind? Because I too have to agree with you, that Atrium was conceived as a "secret" in 2015, by exploring random tentapillars, therefore forcing the player to visiting one more biome instead as you said, and btw, even the new 2024 version fails in this. If the Atrium tentapillar setpiece spawns only on Ruins, this means it could spawn on these biomes (I added fumarole and stalagmite for the fixed hypothesis too) 

[  Fumarole, Stalagmite Terrain, LichenLand, Residential (the village biome with splumonkeys), Sacred, Military ]

For me this seems already a lot, but tell me what else you have in mind.

[Milordo]

Added @Jenny 05 Justic feedback about hard head armor!  

[Semind]

Please do not put the Atrium tentapillar in nightmare cycle land thank you

[Terser]

3 minutes ago, Semind said:

Please do not put the Atrium tentapillar in nightmare cycle land thank you

you can just wear bone helm on the way out if you're worried about nightmares, it still works even on the shadow rift upgraded lurking nightmare

[Milordo]

13 minutes ago, Semind said:

Please do not put the Atrium tentapillar in nightmare cycle land thank you

Why? Terser already gave you an easy solution, if it is for farming ancient fuelweaver. Also you can even just wait for the cycle to end? What's the problem.

[Semind]

Okay, then remove the Broken Bishops

[Terser]

4 minutes ago, Semind said:

Okay, then remove the Broken Bishops

If I remember right the ones near the atrium tentacle do not respawn, so they shouldn't be an issue other than when getting into atrium for the first time, and I think it would be reasonable to either get them when nightmare cycle is off or kill the nightmares that would be close enough to the bishops to aggro

Edited September 12, 2025 by Terser

[Milordo]

8 minutes ago, Semind said:

Okay, then remove the Broken Bishops

I mean, sure 🤷‍♂️. I have no problem with it.

I find it strange that you want them removed. May I ask why? Just curious.

3 minutes ago, Terser said:

From what i remember the ones near the atrium tentacle don't respawn, so they shouldn't be an issue other than when getting into atrium for the first time, and i think that it would be reasonable to either get them when nightmare cycle's off or kill the nightmares that would be close enough to the bishops to aggro

You remember correctly Terser. They're a one time thing and I agree with you.

EDIT: I also want to add another thing to your comment Terser. Depending on the hypothetical biome, the Atrium tentapillar could spawn on the splumonkeys villages, stalagmite terrain and lichenland. Places where splumonkeys, cave spiders and depths worms could already do the job for you lol.

Edited September 12, 2025 by Milordo

[CyberSkink]

17 hours ago, Milordo said:

Welp. 

Time to wrapping things up. For what time is left and for the next "Ancient Echoes Part Two".

A constructively straightforward list for Klei of what comes to mind that must be done in this "arc". Let's discuss it here and tell me what other things I forgot to add or must be add.

1. Ruins, some parts of Caves like random no-sense nightmare fissures and Stalagmite terrain biome, new biome fumarole and Lunar Grotto+Lunar Archives+new giant whirlpool generation. It's time.
2. Great Depths Worm final touch ups. 1. Spawning/Despawning, 2. Punishment, 3. Fighting, (Maybe) 4. Loot
3. Fumarole biome. This is tricky to put it here, since it could be in working progress and we already have a confirmation that a new turf for the biome will be added, but we don't know for certain. Anyway: fumaroles regeneration (it's the best way we found to "renew" them), maybe some other loot to boulderbough trees, nightmare fissures or maybe with nightmare fissures instead, fusing together fumarole biome with stalagmite terrain biome that also has nightmare fissures. Two birds with a stone.
4. Atrium must be 100% an official setpiece in the fumarole biome, not RNG. It's the perfect place, instead of a quick band-aid fix Klei did after Depths of Duplicity release, due to community pressure. OR it could be a random setpiece in the Ruins biomes, of which includes fumarole biome ( Stalagmite Terrain, LichenLand, Residential, Sacred, Military and Fumarole). Now it's the perfect time to do it good. 
5. Boulderboughs should be able to be waxed with Embalming Spritz.
6. Inconsistency of hard head armor not protecting you from small caves earthquakes 

 

1. I havent studied the cave generation that hard, so props to you for figuring it out/researching it

2. I think the hostile flare would be useful here since it's not just a light source but also an explosive of sorts

3. that could be interesting...

