Wortox and bugnet-plus issue? - no, it's an issue of Wortox's soul piercing.

[Steorra]

 

Spoiler

We already have many evidence to show that Wortox has already become another overpower character by his skill tree. The soul management balance issue discussion has been heated before, and I guess we won't have a soul jar potential nerfing in future. The Bugnet-plus would only makes the powercreeping toward the soul management issue become more worse. It makes you get easy free souls from the killer-bee bio. And the free bees means another imbalance thing if we consider this video :

恶魔人再次加强！一秒双分身！新版恶魔人开荒攻略！『饥荒联机版』_饥荒联机版

(check it from 6'00)

Even we don't talk about the balance of soul management & soul piercing build, the "Bugnet-plus" is just another copycat of DST base kit. We already have an overpower copycat of Bone-Armor from Lunar affinity of Wortox. Why we would have more similar thing here? Yes I could understand that a “Bugnet-plus” would brings efficiently QoL changes to endgame. But it should not applied by Wortox's tree. It's a boring design as a specific character's skill. We could have more interesting potential options don't we?

 

 

Additional evidence to show how Wortox is strong now: 

【饥荒】测试服小恶魔 28.2天 万血Boss速通_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

(28.2 days 10k+ HP bosses rush)

someone told me this is not an issue of bugnet-plus but an issue of soul pierce skill itself. I think they are right. I'm sorry if I was mislead something. Yes the soul piercing thing need recheck and rebalance (It let you kill Lunar Bearger easily in only 11 times teleport). Please be fair to Wortox and Wendy.

恶魔人再次加强！一秒双分身！新版恶魔人开荒攻略！『饥荒联机版』_饥荒联机版

(check it from 6'00)

[Guille6785]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Additional evidence to show how Wortox is strong now: 

【饥荒】测试服小恶魔 28.2天 万血Boss速通_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

(28.2 days 10k+ HP bosses rush)

I could do this 10 days faster as Wolfgang, let characters be decent

[Debruh]

Leave poor Wortox alone. His crafting skills don't even have the border/corner pieces of the crafting animation like other skill trees have

^From Woodie and Wendy. Also checked Wormwood, Winona, and Wolfgang, and they have it

Also, Walter's ammo lacks it. And his other slingshot upgrades. (Only the first one has it)

Wigfrid also has it. Her new spear, shield, and new helm have it. But skills upgrading them don't. I have no idea why it wasn't made like hers.

[Steorra]

13 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

I could do this 10 days faster as Wolfgang, let characters be decent

Wortox could finish double main quest line in 15 days. 

I guess then still no "strong" but some other excuse for defending Wortox's power?

11 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Leave poor Wortox alone. His crafting skills don't even have the border/corner pieces of the crafting animation like other skill trees have

^From Woodie and Wendy. Also checked Wormwood, Winona, and Wolfgang, and they have it

So, the Bugnet-plus is more interesting than any other potential new function of knapsack? 

the argument happened here is start to seems like a personal thing but not a fair discussion ngl.

"Though we have two line arguments for the discussion, if I could not give any argument to line B, I would against line A for clarify my victory"

Come on you guys, the discussion is for feedback but not for PvP entertainment in a randomly internet forum. Be mature please?

[Guille6785]

19 hours ago, Steorra said:

Wortox could finish double main quest line in 15 days. 

I guess then still no "strong" but some other excuse for defensing Wortox's power?

Fehalro:

-Used a mod to guarantee stellar world generation
-Had excellent RNG
-Allowed cheese
-Used a character with perks pretty much exclusively designed to do the CC questline fast, since he bypassed the biggest time wasters of having to physically move to pearl's island and move the heavy objects across the map
-Was playing on a small world, which disproportionately benefits Wortox due to his map teleport abilities
-Is straight up a great player, he was dealt a good hand and played it well
-Used rollbacks mid run, which by definition makes the run not a speedrun since it is segmented

I have nothing against Fehalro, he seems like a super chill dude, but using his run as an argument about Wortox's strength is ridiculous because this is pretty much as far as you can get from the way people actually play the game short of playing on a seeded world with more mods and he was using the character in as optimal of a setting as you can get to use his abilities

