Icker rounds makes walter uninteresting

[Steorra]

5 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

when sisturn 3 isnt remotely similar to what i said

Where? If you don't like Sisturn III you could don't use it. I see no problem here.

5 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

, but I feel like if we started arguing this way then a lot of the characters would lose their charm and color.

Not me. Blame who bring the "if you don't like it just don't use it" first.

[WilsonHiggs]

12 hours ago, Well-met said:

ickers are end game and out of reach to everyone who isnt capable of rushing fuelweaver on year 1.

the effectiveness is justified by how late you get them

You get them when you trigger a new series of events that are supposed to be difficult. Doesnt make sense to make pre and post rift fights a cake walk as such cheap cost

You also unlock weapons and armors but these weapons dont dela 1000 damage perk hit neither the armors have 200% protection

[Catuna_]

16 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

What I'm concerned about is that "it's too easy to slow down enemies to a neutralize level for 30 seconds with just Slow Down Rounds," and "not just bosses where slowing is essential, it works on about half of the bosses." (My topic about that)

I will reply to your topic to keep things organized.
(TL;DR your topic uses misleading examples that in a lot of cases do not matter (Example is that you mention bearger, showcase its dash being slowed, but fail to mention that Bearger can be killed for free by anyone by just ramming him into trees. Armored bearger, similarly, can be used to chop down trees... or can be used to kill bee queen or dragonfly literally for free which means that you gain another boss' drops effortlessly while not even having to fight bearger)

16 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

If the current Slow Down Round 3 stack level of slowing can be achieved with "a Sticky Round + a Slow Down Round," it would only last 8 seconds, and it would be enough to call "Effort" that constantly shooting two types of bullets and choosing shots or escape while timing, so I don't have a problem with it. But I think it have a issue with the current ease + almighty.

8s is a lot of seconds considering how cheap honey is, you're not improving or fixing anything.
Current slow-down rounds are a concurrent cost, due to needing to be reapplied every 30s. And it isn't the cheapest ammo out there, requiring a purple gem and moon rock which I think make it okay.

16 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Another problem is that if players rely too much on only Slow Down Round, it will consume a lot of the party's Purple Gems and Moon Rocks by itself. If you need to combine it with other rounds, the resources consumed will be spread out. Honey in particular is easy to produce.

This is not really relevant since Walter realistically has no need for slows with other people around unless they request it. You don't need to slow down enemies that are not targeting you considering that slowing enemies down for melee combat is quite niche (only really useful for ancient guardian and dragonfly).

16 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Sistern III + Spectral Cure-All spam

• This absolves most of the effort for keeping Abigail alive.
• To do this, all you need to do is using Spectral Cure-All periodically throughout the fight.
• It works on many bosses, but there are some that it doesn't work on.
• This in itself is not a way to kill the boss, but merely exempts you from certain efforts.
• It consumes a lot of resources (though to be fair it's cheaper than slowdown rounds, so I think it's okay to reduce the duration of healing elixir under Sistern III).

Slow Down Round spam

• This absolves most of the effort for kiting.
• To do this, all you need to do is shooting Slow Down round periodically throughout the fight.
• It works on many bosses, but there are some that it doesn't work on.
• This in itself is not a way to kill the boss, but merely exempts you from certain efforts.
• It consumes a lot of resources,

I don't think slow-down rounds really remove the need for kiting, all they do is let you attack more before you have to move. You still have to move, it just enables Walter to have more opportunities to attack bosses that would otherwise be constantly in his face. It's only when you get to slow stacking where enemies become essentially unable to move (Icker + slowdown + honey slow down mobs by a whopping ~95%). 
Similarly, Sisturn 3 does not remove the need to tend to Abigail, as she will still die if she takes too many repeated hits; but it makes tending to her and messing up a lot more forgiving. The old one did let you essentially have an "immortal" Abigail, which I really don't think was broken since it's always annoyingly costly to keep spectral cure-all applied. However, it completely neuters the identity of the character.
I don't want to hijack this thread for much longer, though. I don't think we should keep discussing Wendy in a Walter thread. If you want my thoughts on Wendy atm you can see here: 

What I'm trying to say is that slow-down rounds don't take away from Walter's slingshot or his kit, are rather expensive to keep applied all the time, and don't remove the need for kiting like people claim because you literally still have to move. It just assures that Walter can get damage off for longer periods of time (necessary for his slingshot grips especially) so that his bee queen fight doesn't last 3 days like it does pre-skill tree lol.

[_mylilsunshine_]

47 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

I don't think slow-down rounds really remove the need for kiting, all they do is let you attack more before you have to move. You still have to move, it just enables Walter to have more opportunities to attack bosses that would otherwise be constantly in his face. It's only when you get to slow stacking where enemies become essentially unable to move (Icker + slowdown + honey slow down mobs by a whopping ~95%). 
What I'm trying to say is that slow-down rounds don't take away from Walter's slingshot or his kit, are rather expensive to keep applied all the time, and don't remove the need for kiting like people claim because you literally still have to move. It just assures that Walter can get damage off for longer periods of time (necessary for his slingshot grips especially) so that his bee queen fight doesn't last 3 days like it does pre-skill tree lol.

