We are the Minority (Don't Rework Wendy)

[YouKnowWho142]

I think this is really important to make clear to everyone. Most people who play Don't Starve Together are going to be casual players, and they represent the majority of the community. They don't go onto the forums and a lot of them are likely disinterested in the community in general. A lot of these skill trees are satisfactory to these more casual players, and even if all three skill trees came out literally right now as long as they're functional the majority of the community will not complain or be bothered. The backlash on the forums comes from the minority that has much higher expectations on what they want out of each update. a poll might give a general idea on what the forum thinks, but it will never represent the community as a whole.

I'm not saying you're wrong for wanting a skill tree to be better, or closer to your vision in general. However, it's just that, "your vision". Klei proved that they can implement strong character changes with Walter, but what helped was that Walter was a weak character with unrealized potential. Continuing to call for reworks on Wendy's tree is only going to cause us to go backwards since Wendy was already a fundamentally strong character with a defined purpose who just needed flavor and survivability. If Wendy's skill tree released right now, most people would not care.

Please consider this in the future, it's okay to have high expectations but all three skill trees are on the right track, when the skill trees release everyone will just forget about all of this anyways

[Lee Sy]

Yeah, Wendy is still strong, don't need a interesting or useful skill tree.

Come on, only few Chinese players would come here to present our voice in English while there is a more lively and huge community in China. Almost everyone feel unsatisfied with Wendy's tree, they just talk it in Chinese on a platform where Klei never response to.

[DVGMedia]

1 hour ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

 everyone will just forget about all of this anyways

That is kind of the reason we need to still keep talking.
Because thats what happend to all the other skill trees.  There wasn't enough people to really counter the poorer design choices of trees and they just ended up slipping by.
when the trees could have been so much better.

Winona is one I was wondering for sure.  She could have used some basekit integration for her tree  maybe even a winona side that dealt with her hunger drain. something that made her work faster kind of like an overclock mode.

That could have been much better than 9 skills boosting generater efficency and the speed and aoe of catapults.

People get tired of trying to fight for what they wish because the despair sets in but one should never give up hope

[Hollow soul 3]

2 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

People get tired of trying to fight for what they wish because the despair sets in but one should never give up hope

Wortox mains should probably give up hope based on the lack of real changes and what the devs had said. 

[aidancode]

There's a middle ground here though. Everyone loves Walter's tree but most of the changes made from the previous version are very new player friendly. Free drying racks? Doubled monster meat returns for pigs and birds? Portable campfire? These skills are all hugely useful for newer players. That's part of what makes it great and it's proof that a middle ground exists. Wendy does NOT need a huge combat rework but adjustments to her already existing utility skills is, imo, the best way to improve her skill tree moving forward.

[Well-met]

1 hour ago, DVGMedia said:

That could have been much better than 9 skills boosting generater efficency and the speed and aoe of catapults.

improving the same perk repeatedly is how skill trees work in most rpg games. Its only in dont starve together that people whine and cry over it.

[aidancode]

22 minutes ago, Well-met said:

improving the same perk repeatedly is how skill trees work in most rpg games. Its only in dont starve together that people whine and cry over it.

A few problems here:

- RPGs very rarely have limits to the skill tree. You'll usually unlock most or all of the tree by the end

- RPGs scale your power over time during a run. In DST you unlock all skills at the start; there's no skill progression, it's instant

- Citing other communities as a reason to balance things a certain way in a different community is part of the bandwagon fallacy and is never a good way to balance. Imagine if precision platformers were made easier because "well Mario is the most popular platformer and it's pretty easy"

- DST gives the player very few skill points in total. Most RPGs tend to give the player 30+ skill points throughout the game, sometimes several hundred. There's a much weaker excuse for filler progression in DST

- saying people "whine and cry over it" is just kinda mean, there's no reason to do it

- the G in RPG stands for game. They're Role Playing Games not Role Playing Game games

[Walrusst]

2 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

That could have been much better than 9 skills boosting generater efficency and the speed and aoe of catapults.