And because I can actually play the game to back up my arguments, here's a CC + FW run exclusively as Wilson, with no cheese (meaning I had to shoulder the resource cost of the cheeseless Fuelweaver fight while not having any combat abilities), no rollbacks, no magi/lazy explorer allowed, with no mods to artifically guarantee excellent RNG, in a completely vanilla world, and with honestly pretty mediocre RNG outside of the first few days, while activating the rifts (i.e. getting the dreadstone from nightmare werepig) and I still finished in the first autumn:

Fehalro's run was still obviously faster by a few days but considering how many more restrictions I put upon myself that was to be expected, I had a practice run that was a whole 22 minutes faster than this one and it could easily be even faster if I just cheesed Fuelweaver, set the world size to small, had better RNG mid-run, made fewer mistakes and used mods to guarantee better generation

Wortox is fine

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

Fehalro:

-Used a mod to guarantee stellar world generation
-Had excellent RNG
-Allowed cheese
-Used a character with perks pretty much exclusively designed to do the CC questline fast, since he bypassed the biggest time wasters of having to physically move to pearl's island and move the heavy objects across the map
-Was playing on a small world, which disproportionately benefits Wortox due to his map teleport abilities
-Is straight up a great player, he was dealt a good hand and played it well

I have nothing against Fehalro, he seems like a super chill dude, but using his run as an argument about Wortox's strength is ridiculous because this is pretty much as far as you can get from the way people actually play the game short of playing on a seeded world with more mods and he was using the character in as optimal of a setting as you can get to use his abilities

And because I can actually play the game to back up my arguments, here's a run exclusively as Wilson, with no cheese (meaning I had to shoulder the resource cost of the cheeseless Fuelweaver fight while not having any combat abilities), with no mods to artifically guarantee excellent RNG, in a completely vanilla world, and with honestly pretty mediocre RNG outside of the first few days, and I still finished in the first autumn:

 

Fehalro's run was still obviously faster by a few days but considering how many more restrictions I put upon myself that was to be expected, I had a practice run that was a whole 22 minutes faster than this one and it could easily be even faster if I just cheesed Fuelweaver, set the world size to small, had better RNG and used mods to guarantee better generation

Wortox is fine

Copycat skill of base kit we have is not fine and not fun.

Bone Armor with Lunar affinity auto win is not fine and not fun.

I might accept your speedrun argument, but if I recall correctly you were supported an argument like "don't discuss balance by using speedrun" before?

I have no idea why you change your mind and join the speedrun balance discussion now.

[Guille6785]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

if I recall correctly you were supported an argument like "don't discuss balance by using speedrun" before?

I have no idea why you change your mind and join the speedrun balance discussion now.

I'm showing you why using speedruns as an argument is pointless

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, Guille6785 said:

I'm showing you why using speedruns as an argument is pointless

okay.

[asdsaax]

29 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Additional evidence to show how Wortox is strong now: 

【饥荒】测试服小恶魔 28.2天 万血Boss速通_哔哩哔哩_bilibili

(28.2 days 10k+ HP bosses rush)

Honestly... I have been playing a lot of Wortox with goal to activate rifts asap
and his gameplay turns DST into a baby of gambling machine and a scratch game that requires a lot of variables to work out

and as Guille said before it's more about how the world generates rather than character's abilities

if you got such run... then you have probably regenerated the world a lot and wasted at least 8-16 minutes each time

not to mention that on top of available shadow pieces you would like to have killer bee biome too as Wortox so... playing fair becomes really brutal XD

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

Honestly... I have been playing a lot of Wortox with goal to activate rifts asap
and his gameplay turns DST into a baby of gambling machine and a scratch game that requires a lot of variables to work out

and as Guille said before it's more about how the world generates rather than character's abilities

if you got such run... then you have probably regenerated the world a lot and wasted at least 8-16 minutes each time

not to mention that on top of available shadow pieces you would like to have killer bee biome too as Wortox so... playing fair becomes really brutal XD

I could understand this point, but the speedrun is enough to prove how the teleport power Wortox have.

And the original argument is not only about speedrun thing. Also about soul piercing DPS and boring design copycat of what we already have in base kits.

[asdsaax]

27 minutes ago, Steorra said:

And the original argument is not only about speedrun thing. Also about soul piercing DPS and boring design copycat of what we already have in base kits.

