Why is sisturn 3 effect not a super potion?

[DVGMedia]

Sisturn three is a very confusing perk. I love the concept of being able to put different flowers into the sisturn to achieve different effects for abigail

However the effect of boss defense really is not one that should be tied to a stationary structure like the sisturn. Often times when playing normally
boss spawns can be pretty random So if the player doesn't already have the sisturn already preloaded they won't be able to get the effect of the boss defense.
But this effect has a downside of reducing abbys healing while she is summoned.  Which means the player doesn't actually want to have these petals preloaded into a sisturn.
I feel like the use of the petals for the sisturn shouldn't cause this quarral for the player. Buffs that the sisturn provide should not have a detrimental effect to where the player doesn't want the petals inside of it. Because then it completely removes the purpose of the sisturns perks.
That being able to make petals last longer give wendy better sanity resist and the third perk making flowers give abby buffs.

So Im really begging klei That this version of the perk should not go out to live.


Make the boss defense buff instead be tied to a super potion so that way it introduces the player into the concept of super potions. While making it so that players can enjoy the sisturn and the work put into it in all its glory. 

do it for her!

[SilverSpoon]

Isn't it okay to turn on and off by clicking on Sistern filled with Lune Blossoms? Now, there is a unique animation when Sistern III is on.

This is a different thing, but If Walter's current ability to almost stop the boss from moving by spamming Slow-Down Rounds is considered a "victory by spending resources," then I don't think it was appropriate to Nerf Sistern III's recovery penalty of "reduced healing amount" for Abigail to not become a tank by spamming Sistern III + Spectral Cure-All. I think it would be okay to change it to "reduced healing effect duration" (requiring more Spectral Cure-All) and accept that Abigal hard to die if you spend the cost like Walter. Then it would be a win-win for both Wendy Player and those who don't want Walter to be Nerfed.

[Dyzrespect]

52 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

However the effect of boss defense really is not one that should be tied to a stationary structure like the sisturn. Often times when playing normally
boss spawns can be pretty random So if the player doesn't already have the sisturn already preloaded they won't be able to get the effect of the boss defense.
But this effect has a downside of reducing abbys healing while she is summoned.  Which means the player doesn't actually want to have these petals preloaded into a sisturn.
I feel like the use of the petals for the sisturn shouldn't cause this quarral for the player. Buffs that the sisturn provide should not have a detrimental effect to where the player doesn't want the petals inside of it. Because then it completely removes the purpose of the sisturns perks.
That being able to make petals last longer give wendy better sanity resist and the third perk making flowers give abby buffs.

Yeah I think it's hard to argue against your point, it almost makes no sense having such a situational effect tied to the stationary structure, especially when potions exist that fit the function way better.
Really hope they change this.

25 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Isn't it okay to turn on and off by clicking on Sistern filled with Lune Blossoms? Now, there is a unique animation when Sistern III is on.

This is a different thing, but If Walter's current ability to almost stop the boss from moving by spamming Slow-Down Rounds is considered a "victory by spending resources," then I don't think it was appropriate to Nerf Sistern III's recovery penalty of "reduced healing amount" for Abigail to not become a tank by spamming Sistern III + Spectral Cure-All. I think it would be okay to change it to "reduced healing effect duration" (requiring more Spectral Cure-All) and accept that Abigal hard to die if you spend the cost like Walter. Then it would be a win-win for both Wendy Player and those who don't want Walter to be Nerfed.

You guys only have one speed huh...

Nerfing slowdown doesn't change Walter being able to infinitely shoot and run from a boss. It is just the reality of having ranged combat in the game, and if you want to see a world where slowdown didn't exist, look at the last 5 years of nobody playing Walter. The real fix is bosses need to be fixed to account for ranged attackers, like Fuelweaver and Nightmare Werepig just were in the last few patches. If you need to see what the problem was with old Gestalt Abigail, I encourage you to check out this video. 

The entire game is "victory by spending resources", and in a lot of cases Walter spends more resources and more time for his strategies than the normal strat, even if the gameplay ends up being more boring. I'm not saying Abigail is in a perfect spot but I think it's fair to say a follower that could literally kill every boss on its own was a bit much.

[WenericMember]

This is like the 5th thread you've made on this exact topic.

Can you bump one of your old threads instead of making a new one every time they fall out of the front page.

[DVGMedia]

Just now, WenericMember said:

This is like the 5th thread you've made on this exact topic.

Can you bump one of your old threads instead of making a new one every time they fall out of the front page.