Honestly its sort of insane how positively loaded the tree feels at the same time as being bloated with number tweaks.

Like. Shadow seeker 2 is one of the most overloaded, cracked, lunatic level skills in the entire game which does about as much as like 12 skills in another tree and creates a new playstyles which is beyond the comprehension of mere mortals (Living in a post scarcity world where everythings in reach, you never suffer death penalties, and you really don't even feel bound by your character gimmicks, or the games own rules.)

But then shelf 2 is all about minmaxing a single turret choice, and lunar winowa is a post game ability that lets her pay immense amounts of post game resources to do things like mine quickly, and build a fraction of the convenience you felt playing as shadow winowna at great cost.

Shelf 2 could be better if they split the qualities of fast firing/big boom like we were playing with AOE 2 siege in a bunch of differing turrets with different traits, sure, but also consolidating the benefits on what was already good about her is decent enough. You can imagine a world where she makes tailored maginoit lines to deal with highly specific threats right? But also doing something simple, functional, and having it make her be the best at her gimmick is also good, after all, if her catapults are 2.5x stronger with her, it does end her swap character era.

At the same time, I'm not too negative on old trees having strangeness. They've clearly gotten better at making trees over time.

• Fresh wortox players in my group are screaming with joy at all the nutty things they've done with various naughty/nice builds, whether its indefinite ocean exploration for the panflute nice one or killing large packs of enemies disarmed and healing off the soul overflow for the naughty one. (Resulting in my first ally who actually likes using boats! A note is nobody owned wortox in my group prior to playing this beta.)
• The wendy players already stared at a fridge letting abagail feed them while they just read the wiki after setting up near frog ponds. One of them woke up and started walking onto the map to get stuff like morning glory, using resources, and playing the game instead of treating it like a documentary. Nature is healing.
• Walter players are celebrating massively. We don't need to go in detail here.

The future looks bright.

Could old trees use refreshes, could characters have misleading attributes filed off to end new player pain points, could what we are getting be better? Yes. Always/
But we don't need to be feral about it.

[YouKnowWho142]

3 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

Honestly its sort of insane how positively loaded the tree feels at the same time as being bloated with number tweaks.

Like. Shadow seeker 2 is one of the most overloaded, cracked, lunatic level skills in the entire game which does about as much as like 12 skills in another tree and creates a new playstyles which is beyond the comprehension of mere mortals (Living in a post scarcity world where everythings in reach, you never suffer death penalties, and you really don't even feel bound by your character gimmicks, or the games own rules.)

But then shelf 2 is all about minmaxing a single turret choice, and lunar winowa is a post game ability that lets her pay immense amounts of post game resources to do things like mine quickly, and build a fraction of the convenience you felt playing as shadow winowna at great cost.

I actually think that's kind of okay, ish? It's easy to be frustrated by stat tweak skills, but I think Winona in particular pulls it off purely because her playstyle generally revolves around her best skills at the top of the shelf and the skills on the lower shelves just supporting that. When I played Winona I got overwhelmed by just the perks in that top shelf, if all the filler perks in the lower shelves added actual new perks she would be an extremely overwhelming character to play

Wolfgang is only partially excused, you can argue either way why his skills are so simple. Otherwise I think filler skills should be kept to a minimum, yet should be allowed to exist as long as they arent obstructive

[Walrusst]

Just now, YouKnowWho142 said:

I actually think that's kind of okay, ish? It's easy to be frustrated by stat tweak skills, but I think Winona in particular pulls it off purely because her playstyle generally revolves around her best skills at the top of the shelf and the skills on the lower shelves just supporting that. When I played Winona I got overwhelmed by just the perks in that top shelf, if all the filler perks in the lower shelves added actual new perks she would be an extremely overwhelming character to play

Its positively ok! I pretty much outlined. Yes there are obvious ways we could say it *COULD* be better.
But winowa being the queen of her personal items is excellent regardless and ends an era where she was just someone you used to lay your base foundation and portaled out of being.