When it comes to bugnet thing... personally not a fan either but that feature was giga requested on forums
so we would be clashing with a lot of people over a buff for an item that's notorious for being pathetic

but that's okay, that skill is worth only 1 point and will be always in our kit so I wouldn't use my energy and visibility to improve it, especially when others have taken care of it

on the other hand Lunar Swindler has the same recycling problem, but I'm doing my best to abolish it, because treating affinity perk that way is unacceptable in my opinion

EDIT:
Also about soul managment:
They removed it so late game Wortox can teleport as much as he pleases, because Wanda was outperforming the OG teleportation character which was kinda lame

and I'm not sure if slightly cheaper bugnet is going to be such a game changer
if you have souljar: using would be an overkill
if it's pre day 7: you save up 2 ropes and 8 sticks to keep 20 extra souls in your inventory

I would rather take this, than spend another 3k hours as Wilson 2 that can teleport sometimes if he manually kills 20 bees each time

-

and about Soul Piercing... Yeah it's pretty good, but other characters are going to be that way too after receiving their skilltrees
so discussing it would require a lot of brainstorming that wouldn't get us far I'm afraid

[salty_cookie]

I disagree. The game is not a competitive boss rush simulator with a leaderboard. Just because he can do bosses in 28 days doesn’t mean he should have no more fun skills. I do find lunar affinity slightly boring, but calling it overpowered is insane. Bone armor gives you ability to dodge multiple attacks in short succession, lunar affinity doesn’t. 

[FluffyBun]

I honestly think Killer Bee Biome reliance is kinda lazy and overdone. Wortox needs both nerfs and buffs, since his gameplay loop feels a little too Willow-ey

Wortox should be honestly rewarded when killing higher-HP mobs (beefalo, etc) over lower-HP mobs (spiders, or worse: bees)

Killer bee reliance will lag servers when Wortox decides he needs more souls

[WenericMember]

17 minutes ago, FluffyBun said:

I honestly think Killer Bee Biome reliance is kinda lazy and overdone. Wortox needs both nerfs and buffs, since his gameplay loop feels a little too Willow-ey

Wortox should be honestly rewarded when killing higher-HP mobs (beefalo, etc) over lower-HP mobs (spiders, or worse: bees)

Killer bee reliance will lag servers when Wortox decides he needs more souls

It was Wortox's gameplay loop first. Willow also gets multiple souls from bigger enemies.

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, salty_cookie said:

no more fun skills.

I don't think a bugnet-plus is fun.

1 hour ago, salty_cookie said:

lunar affinity doesn’t. 

sorry? their lunar affinity is far more stronger than bone-armor.

[FluffyBun]

35 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

It was Wortox's gameplay loop first. Willow also gets multiple souls from bigger enemies.

He used to punch 20 butterflies and call it a day. No need for killer bee biomes.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

7 hours ago, WenericMember said:

It was Wortox's gameplay loop first. Willow also gets multiple souls from bigger enemies.

No, it wasn't. The only time Wortox bothered with this was to support a Wormwood or Wendy, and it's not even through his own AoE. What are you doing killing 100-200 bees on a 20 cap? There was no need to do this on a regular basis at all. It was always very helpful to base near Killer Bees, but you could easily replace them with an alternative farm. That's not the case now. We need 110-200 Souls now to fill up, and we're spending a lot more than before due to interactions with certain skills. A couple Spider dens or automatic Varg farm or anything similar ain't gonna cut it anymore. It takes a really extra Spider farm to even come close, and that still takes much longer than a bee biome does.

7 hours ago, FluffyBun said:

I honestly think Killer Bee Biome reliance is kinda lazy and overdone. Wortox needs both nerfs and buffs, since his gameplay loop feels a little too Willow-ey

Wortox should be honestly rewarded when killing higher-HP mobs (beefalo, etc) over lower-HP mobs (spiders, or worse: bees)

Killer bee reliance will lag servers when Wortox decides he needs more souls

I super agree with you, so, so hard. The fact that small increments of Souls is nearly meaningless now is a huge loss, from a gameplay perspective. Though I think there's a better way to implement the middle feature in a way that makes more lore sense (specifically by buffing the bulk Souls drop from giants, to help keep you replenished after big fights that drain you more.)

