温蒂技能树的整体评价（更新） / An overall evaluation of Wendy's skill tree (Update)

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Yifei_ said:

It's possible. I learned about the increase in Sisturn's sanity recovery rate from some beta test introduction videos on Bilibili.

Additionally, activating this skill slightly weakens the Bee Queen Crown. I tested it and found that the sanity recovery rate of the Bee Queen Crown is also affected by the reduction in the sanity modifier.

If it weakens the bee queen crown then yes, it almost certainly does all three (better sanity aura resistance, AOE sanity aura resistance, Sisturn Aura). It is kinda weird that the part that's actually to do with to do with the sisturn isn't mentioned though rofl.

I almost wonder if the Sisturn's inverted sanity aura mode was made to compensate for the increased resistance.

[Yifei_]

26 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

If it weakens the bee queen crown then yes, it almost certainly does all three (better sanity aura resistance, AOE sanity aura resistance, Sisturn Aura). It is kinda weird that the part that's actually to do with to do with the sisturn isn't mentioned though rofl.

I almost wonder if the Sisturn's inverted sanity aura mode was made to compensate for the increased resistance.

I think all three of them should be there. It's indeed strange that the skill description of Sisturn is the only one missing information about Sisturn itself.

Moreover, I found that after activating Blessed Sisturn II, placing petals into Sisturn triggers an additional visual effect, which is quite beautiful.

 Are you referring to the “inverted sanity aura” as the evil flower of Blessed Sisturn III? I remember that theoretically it should provide a sanity aura of “-40/min.” However, due to factors such as Wendy's own sanity resistance, the effect of Blessed Sisturn II, and the collision volume of Sisturn, the actual reduction is around -22/min. The practicality of using this method to lower sanity is quite limited.

Alas, the Blessed Sisturn branch has such great artwork, but due to its lack of practicality, I won't allocate skill points to them. It's really a pity.

Edit:

 

[WenericMember]

14 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

I think all three of them should be there. It's indeed strange that the skill description of Sisturn is the only one missing information about Sisturn itself.

Moreover, I found that after activating Blessed Sisturn II, placing petals into Sisturn triggers an additional visual effect, which is quite beautiful.

 

 Are you referring to the “inverted sanity aura” as the evil flower of Blessed Sisturn III? I remember that theoretically it should provide a sanity aura of “-40/min.” However, due to factors such as Wendy's own sanity resistance, the effect of Blessed Sisturn II, and the collision volume of Sisturn, the actual reduction is around -22/min. The practicality of using this method to lower sanity is quite limited.

Alas, the Blessed Sisturn branch has such great artwork, but due to its lack of practicality, I won't allocate skill points to them. It's really a pity.

Edit:

 

That's fair enough. I think overall 1 and 2 are good enough as they are,  but the current blessed sisturn 3 struggles to justify the branch from a gameplay perspective at present.  (Ik you're fine with them existing).

MG, BS, Pipspook and Alignments all have weaker tier one/two skills, but while Pipspook and Alignments justify it by having an immensely powerful tier 2 & or 3 skill, Blessed Sisturn and Mourning Glory have an undertuned tier 3, hurting their branches. .

[Yifei_]

19 hours ago, WenericMember said:

MG, BS, Pipspook and Alignments all have weaker tier one/two skills, but while Pipspook and Alignments justify it by having an immensely powerful tier 2 & or 3 skill, Blessed Sisturn and Mourning Glory have an undertuned tier 3, hurting their branches. .

I actually believe that the Alignment skills I and II are stronger than III. The loss of AoE for Lunar Sisterhood III is a really severe penalty. I tried using Lunar Abigail in the ruins once, and it was basically a complete nerf: She couldn't fight shadow monkeys, there was no improvement against the Ancient Guardian or Nightmare Werepigs, she couldn't break Rictus' invisibility, and the improvement against the Bishop was not significant; she could still be killed by the Rook. As for Shadow Sisterhood III, the activation conditions feel detached from the actual gameplay. Instead of spending time gathering animals, wasting inventory space for them, and then killing them, it would be better to use that effort and resources directly in the boss battles. Moreover, the "murder" mechanic doesn't have a qualitative impact on boss fights for Abigail's stats, and her crowd control abilities are already very strong.

 

[yuntunhemudu]

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

I actually believe that the Alignment skills I and II are stronger than III. The loss of AoE for Lunar Sisterhood III is a really severe penalty. I tried using Lunar Abigail in the ruins once, and it was basically a complete nerf: She couldn't fight shadow monkeys, there was no improvement against the Ancient Guardian or Nightmare Werepigs, she couldn't break Rictus' invisibility, and the improvement against the Bishop was not significant; she could still be killed by the Rook. As for Shadow Sisterhood III, the activation conditions feel detached from the actual gameplay. Instead of spending time gathering animals, wasting inventory space for them, and then killing them, it would be better to use that effort and resources directly in the boss battles. Moreover, the "murder" mechanic doesn't have a qualitative impact on boss fights for Abigail's stats, and her crowd control abilities are already very strong.

