Medium sized skill tree ramble (this is actual feedback I swear)

[Omel-ette]

FIrst of all I need to clarify, this isn't just dumping on skill trees, I know they are a bit controversial, especially among veterans, and I have my issues, but overall I really don't dislike them, I just wish they were a bit different. I'm also aware this is probably not going to really do much, my single post won't make KLei change how they work, but I figured I should speak up with how I feel, maybe some people feel the same.
I hadn't played don't starve for a while, and only recently got back to it, so I'm not all up to date with every skill tree, that said, this isn't really relevant for this rant as I'm not here to complain about the actual content of the trees, even if I do have some strong opinons on some, I just figured I should be transparent about it.

Main issues:
Let's cut to the chase, I have two main issues with them, not getting into balancing (for the most part):
- The way you interact with the skill tree interface.
- The actual progression of gaining said skills.

The most important one to me is actually the latter so I'll start with that one.

Skill progression:
Currently how you build your skill tree depends on just playing for honestly a fairly decent amount of (ingame) days, to get enough insight to move through the tree. The system does its job, it rewards you for playing, but it feels like it also rewards you for turtling, which don't starve, at least single player, heavily tried to avoid. It doesn't reward you for interacting with the world or let's more experienced players get them at a faster rate, it's just something you see every few days while you succesfully exist. It reminds me of how when the original game was on development, having achievements like surviving a couple of nights had players just stay still near a campfire to get it done, admittedly this is far from the same scenario, but it also doesn't feel like it tries to avoid falling into the same pitfalls either.
Now, just giving it more objectives isn't really the solution, I like the final bosses ones, they fit thematically and are hard enough where most players won't immediately drop everything to do them, but they can't be the only ones, ideally I think insight should work similar to the scrapbook, where it rewards you for doing stuff, but doesn't point you to any direction, just let's you explore and after doing so, gives you the info. I don't really have a clear solution, but I think this is something that could really use some work.

This is not over however, still regarding the progression aspect, not sure how people feel about this, but I am not big on how trees stay through worlds, I understand why it does that currently, since you have to spend a couple of hours to even get them, so it would be kind of ridiculous if you lost them on the next world, but it completely breaks the progression.
Not trying to get into anything specific, but just having skills you gain for spending multiple days alive and even defeat some of the toughest enemies of the game on day 1 of a different worlds feels almost unintentional. Ideally, if insight was something you had more control over, you could try to maximize your gain of it on the first few days to still complete the tree very fast, but not start with it. Similar to rushing the ruins on the first few days to obtain endgame loot, just probably a bit friendlier since not every skill is as gamebreaking, just nice buffs (some still are though).
Perhaps some skills could still remain on other worlds, so the character doesn't lose the additions that brought them back new life, but still keep most of it unlockable so there is a sense of progression, although that begs the question, if some of the additions are this impactful to the feel of a character, why are they not just new default abilities? not really the point I'm trying to make, but I think it is something to think about.

User interface for the skill trees:
Finally, regarding the interaction, I just kind of wish it was a structure or some item, it feels kind of weird to have it be a menu, like there is nothing inherently wrong about it, and considering it is a character trait more so than world specific it is a reasonable design choice, but in my ideal game where skilltrees are world progression, you'd need some structure or item to interact with them to better add to the ingame progression feel of it, again, thinking of it similar to the ruins tools having the specific crafting table, or even just the cookbook being an actual ingame item you can interact with.


TLDR; Skill trees are a fine enough mechanic, but I am not a fan of how obtuse and turtle-y they are to unlock, plus getting them at the start of a world really messes things up, ideally they'd be more leniant in how you get it so you could rush them if you want the skills early on, but still be per world so it feels more like natural progression.

[lowercase skye]

20 minutes ago, Omel-ette said:

which don't starve, at least single player, heavily tried to avoid.

Don't Starve had a near identical mechanic of gaining EXP towards character unlocks by simply surviving. Before Reign of Giants, it only took 80 days of combined survival to unlock all of those characters, which could be spent dying repeatedly while getting nothing done, or safely sitting by your fire pit in a base. If the ability to hypothetically turtle in base to gain skill points is considered a flaw, then it's one that's been baked into the series' most basic form of progression for 12 years.

That being said, until this post, I've never even considered the idea of sitting in base surviving as safely as possible while waiting for skill points to accumulate, and I've never actually seen or heard of anyone doing that, so I think it's not really a problem.

[Omel-ette]

36 minutes ago, lowercase skye said:

Don't Starve had a near identical mechanic of gaining EXP towards character unlocks by simply surviving. Before Reign of Giants, it only took 80 days of combined survival to unlock all of those characters, which could be spent dying repeatedly while getting nothing done, or safely sitting by your fire pit in a base. If the ability to hypothetically turtle in base to gain skill points is considered a flaw, then it's one that's been baked into the series' most basic form of progression for 12 years.