4.I honestly like the ability to track the atrium, it would give a lot of players the oppourtunity to learn the generation easier, but that's just my opinion

5. true

6. also true

7. how are you holding up? I wanted to check on you because it would be nice to converse with you and how you feel about this update. Also this is kinda jarring for me as well, I'm not used to having updates roll out so quickly... it's strange.

[Semind]

38 minutes ago, Milordo said:

I mean, sure 🤷‍♂️. I have no problem with it.

I find it strange that you want them removed. May I ask why? Just curious.

You remember correctly Terser. They're a one time thing and I agree with you.

EDIT: I also want to add another thing to your comment Terser. Depending on the hypothetical biome, the Atrium tentapillar could spawn on the splumonkeys villages, stalagmite terrain and lichenland. Places where splumonkeys, cave spiders and depths worms could already do the job for you lol.

You're proposing to make it harder to access the Atrium, it's that simple. Also Bone Helm won't save you from shadow splumonkeys, no?

Edit: Let me be clear, this isn't a "here's why it's bad rhetorically" reply. Your reasoning makes sense.

My side of it is "this will make the game worse for me" so I'm just taking the liberty to voice my opinion, that's all.

Edited September 12, 2025 by Semind

[Milordo]

1 hour ago, CyberSkink said:

1. I havent studied the cave generation that hard, so props to you for figuring it out/researching it

2. I think the hostile flare would be useful here since it's not just a light source but also an explosive of sorts

3. that could be interesting...

4.I honestly like the ability to track the atrium, it would give a lot of players the oppourtunity to learn the generation easier, but that's just my opinion

5. true

6. also true

7. how are you holding up? I wanted to check on you because it would be nice to converse with you and how you feel about this update. Also this is kinda jarring for me as well, I'm not used to having updates roll out so quickly... it's strange.

1. Thanks. I'm always been part of the #Caves+Ruinsteam

2. Here for hostile flares.

You can follow the discussion, it's not too long.

3. 👍

4. For me it's indifferent if Atrium would be 100% only on one place or a bit more randomly. I like both gameplay. What I can't stand is objectively how it's poorly treated and pale in comparison to the care and attention that received lunar quest. Plus all the other motives I already said, bla bla bla.... but it seems people like Kacpert, skye and others want more roguelike exploration (and I mean...How can you blame them?), so let random Atrium in the Ruins be.

5. and 6. yey.

7. Lol, thanks for asking. I already said since the first day of the beta, that I like the update very much. It's the first "Ruins" update ever, so I expected big things in new content department and it didn't disappointed me there, with fumaroles and the new trees. I just want Klei to not stick their heads in the sand, go back and take this perfect opportunity and time to also fix some incomplete work left, that can affect new stuff, like GDW, and some big unfinished business, you know what... And it's not random, because fumarole biome and all the new Ancients stuff (pls no spoiler) will influence hard the game and make the big elephant in the room even bigger. Apart from that, I'm still busy with work and coding exams, they're killing me, but I can't complain. I love coding.

Edited September 12, 2025 by Milordo

[Milordo]

5 hours ago, Semind said:

You're proposing to make it harder to access the Atrium, it's that simple. Also Bone Helm won't save you from shadow splumonkeys, no?

Edit: Let me be clear, this isn't a "here's why it's bad rhetorically" reply. Your reasoning makes sense.

My side of it is "this will make the game worse for me" so I'm just taking the liberty to voice my opinion, that's all.

I mean, I guess difficulty? Maybe it's me and my long experience, I don't see how two bishops increase the difficulty, especially if they're a one time thing, and me and terser already gave you some solutions. You can take all the time you want to eliminate them or they will be auto-removed by others depending on the RNG. No bone helm doesn't save you from splumonkeys, but it's an armor and also....well. What's the problem with splumonkeys? You burn their nest and then kill them or be killed by other things, if they're near the atrium tentapillar. Same thing for depths worms and cave spiders. Unironically the tentapillar is the annoying thing for me lol, but that's another discussion.

Anyway sure, don't worry. I'm not against removing the two bishops. It's indifferent for me. 

Edited September 12, 2025 by Milordo

[Milordo]

Added @WolfoIsBestWolf's idea!

[Milordo]

Added point 7 from @Frosty_Mentos discussion