(It would be hilarious if we added a cut stone/electrical doodad discount to a random skill as a side effect though to mirror walter/woody.) /s

[lowercase skye]

39 minutes ago, aidancode said:

- RPGs scale your power over time during a run. In DST you unlock all skills at the start; there's no skill progression, it's instant

But you don't, though, unless you use the console to get all 15 insight before actually playing with the character at all. Skill trees help with defining a "playthrough" of DST from a single world, to instead several worlds of trial and error dying and slowly gaining knowledge, which is how it was always meant to be. In that way, you don't get a full skill tree all at the very start, as the intended new player experience is to gain a few points per world and slowly fill out the characters' skill trees.

[Walrusst]

Insight lets the game be more complicated than it was, since thing start simple, and players are asked to iteratively consent to how the game gets more detailed/complicated as they learn.

[aidancode]

11 minutes ago, lowercase skye said:

But you don't, though, unless you use the console to get all 15 insight before actually playing with the character at all. Skill trees help with defining a "playthrough" of DST from a single world, to instead several worlds of trial and error dying and slowly gaining knowledge, which is how it was always meant to be. In that way, you don't get a full skill tree all at the very start, as the intended new player experience is to gain a few points per world and slowly fill out the characters' skill trees.

Two things:

- several characters expect for you to have unlocked their skill tree beforehand to maximize. This is a problem with the skill trees themselves for not making enough stuff base kit, though.

- it really doesn't take that long to fully max out insight.

 

Hungry Lighter base kit Willow someday please maybe probably not  

[Thieta]

4 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I think this is really important to make clear to everyone. Most people who play Don't Starve Together are going to be casual players, and they represent the majority of the community.

Yes, They will be casual players, but do not deny other's their voice - It's fine to say what you personally want, But there is a massive problem with speaking for others. Don't ever try to speak for what you consider is "The community" in the end it's nothing but what YOU think and want. This kind of manipulation tactic is extremely poor taste and toxic.

If people don't want to go on the forums and talk about it, That's their choice, But don't ever try and attempt to take away anyone's voice again.

 

4 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

when the skill trees release everyone will just forget about all of this anyways

This is exactly why everyone wants to make EVERYONE'S skill tree as best as they possibly can, I regret not joining the forums and voicing my opinion back when wurt's skill tree was being made. However I am here to have my voice heard on these skill trees. Your argument of "Walter is weak so he gets a better skill tree and wendy has always been strong so working on hers is detrimental." Is a flawed mindset.

25 minutes ago, Walrusst said:

The wendy players already stared at a fridge letting abagail feed them while they just read the wiki after setting up near frog ponds. One of them woke up and started walking onto the map to get stuff like morning glory, using resources, and playing the game instead of treating it like a documentary. Nature is healing.

Terrible, Lmao

[SilverSpoon]

4 hours ago, Lee Sy said:

Yeah, Wendy is still strong, don't need a interesting or useful skill tree.

Come on, only few Chinese players would come here to present our voice in English while there is a more lively and huge community in China. Almost everyone feel unsatisfied with Wendy's tree, they just talk it in Chinese on a platform where Klei never response to.

@Lee Sy, I'm speaking directly to you, are you and "Almost everyone" completely not satisfied with the current Wendy skill tree and want it to be remade from scratch? I... think probably not.

Personally, I think the current Wendy skill tree needs some buffs and tweaking yet, but the core part is unique enough as it is and I'm satisfied with it. If you have same thought with me, I think you should be more specific about what you don't like about Wendy's skill tree and how you would like it tweaked. 

Nevertheless, If you really want Wendy's skill tree to be redesigned from scratch instead... I have to disagree because I like the current skill tree.