Absolutely +1. Instead of shooting at Bee Queen once or twice every 10s, I can now shoot at her 5 times every 10s (hypothetical numbers). I still have to kite away since slow-down doesn't allow me to tank hits, nor let me dodge hits, it just allows me to attack more before having to move. The idea that slow-down round alone can trivialize raid bosses is silly because it's still a raid boss, the fight still has the same risk, it's just the difference between a 10-minute fight vs. a 30-minute fight. I can't recall a single boss that wasn't already easy before. And if you're stacking 03 slows (honey + slow-down + icky), sure what the hell you deserve it just for the micromanaging effort.

Moon Rock is a rather uncommon/rare resource early on, you can at most get 3-5 on the surface, or raid the Archive. In my boss-run, I had to make do with the 03 moon rocks I found and really pinched the numbers of slow-down rounds I could use on Bee Queen, which I ran out of anyway and had to fight a longer fight. Even worse in multiplayer because Moon Rock is really useful and not exactly recurring/renewable (without time and/or effort). I don't get the idea that slow-down is the raid boss' kryptonite came from, because I still got my ass beat by Bee Queen even with it.

On topic, I still think Icker round could be more interesting.

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, _mylilsunshine_ said:

Absolutely +1. Instead of shooting at Bee Queen once or twice every 10s, I can now shoot at her 5 times every 10s (hypothetical numbers). I still have to kite away since slow-down doesn't allow me to tank hits, nor let me dodge hits, it just allows me to attack more before having to move. The idea that slow-down round alone can trivialize raid bosses is silly because it's still a raid boss, the fight still has the same risk, it's just the difference between a 10-minute fight vs. a 30-minute fight. I can't recall a single boss that wasn't already easy before. And if you're stacking 03 slows, sure what the hell you deserve it just for the micromanaging effort.

Moon Rock is a rather uncommon/rare resource early on, you can at most get 3-5 on the surface, or raid the Archive. In my boss-run, I had to make do with the 03 moon rocks I found and really pinched the numbers of slow-down rounds I could use on Bee Queen, which I ran out of anyway and had to fight a longer fight. Even worse in multiplayer because Moon Rock is really useful and not exactly recurring/renewable (without time and/or effort). I don't get the idea that slow-down is the raid boss' kryptonite came from, because I still got my ass beat by Bee Queen even with it.

On topic, I still think Icker round could be more interesting.

To add to this even if a player has slowdown rounds for the bee queen fight if they screw up the timing on reapplying the debuff that can be fatal.

[Steorra]

18 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

To add to this even if a player has slowdown rounds for the bee queen fight if they screw up the timing on reapplying the debuff that can be fatal.

Misinformation.

It can be safe even for a suddenly facetank and I already gave the evidence. You only need a scale armor, or a thulecite crown, or both of them. But any one of them makes you have enough fault tolerance for BQ fight.

[4Rory]

22 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Misinformation.

It can be safe even for a suddenly facetank and I already gave the evidence. You only need a scale armor, or a thulecite crown, or both of them. But any one of them makes you have enough fault tolerance for BQ fight.

I mean I've been saying Walter is better off training a Beefalo for forever, but if you do that you're missing out on most of the benefit of most of Walter's skills, and I don't fault you having A skill which is a stand out in a post-rifts world using a great (well, playable) pre-rifts character

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, 4Rory said:

and I don't fault you having A skill which is a stand out in a post-rifts world using a great (well, playable) pre-rifts character

The most concerned thing is the future updates. If Shadow Prison and Slowing effects could completely disabled bosses of DST, then what a balance would be use for future post-rift enemies? It would be terrible for designing those future mobs once you have to balance "Shadow Prison & no prison"

I.e.

In future, we may have new boss who have ability to cancel/immune prison and slowing. But this might have high possibilities to being unfair to other characters.

Or we may have new boss who is same as old bosses - prison and slowing simply disabled them. All new bosses design being meaningless for Maxwell and Walter.

[somethin]

32 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I.e.

In future, we may have new boss who have ability to cancel/immune prison and slowing. But this might have high possibilities to being unfair to other characters.

They don't even have to do that. Slowing/Stunning doesn't mean anything if the boss have range attack or snares like FW and C.Clops 

Not to mention if they are stationary like ck or antlion its literrally useless. They have a million ways to design bosses without having to have specific immunities without being unfair

[4Rory]

10 minutes ago, somethin said:

They don't even have to do that. Slowing/Stunning doesn't mean anything if the boss have range attack or snares like FW and C.Clops 

Not to mention if they are stationary like ck or antlion its literrally useless. They have a million ways to design bosses without having to have specific immunities without being unfair

This is so valid. Like the "what if" really gives Klei absolutely zero credit in game design.

[Chewabacca]

I don't really see how 30% of original movement speed is getting interpreted as 0% of movement speed. Stacked slowdown rounds are not a shadow prison. They do not eliminate the need to move, they only reduce it.

[WilsonHiggs]

2 hours ago, somethin said:

They don't even have to do that. Slowing/Stunning doesn't mean anything if the boss have range attack or snares like FW and C.Clops 

Not to mention if they are stationary like ck or antlion its literrally useless. They have a million ways to design bosses without having to have specific immunities without being unfair

Agree. Some inmunities are good and even makes sense (like shadow bosses not burning neither sleeping) but forcing inmunities to prevent players using unbalanced stuff instead of fixing what is unbalanced just reduce the ammount of options for fighting which isnt good in a game with such simple combat

Pan flute is over used? Dont worry, just make every boss inmune... thst isnt the way to go when you can add fun stuff like bearger's yawn

Or, as you said, add ranged atacks to prevent hard crowd control making them a punching bag