Its because each one kind of talks differently Like ones talk about combining and making ghastly the potion the other talks about the effects that sisturn 3 could have if they went with giving it more flowers. I wanted to bump one of those others up but they didn't really convey the message I wanted to convey which is instead why i linked them.

[Peasant]

13 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

a follower that could literally kill every boss

Really? How did lunar Abi kill AFW by her own?

[SilverSpoon]

21 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

You guys only have one speed huh...

Nerfing slowdown doesn't change Walter being able to infinitely shoot and run from a boss. It is just the reality of having ranged combat in the game, and if you want to see a world where slowdown didn't exist, look at the last 5 years of nobody playing Walter. The real fix is bosses need to be fixed to account for ranged attackers, like Fuelweaver and Nightmare Werepig just were in the last few patches. If you need to see what the problem was with old Gestalt Abigail, I encourage you to check out this video. 

The entire game is "victory by spending resources", and in a lot of cases Walter spends more resources and more time for his strategies than the normal strat, even if the gameplay ends up being more boring. I'm not saying Abigail is in a perfect spot but I think it's fair to say a follower that could literally kill every boss on its own was a bit much.

I can't understand what you want to talk.

• I never said to Nerf Walter's Slow-Down Rounds.

• I don't understand what's wrong with being able to defeat a boss alone by initiatively controlling Abigail. The problem with Gestabby in the past was that the hitbox disappeared when attacking, and the aggro from the enemy disappeared at the same time, so you could really defeat the boss without any operation.

• Compared to that time, Gestabby now takes damage when attacking, aggro not longer dissappeared, her attack power is roughly halved, a 1 second stun time is added after the attack, the AoE of the Attack At command has been removed, on the contrary there is NO attack box at all for Attack At. It is thought that the current Gestabby will need to consume GunPowder level resources to defeat boss solo with Sistern III + Spectral Cure-All Spam.

[Dyzrespect]

7 minutes ago, YXukun said:

Really? How did lunar Abi kill AFW by her own?

[Peasant]

12 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

This should be considered as AFW's recently fixed AI problem?

[Dyzrespect]

6 minutes ago, YXukun said:

This should be considered as AFW's recently fixed AI problem?

Both Walter, and I'm assuming Abigail ironically can still do this even with the fixes, either by using shadow woby/lazy explorer or moles to stop FW from returning to center. Either way my point was abigail could kill 70% of bosses literally on her own, and 95% if you helped her dodge. I honestly agree with you guys being dissatisfied with Wendy changes tbh, I just know she needed to be changed somehow.

[Peasant]

38 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

The entire game is "victory by spending resources"

It's not entirely correct. It's resources and skills. High skills should be able to lower down the amount resources consumed, while high resource input should be able to lower down the skill needed. That's the problem with pre-skilltree Walter, he has to input either far more resource or far more skill to do what others can do. I do agree old gestalt abi is somewhat broken, but that's based on you could input the skills needed.

[DVGMedia]

21 minutes ago, Dyzrespect said:

Both Walter, and I'm assuming Abigail ironically can still do this even with the fixes, either by using shadow woby/lazy explorer or moles to stop FW from returning to center. Either way my point was abigail could kill 70% of bosses literally on her own, and 95% if you helped her dodge. I honestly agree with you guys being dissatisfied with Wendy changes tbh, I just know she needed to be changed somehow.

I saw some of the vision klei had but they still really gutted some of lunar abby. at least they made her more available.  But they should still give the attack at command something for lunar. I never really liked the gestalt form.  but people seemed to.
and like yeah most of the tree is fine.

its literally sisturn three that irks me so just cause of the effect and such lol.

[Mysterious box]

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

But they should still give the attack at command something for lunar.

Personally I feel like it should have been turned into a single target burst attack even if it ended up giving it a longer cooldown.

[DVGMedia]

I have relased my argument video.

This is my final hail mary. its all i can really do to try and make what exists in the skill tree to feel better to play with. 

[CremeLover]

3 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

I see what you're going for, and I do agree that the sisturn is not the right place to put the player tag (I did come up with a way in which player tag could be implemented in a more clean way), however, when I think of the practical application, it would just make it so you cannot use the player tag elixir and super elixirs, at the same time.

Right now, you can use regular potion+super potion+sisturn effects at the same time, if the sisturn effect were to be changed to a super potion, while it would make it more convenient, it would also be an overall nerf reducing from 3 to 2 the amount of meaninful buffs you can put on Abigail simultaneously.

I don't like the current iteration of many parts of Wendy's skill tree, and I agree is not aligned with the thematics of base Wendy, but changing it to where you cannot use it simultaneously with other buffs reducing your combat options is going to make Wendy feel even less interesting to play.