I absolutely hate bee farming, and the worst part is that Wortox doesn't get access to any significantly better farming options until ultra-late-game, while Willow can just craft Bee Boxes and be totally content for her needs. It's mind numbing, and it either forces repeated worldgen, or a worldgen-determining mod, or you're just significantly crippled throughout the entire playthrough. What's even worse is that, even if I wanted to avoid the Soul Jar and mass farming, increasing our cap from the measley 20 isn't even possible without the jars, because it's not only locked behind that skill on the tree, but our capacity requires we have them on hand. So even if I wanted to completely max all efficiency skills and take Pleasant Pastorale and stock myself more organically, I'd still be working with a pre-beta cap of 20, which is an unacceptable result from this skill tree. The cap increasing was one of the most necessary changes, but it's implemented in such a wrong way. The system was not thought out very well, because this is all completely avoidable, and it's a giant stain on the skill tree's good qualities. There's some really great things, here. But half of the skills on the tree lose a ton of their value because of all this, and it's saddening that this is what we're calling ready for release after ignoring feedback from start to finish.

Also, the lag thing forced a pub I was in to install an item stacking mod, which ended up a little more game-changing than I was hoping it would be in other areas. They only had to do that, because I was there. That's so, SO uncool.

This part of his gameplay is, by far, my least wanted result of this beta. The vision was seriously lacking in this department, and we could have gotten similar upgrades to our capabilities with a different approach. Weaker? A little bit, yeah. But it could be made scalable, so it wouldn't require more than 1 or 2 changed lines to loosen things up, as deemed necessary. 

Unfortunately it's way too late for anything to change, even though this was all completely fixable from day 1. 85% of the programming is already done, and just needs some things moved around and some values tweaked to accomplish that. A huge chunk of it is just a few number changes in tuning.lua, and a quick spot check. I really wish more people joined in as soon as I raised flags about all this, two months ago, but others seemed to imagine I wanted Wortox to be just as weak as before, or something reactionary like that, and just got defensive about it, exactly like what's happened with Wendy this whole time. I think they believed this is the only way we could have gotten our freedom, but what we got was way too much, and this required a gentler touch than going from 20 to 110-200 Souls. That's still insanity to me, even now, that this was deemed A-okay, that nothing could possibly go wrong here.

Ooh, my jimmies are so rustled by all this, but this is so off topic now. The product developer side of my brain is just so sad when it imagines what could have been, and the angwy gamer side is riled up.

Bug net ain't fixing my problems with the skill tree though. I'm not about to accept that both the Soul Jar/cap and Nabsack don't need real tuning because I can catch bees for a little cheaper.

[Hollow soul 3]

If it's really that overpowered, should we ask klei to make it so that Wortox can't hold a regular net? Since the recipe for the sack uses silk, you probably bring extra webs with you. The only thing it does is save you a moment for switching items. Why take away something that doesn't break the balance when it adds flavor?

The sack being a required pick even after it loses relevance really needed more utility. I think the change will help compensate for that

[Jakepeng99]

12 hours ago, Steorra said:

Wortox could finish double main quest line in 15 days. 

Its mainly because he can teleport.

[Mr. Furman]

I'm afraid he will not get any less OP from not adding this feature, and will not get any more OP with adding it.

[Steorra]

4 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Its mainly because he can teleport.

yes. what I would tried to say is the teleport is another power creep of Wortox especially after the skill tree.

[IAmAFurrz]

18 hours ago, Steorra said:

It makes you get easy free souls from the killer-bee bio.

but... arent they already free now? decoy/pierce already made them super convenient, this is not even gonna compare lol

[Steorra]

Just now, IAmAFurrz said:

but... arent they already free now? decoy/pierce already made them super convenient, this is not even gonna compare lol

the thing should be "easy free bees" I guess.

I mean the soul piercing build. (which easily killed lunar bearger by 11 times teleport)

[IAmAFurrz]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

the thing should be "easy free bees" I guess.

I mean the soul piercing build. (which easily killed lunar bearger by 11 times teleport)

i guess thats a fair point but thats more of a soul pierce skill problem than a knabsack being a bugnet problem

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

more of a soul pierce skill problem than a knabsack being a bugnet problem

opps, you are right. I was ignored that this could be fixed by change the soul pierce but not the bugnet-plus thing. sorry.