 

Yes, the second level skills for Shadow Affinity and Lunar Affinity are set to a lower value, while the third level skills have strict limitations. It seems to be balanced, but this balance is one where both are equally weak. Now these two branches are more like some strategic skills. I don't know how speed players use them. I am not a speed player, I tend to use normal Abigail to collect resources and use Shadow Affinity and Lunar Affinity as strategic skills. For example, when I try to kill Nightmare Werepig, I use Gestalt Abby, and when I try to kill Dragonfly, I use Celestial Portal to switch to Shadow Affinity. However, has this really achieved the goal of designing these two branches by Corre. If so, why not loosen the lock between Shadow Affinity and Lunar Affinity. Frequent use of Celestial Portal to switch branches will ultimately lead players to become more inclined to use Wendy+Beefalo, and then switch to Wolfgang when facing bosses that Wendy+Beefalo is not good at handling, as this approach is obviously more convenient. If not, please provide a better solution.

Equally embarrassing is Blessed Sisturn. The purpose of setting up this branch should be to improve Abigail's survival ability and reduce the use of potions, coupled with its beautiful aesthetics. The overall goal is to benefit casual and light players with poor multi line operation ability. But in reality, Blessed Sisturn works like this: give up adjusting Abigail's position, just control Wendy's movements, when Abigail dies, stay away from the boss, use Spectral Cure-All and Ghastly Experience to heal Abigail, eat food to heal Wendy, and continue fighting. Repeat these operations until the boss dies.
Blessing Sisturn significantly increased the dosage of medication, so I lit up the Ghostly Elixir branch and further suggested adding the effects of plant care and better recovery of HP values through sleep in Blessing Sisturn skill.
If Klei do not approve of this gameplay, please provide a better solution. If Klei think this gameplay is allowed, please make it more convenient and make it look elegant and composed.
 

28 minutes ago, yuntunhemudu said:

If so, why not loosen the lock between Shadow Affinity and Lunar Affinity.

What I mean is to merge the six skills of Shadow Affinity and Moon Affinity into three skills.
When using Moon Dial, Abigail switches to Gestalt Abby, automatically triggering Lunar Affinity 1 and Lunar Affinity 2 effects. Gestalt Abby cannot trigger the Buff that kills butterflies, Shadow Affinity 1 and Shadow Affinity 2 effects are turned off.
When killing a butterfly, normal Abigail switches to Shadow Abby, automatically triggering Shadow Affinity 1 and Shadow Affinity 2 effects. In Shadow Abby mode, Lunar Affinity 1 and Lunar Affinity 2 effects are turned off, and Moon Dial cannot be used to switch to Gestalt Abby.
When maintaining a normal Abigail state, the first level skill provides 5% more damage to the shadow, 5% more damage to lunar, second level skill gives Abigail and Wendy 10 Planar Defence  each.

[Yifei_]

@Jason

I feel that my evaluation is missing an overall summary. This summary is also a critique of Wendy's skill tree designer. Similarly, I won't guarantee that my criticism won't be sharp, but I will ensure that my critique is free of any profanity, remains polite, relevant, and constructive. I have updated this general summary to the main post.

The entire skill tree brings changes to Wendy's previous gameplay only through the three skills of Team Spirits. In my post, I mentioned "not changing the CD calculation" mainly because I was worried that the designer might not understand how to modify it properly and could end up destroying this skill, which is at least functional now. Pipspook and Elixir merely fix some issues that were present with the original Ghostly Elixir. After seeing Walter's skill tree, I feel that these should have been part of the basekit rather than being used to pad out skill points. Walter has gained so much additional ammunition, while Wendy has only received one new type of potion, which doesn't introduce any new gameplay mechanics and is very dull.

Shadow Affinity is just a numerical enhancement to the original gameplay and has cumbersome trigger conditions. Is this supposed to be a homage to DS? My assessment is that it's a homage to nothingness; no one appreciates such a forced and impractical tribute. Lunar Affinity attempts to introduce new gameplay but the designer, constrained by so-called "balance," imposes restrictions everywhere (1s-stun), depriving players of autonomous control (removing damage from Attack At commands), resulting in the skill's practicality being still very poor. The Mourning Glory branch design is a classic example of "designers not playing the game." There were players on the forum suggesting the creation of Moon Moth, but no one thought that exchanging 40 Mourning Glories for 1 bug net was a design that someone who actually plays the game would come up with. That garland, also in the name of "balance," offers effects for each potion that are of very low utility. Finally, several useless skills are cobbled together to form a lump of uselessness. The resurrection method provided by MG III can only be considered as the designer being too lazy to write new code, copying the meat effigy, and then justifying its limited practicality with the excuse that "Wendy is too strong."

The entire skill tree is severely lacking in originality. "Wendy is too strong" is really a great excuse to cover up the rough design, conveniently shifting the designer's own issues into a conflict among players: you Wendy players are "insatiable," that's your problem. In this skill tree update, Wortox and Walter's skill trees are quite outstanding and interesting. As for Wendy, I can only wish her good luck.