So far from fixing Wendy's skill tree, I believe this would just make it slightly worse.

I do agree 100% with your Wraith's Wreath suggestion.

[DVGMedia]

4 hours ago, CremeLover said:

Right now, you can use regular potion+super potion+sisturn effects at the same time, if the sisturn effect were to be changed to a super potion, while it would make it more convenient, it would also be an overall nerf reducing from 3 to 2 the amount of meaninful buffs you can put on Abigail simultaneously.

 

Thats the point of wendys balance though.  you can still have 3 effects buffing abby  Just that one of them is not going to be a combat effect its going to be a utility effect.
Which is what the sisturn is supposed to provide.
And how meaningful that buff is can really vary  because alot of them ive suggested in previous threads are actually pretty nice in combat.

The players only interaction with super potions are the affinities. And there is literally no competition between the two since you cant use them in conjunction anyway without swapping.  and i think klei is making it more now that if a craft is part of a skill you cant use it anymore if you get rid of that point swapping (picnic the frames for walter the battle song canster)
So theres literally no competition for super potions.  Adding this as a super potion would let it keep its effect it has now.  but offer players who are bad at the game some leeway.
While players who are better or prefer risk can go with the affinity for more damage.

 

[CremeLover]

Thing is, I believe if this change were to be added, it would end up like the Wraith's Wreath, were it does a lot of things, and all effects are lackluster, and you would in exchange lose the ability to use 3 buffs at the same time. If the things given by the sisturn were to actually be meaningful, I wouldn't mind it that much, I just believe you would lose the ability to use 3 buffs at the same time for some inconsequential flavor perk.

And that's a big if, since it would mean developers need to add new effects if they ever decide to add new flowers to the game.

21 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

So theres literally no competition for super potions.  Adding this as a super potion would let it keep its effect it has now.  but offer players who are bad at the game some leeway.

As a small note, I really don't like this mentality, where you relegate skills for the "you're not good enough" crowd. It gives a feel of "this is the skill issue potion", and once you "get better" you can use the actual "good player potions". Which is a very similar argument used for Lunar Abigail being a "hands free" Abigail in exchange from single target. "If you're not good enough or don't want to bother with trying to keep Abigail alive, just go Lunar Abigail"

[Mysterious box]

You know it just occurred to me but there's actually a much simpler solution to this problem when the sisturn is active with the effect why not just make it so you can toggle Abigail in and out of her player tag state in the same way Woby's perks work?

[Debruh]

1 minute ago, Mysterious box said:

You know it just occurred to me but there's actually a much simpler solution to this problem when the sisturn is active with the effect why not just make it so you can toggle Abigail in and out of her player tag state in the same way Woby's perks work?

Yea, just do this. Would work since Wendy has a command wheel with or without team spirit.

[DVGMedia]

54 minutes ago, CremeLover said:

Thing is, I believe if this change were to be added, it would end up like the Wraith's Wreath, were it does a lot of things, and all effects are lackluster, and you would in exchange lose the ability to use 3 buffs at the same time. If the things given by the sisturn were to actually be meaningful, I wouldn't mind it that much, I just believe you would lose the ability to use 3 buffs at the same time for some inconsequential flavor perk.

And that's a big if, since it would mean developers need to add new effects if they ever decide to add new flowers to the game.

As a small note, I really don't like this mentality, where you relegate skills for the "you're not good enough" crowd. It gives a feel of "this is the skill issue potion", and once you "get better" you can use the actual "good player potions". Which is a very similar argument used for Lunar Abigail being a "hands free" Abigail in exchange from single target. "If you're not good enough or don't want to bother with trying to keep Abigail alive, just go Lunar Abigail"

But its not negative. Anything that makes the game easier is beneficial to all types of players

While you won't have 3 meanginful buffs for the bosses it works against.  In general utility helps more than you expect
I feel like you think its going to be like the wreath where half of the things on it are useless.  But in reality theres alot that can be cooked with the concept of sisturn buffs. especially since the buffs have to be related to the flowers innate strength. Imagine a double hp abby with 40 damage thorns effect on everything. or a 1800 hp abby thanks to succulent boosting her resiliance. 

I think we are just overvaluing what the playertag offers when playing when it really doesn't do much. Since really alot of the bosses That wendy encounters in day to day don't need that defense to begin with. Because either  they are telegraphed by daycount or wendy does enough dps to take them out before abby dies.  What would be more useful is having more things abby could do and giving agency to the player to see what is useful and what isn't would help way more people. Because value lies in the beholder.