[Blue Tangerine]

Your assumptions are misleading and wrong; it's true that players on the Klei forum are the minority, but that doesn't equate to players outside of the forum being happy with Wendy's skill tree. In fact the opposite is true, if Klei released the current version of the skill tree, many of your so called "casual players" would be unhappy with it. I mean, come on, after almost 3 months of "improvements", this is what we get? Not to mention that if casual players don't care about the Klei forums, their impression of Wendy's skill tree will simply be the first version of it which was worse than the current one.

[Koomin]

5 minutes ago, Blue Tangerine said:

Your assumptions are misleading and wrong; it's true that players on the Klei forum are the minority, but that doesn't equate to players outside of the forum being happy with Wendy's skill tree. In fact the opposite is true, if Klei released the current version of the skill tree, many of your so called "casual players" would be unhappy with it. I mean, come on, after almost 3 months of "improvements", this is what we get? Not to mention that if casual players don't care about the Klei forums, their impression of Wendy's skill tree will simply be the first version of it which was worse than the current one.

Where are you getting this from?  The vast majority of opinions that I have seen outside the forums (YouTube comments, apparently discord, personal conversations) have been that the trees are all more than good.  They are generally actually upset that people keep stopping them from being released by complaining on the forum.  Genuinely a bit baffled where you are seeing this.

[YouKnowWho142]

1 hour ago, Thieta said:

Yes, They will be casual players, but do not deny other's their voice - It's fine to say what you personally want, But there is a massive problem with speaking for others. Don't ever try to speak for what you consider is "The community" in the end it's nothing but what YOU think and want. This kind of manipulation tactic is extremely poor taste and toxic.

If people don't want to go on the forums and talk about it, That's their choice, But don't ever try and attempt to take away anyone's voice again.

I never denied anyone their voice? I never said it wasn't okay to make critiques and provide feedback. There are way more than a few examples where feedback on the forums have altered the game in a very positive manner, as we have just seen with Walter's skill tree. The only thing I've mentioned was that most of the community doesn't participate in the forums and just goes along with updates as they come.

Calling me manipulative and toxic is extremely rude and misleading, and I am most certainly not speaking for others. I do not speak on behalf of the community either, only acknowledging that the way the players on the forum may think is different to that of the majority that play the game more casually or have very limited knowledge on the entire scope of the game. What I am saying is that Wendy shouldn't be reworked outright since they're all in a fairly positive direction. Even in the forums most people are just seeking a lot of tweaking and smaller changes for each of the characters and especially skills as opposed to completely changing it. Do not paint me in such a disrespectful picture.

[Blue Tangerine]

15 minutes ago, Koomin said:

你是从哪里得到这个的？我在论坛外看到的绝大多数意见（YouTube评论，显然不和谐，个人对话）一直以来，树木都非常好。他们通常对人们通过在论坛上抱怨来阻止他们被释放感到不满。真的有点困惑你在哪里看到这个。

Tieba and Bilibili,Considering the huge percentage of Chinese players, statistic that doesn't include Chinese players lacks veracity, doesn't it?

[Mr Giggio]

 

6 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I think this is really important to make clear to everyone. Most people who play Don't Starve Together are going to be casual players, and they represent the majority of the community. They don't go onto the forums and a lot of them are likely disinterested in the community in general. A lot of these skill trees are satisfactory to these more casual players, and even if all three skill trees came out literally right now as long as they're functional the majority of the community will not complain or be bothered. The backlash on the forums comes from the minority that has much higher expectations on what they want out of each update. a poll might give a general idea on what the forum thinks, but it will never represent the community as a whole.

I'm not saying you're wrong for wanting a skill tree to be better, or closer to your vision in general. However, it's just that, "your vision". Klei proved that they can implement strong character changes with Walter, but what helped was that Walter was a weak character with unrealized potential. Continuing to call for reworks on Wendy's tree is only going to cause us to go backwards since Wendy was already a fundamentally strong character with a defined purpose who just needed flavor and survivability. If Wendy's skill tree released right now, most people would not care.