I still would consider it a flaw, yes, most other aspects were specifically stated to be design around avoiding turtling, some of the most iconic mechanics like hounds were added for that reason, but that is a fair compairision for sure, hadn't really thought of it that way.

Regarding the second point, I didn't exactly mean it like that, entirely just staying in base is not really as common practice besides people that just want to get it over with so they can get the full tree relatively easy, assuming they don't just cheat at that point, but stilI for the other case, it doesn't incentivice you to do anything either, you could argue it shouldn't incentivice you, and it is fine as a passive mechanic that goes by while you do other things, but for something as impactful as most skill trees, I think it is fair to view it in a similar lense as getting gear or crafting stations, and so should be comparable in the method for obtaining it too.

[Omel-ette]

I want to expand a bit on the last part of my previous comment.

The current method of obtaining it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive to that feeling, you still have to go through the various stages of the tree branch for the stronger skills so there is some progression, my issue comes more so in how you have little control over getting it.

With turtling I dont mean staying still, I am using it in the sense that it rewards conformity, if you have a solid base and food source, you're not forced to go out of your way to get said skills, you can just wait them out doing small tasks. It isn't necessarily a bad way to play, but most stuff that impacts a world and your power in it requires your input to get it. I do see how it is similar to character unlocking, being not only similar to get, but both affecting playstyle, but Id still separate them since there are skills that directly affect ingame progression and the power of your character, opposed to new characters being mostly just alternatives, even if the balance is far from perfect.

[Swiyss]

I have to be honest here. When first skill trees came out, I was and advocate for this. I wanted it to be like this as well, and guess what; I have a pool asking people how they feel about changing the insight mechanic a bit, so one would receive insight quicker by doing in-game actions like killing a boss, or acquiring certain new material, or crafting a new item, and I remember that the majority of people, like more than 70% of them wanted this into the game. It would be actually VERY GREAT if klei took a look at this. This is something that not only would increase the feel of skill trees, but allow the new player to be more familiar with the game quicker - and I know this one is quite an issue still currently-.

As for the interface problem, you're completely right man, this game suffers from something that the developers might not feel like is that important, but it's the feeling of it. Like, realistically speaking, how would a survivor randomly get those in-game skins? Sure it don't make much sense, until you realize that it is at least still possible that they made that into the game. Like you can see how they got the gorge skins, and how the swashbuckler ones actually make sense. The main idea though with skill trees is the fact that it DOES feel a bit weird having an integrated interface for it, but without an actual explanation as to how they achieved it rather than spending time in the constant, which is not that really thought out.

For that, my suggestion to Klei is to make it so there's not an actual structure for insight, but rather a better lore explanation as to how they got their skills.

*Killing the ancient fuelweaver unlocks the shadow affinity, and that makes sense.

*But why would surviving 5 or 10 days get me a bigger torch range on Wilson?

So if they can, I wish there were more than just, surviving in the constant by days. The design currently is not intuitive, and not fun. To have to wait out the days to get the skills is really boring. They SHOULD change it to add SOMETHING that we can make in-game to actually get insight quicker. Current design will get you just passively waiting the days to get the skills, and sometimes, the skills are not even worth the wait too.

[crushcircuit]

On 3/20/2025 at 1:51 AM, Omel-ette said:

This is not over however, still regarding the progression aspect, not sure how people feel about this, but I am not big on how trees stay through worlds, I understand why it does that currently, since you have to spend a couple of hours to even get them, so it would be kind of ridiculous if you lost them on the next world, but it completely breaks the progression.
Not trying to get into anything specific, but just having skills you gain for spending multiple days alive and even defeat some of the toughest enemies of the game on day 1 of a different worlds feels almost unintentional. Ideally, if insight was something you had more control over, you could try to maximize your gain of it on the first few days to still complete the tree very fast, but not start with it. Similar to rushing the ruins on the first few days to obtain endgame loot, just probably a bit friendlier since not every skill is as gamebreaking, just nice buffs (some still are though).
... if some of the additions are this impactful to the feel of a character, why are they not just new default abilities? not really the point I'm trying to make, but I think it is something to think about.

this whole situation is really hard to touch on because for some characters, their skill trees provide basic quality of life that make playing the character tolerable.

Wortox, for instance, feels like a slog for me to play without getting the "lifted spirits" branch that improves his teleportation efficiency. this also already has its own built-in progression - you have to explore the entire map in order to fully benefit from capricious movement. i would greatly dislike having to spend the time to get that skill again and again in each server i join

it would be incredibly nice if some skills like this were just base kit, so there's more room for more ground-breaking skills to be added. otherwise, some characters are just getting refreshes in the disguise of a skill tree.

i also think that the fact there's still no proper way to respec skill trees is quite annoying. there should absolutely be a different, less expensive way than the celestial portal. having to use it so often just to pick the same character again feels rather silly. flexibility in choosing builds should be actively encouraged IMO, especially when some characters have skills specifically intended for early game.

[Omel-ette]

On 3/24/2025 at 11:12 AM, crushcircuit said:

this whole situation is really hard to touch on because for some characters, their skill trees provide basic quality of life that make playing the character tolerable.

Yeahhh, this is like the main holdup when acknowledging the issues with skill tree progression, because some are genuinely just actual new and useful features for characters that honestly should just be on by default, it feels kind of worse to not have them on now and it makes people refuse the idea of skill trees not being per account as having to spend another bunch of days just to get a new basic feature feels terrible, but other skills are so clearly just net positives, like woodie straight up not being affected by full moons for example.

If it was up to me I would honestly just have them as actual new abilities and keep the skill trees to only upgrades, but I understand they would probably not do that, even if they actually touch up skill trees, so I think there could be like permanent skills you unlock once while the rest remain unlockable every world, still not ideal imo as some players would just have advantages from the get go, plus new players might think a character is more barebones than it is due to missing the extra abilities, but it's better than having the new mechanics locked every run so I'd take that if I could.

[hybird]

On 3/20/2025 at 6:21 PM, Omel-ette said:

FIrst of all I need to clarify, this isn't just dumping on skill trees, I know they are a bit controversial, especially among veterans, and I have my issues, but overall I really don't dislike them, I just wish they were a bit different. I'm also aware this is probably not going to really do much, my single post won't make KLei change how they work, but I figured I should speak up with how I feel, maybe some people feel the same.
I hadn't played don't starve for a while, and only recently got back to it, so I'm not all up to date with every skill tree, that said, this isn't really relevant for this rant as I'm not here to complain about the actual content of the trees, even if I do have some strong opinons on some, I just figured I should be transparent about it.

Main issues:
Let's cut to the chase, I have two main issues with them, not getting into balancing (for the most part):
- The way you interact with the skill tree interface.
- The actual progression of gaining said skills.

The most important one to me is actually the latter so I'll start with that one.

Skill progression:
Currently how you build your skill tree depends on just playing for honestly a fairly decent amount of (ingame) days, to get enough insight to move through the tree. The system does its job, it rewards you for playing, but it feels like it also rewards you for turtling, which don't starve, at least single player, heavily tried to avoid. It doesn't reward you for interacting with the world or let's more experienced players get them at a faster rate, it's just something you see every few days while you succesfully exist. It reminds me of how when the original game was on development, having achievements like surviving a couple of nights had players just stay still near a campfire to get it done, admittedly this is far from the same scenario, but it also doesn't feel like it tries to avoid falling into the same pitfalls either.
Now, just giving it more objectives isn't really the solution, I like the final bosses ones, they fit thematically and are hard enough where most players won't immediately drop everything to do them, but they can't be the only ones, ideally I think insight should work similar to the scrapbook, where it rewards you for doing stuff, but doesn't point you to any direction, just let's you explore and after doing so, gives you the info. I don't really have a clear solution, but I think this is something that could really use some work.

This is not over however, still regarding the progression aspect, not sure how people feel about this, but I am not big on how trees stay through worlds, I understand why it does that currently, since you have to spend a couple of hours to even get them, so it would be kind of ridiculous if you lost them on the next world, but it completely breaks the progression.
Not trying to get into anything specific, but just having skills you gain for spending multiple days alive and even defeat some of the toughest enemies of the game on day 1 of a different worlds feels almost unintentional. Ideally, if insight was something you had more control over, you could try to maximize your gain of it on the first few days to still complete the tree very fast, but not start with it. Similar to rushing the ruins on the first few days to obtain endgame loot, just probably a bit friendlier since not every skill is as gamebreaking, just nice buffs (some still are though).
Perhaps some skills could still remain on other worlds, so the character doesn't lose the additions that brought them back new life, but still keep most of it unlockable so there is a sense of progression, although that begs the question, if some of the additions are this impactful to the feel of a character, why are they not just new default abilities? not really the point I'm trying to make, but I think it is something to think about.

User interface for the skill trees:
Finally, regarding the interaction, I just kind of wish it was a structure or some item, it feels kind of weird to have it be a menu, like there is nothing inherently wrong about it, and considering it is a character trait more so than world specific it is a reasonable design choice, but in my ideal game where skilltrees are world progression, you'd need some structure or item to interact with them to better add to the ingame progression feel of it, again, thinking of it similar to the ruins tools having the specific crafting table, or even just the cookbook being an actual ingame item you can interact with.


TLDR; Skill trees are a fine enough mechanic, but I am not a fan of how obtuse and turtle-y they are to unlock, plus getting them at the start of a world really messes things up, ideally they'd be more leniant in how you get it so you could rush them if you want the skills early on, but still be per world so it feels more like natural progression.

It's probably too late to make changes but in each world starting with none then as you kill bosses you get them like one per boss till you max it out