Please consider this in the future, it's okay to have high expectations but all three skill trees are on the right track, when the skill trees release everyone will just forget about all of this anyways

It never was a mistake till now. Its a good reminder but who does it does it in bad faith thinking it is a needed revolutionary move. Not much will change and reasoning is just another post in a ocean of it, ya know? I like to think Im colabing more not doing any post cuz its a milion everywhere already. But I still share my reasoning in the ones tha exist.

[Koomin]

1 minute ago, Blue Tangerine said:

Tieba and Bilibili,Considering the huge percentage of Chinese players, statistic that doesn't include Chinese players lacks veracity, doesn't it?

Cool yea seems like some people would be upset if they release it immediately, and some would be upset if they don't. 

[YouKnowWho142]

1 minute ago, Mr Giggio said:

 

It never was a mistake till now. Its a good reminder but who does it does it in bad faith thinking it is a needed revolutionary move. Not much will change and reasoning is just another post in a ocean of it, ya know? I like to think Im colabing more not doing any post cuz its a milion everywhere already. But I still share my reasoning in the ones tha exist.

I understand what you mean, I never expected much to change from what I'm saying. Nobody is doing anything wrong by sharing feedback, it's ultimately what this forum is for. I just felt compelled to mention this since the forum has felt very self enclosed and there is a lot of evident resentment. The players here are all very seasoned, but I wanted to acknowledge the perspective of people who just play casually with their friends and that their mindset for the game is completely different from ours. I hope everyone gets what they want out of the skill trees, but I just don't think everyone will be happy with it regardless of what happens, and I always want to make that clear

[Lardee]

The vast majority of Wendy players probably don't even understand let alone care about any of the Wendy topics on this forum.

[Thieta]

18 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I never denied anyone their voice?

Attempting to speak for those that aren't active on the forums - It's akin to denying their voice by attempting to make it your own.

 

21 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Calling me manipulative and toxic is extremely rude and misleading, and I am most certainly not speaking for others. I do not speak on behalf of the community either

 

6 hours ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Most people who play Don't Starve Together are going to be casual players, and they represent the majority of the community. They don't go onto the forums and a lot of them are likely disinterested in the community in general. A lot of these skill trees are satisfactory to these more casual players, and even if all three skill trees came out literally right now as long as they're functional the majority of the community will not complain or be bothered. The backlash on the forums comes from the minority that has much higher expectations on what they want out of each update.

Quote

We are the Minority (Don't Rework Wendy

What you said in that post directly contradicts what you are saying here. Yes, It is manipulation, You are attempting to use an arbitrary pressure (The outside community) You are also attempting to speak for them in both the posts you made and even THE TITLE While also devaluing and ostracizing those in the forums who are asking for change, No matter how you look at it - This is an attempt of gaslighting and putting pressure on both the devs and those in the forums.

 

27 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Do not paint me in such a disrespectful picture.

This isn't a painting you're looking at... I'm holding a mirror. If you don't like what you see then that lies with you.

[Blue Tangerine]

5 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I understand what you mean, I never expected much to change from what I'm saying. Nobody is doing anything wrong by sharing feedback, it's ultimately what this forum is for. I just felt compelled to mention this since the forum has felt very self enclosed and there is a lot of evident resentment. The players here are all very seasoned, but I wanted to acknowledge the perspective of people who just play casually with their friends and that their mindset for the game is completely different from ours. I hope everyone gets what they want out of the skill trees, but I just don't think everyone will be happy with it regardless of what happens, and I always want to make that clear

Well, I want to talk about my personal feelings, I once said to mima that Wendy's skill tree is like a tree with root rot, no matter how much you prune it, it will eventually wither, what it really needs is an emergency surgery. My  complaint about the current version is that the designer seem to be obsessed with "balancing" or "nerfing", but the  result is terrible. For example, adding the "player" tag to Abigail while nerfing her recovery ability significantly,  I have to admit that the beta has been going on for far too long, and the repetitive changes are wearing out not only my patience, but also my trust in the designer. As for the "casual players" who don't care about the forum, I'm afraid their impression of Wendy's skill tree is still "dark petals + mourning glory = petals".