[Steorra]

3 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

Shadow Affinity is just a numerical enhancement to the original gameplay and has cumbersome trigger conditions. Is this supposed to be a homage to DS? My assessment is that it's a homage to nothingness;

There's so many choices to fix the problem if the murder action would keep stay ngl:

I personally think to add a randomly teleport ability for getting hit to Shabby (just like what Shadow Creature did) would make the trigger condition become meaningful. The randomly teleport would be a good effect for boss fightings, but being a bad thing to hordes. Then the temporary mutation of Shabby would encourage us to choose different strategies for different scenarios.

And someone was suggested that to make "rabbit" "spider" the larger animals being more efficiency to the mutation of Shabby. Also mob died around Abby should trigger the mutation etc (This was the "Original" mechanic of DS of Abby summoning)

And, I don't want to give personal opinion here, but just a screenshot of the "DS" discussion.

 

3 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

depriving players of autonomous control (removing damage from Attack At commands),

This was the most paradoxical design of Lubby.

From the beginning, Lubby seems designed as an option for causual players who have Abby survival problems when in boss fights.

But later many changes come and told us "Lubby is still need your management, you should not expect 7/24 auto alive Abby".

However, according to the change you mentioned here, it seems Lubby was designed to discourage players to control her. "Your management to Lubby won't brings much benefit to you"

3 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

exchanging 40 Mourning Glories for 1 bug net

Tbh, the latest update of Thulecite Bug Net makes me feel like "was some quarrel happened to different devs?". Since the Thulecite Bug Net as a basekit seems just a sarcasm to the recipes of butterfly/moth.

3 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

That garland, also in the name of "balance," offers effects for each potion that are of very low utility.

Many players has asked for rework of elixir base kit of Wendy. Same for base kit rework of pipspook. But we knew what happened.

 

 

[yuntunhemudu]

35 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

@Jason

I feel that my evaluation is missing an overall summary. This summary is also a critique of Wendy's skill tree designer. Similarly, I won't guarantee that my criticism won't be sharp, but I will ensure that my critique is free of any profanity, remains polite, relevant, and constructive. I have updated this general summary to the main post.

The entire skill tree brings changes to Wendy's previous gameplay only through the three skills of Team Spirits. In my post, I mentioned "not changing the CD calculation" mainly because I was worried that the designer might not understand how to modify it properly and could end up destroying this skill, which is at least functional now. Pipspook and Elixir merely fix some issues that were present with the original Ghostly Elixir. After seeing Walter's skill tree, I feel that these should have been part of the basekit rather than being used to pad out skill points. Walter has gained so much additional ammunition, while Wendy has only received one new type of potion, which doesn't introduce any new gameplay mechanics and is very dull.

Shadow Affinity is just a numerical enhancement to the original gameplay and has cumbersome trigger conditions. Is this supposed to be a homage to DS? My assessment is that it's a homage to nothingness; no one appreciates such a forced and impractical tribute. Lunar Affinity attempts to introduce new gameplay but the designer, constrained by so-called "balance," imposes restrictions everywhere (1s-stun), depriving players of autonomous control (removing damage from Attack At commands), resulting in the skill's practicality being still very poor. The Mourning Glory branch design is a classic example of "designers not playing the game." There were players on the forum suggesting the creation of Moon Moth, but no one thought that exchanging 40 Mourning Glories for 1 bug net was a design that someone who actually plays the game would come up with. That garland, also in the name of "balance," offers effects for each potion that are of very low utility. Finally, several useless skills are cobbled together to form a lump of uselessness. The resurrection method provided by MG III can only be considered as the designer being too lazy to write new code, copying the meat effigy, and then justifying its limited practicality with the excuse that "Wendy is too strong."

The entire skill tree is severely lacking in originality. "Wendy is too strong" is really a great excuse to cover up the rough design, conveniently shifting the designer's own issues into a conflict among players: you Wendy players are "insatiable," that's your problem. In this skill tree update, Wortox and Walter's skill trees are quite outstanding and interesting. As for Wendy, I can only wish her good luck.

Hahaha, Walter players can now open champagne. And Wendy's Skill Tree seems to be far away from its suitable position. It's difficult to lead a large team. What people worry about is not scarcity but uneven distribution!

哈哈哈，沃特玩家可以开香槟了。而温蒂技能树离合适的位置还似乎遥遥无期。队伍大了不好带，不患寡而患不均！

19 minutes ago, Steorra said:

This was the most paradoxical design of Lubby.

From the beginning, Lubby seems designed as an option for causual players who have Abby survival problems when in boss fights.

But later many changes come and told us "Lubby is still need your management, you should not expect 7/24 auto alive Abby".

However, according to the change you mentioned here, it seems Lubby was designed to discourage players to control her. "Your management to Lubby won't brings much benefit to you"

Gestalt Abby is also indescribable. It becomes too strong when it strengthens and too weak when it weakens. Repeating changes over and over again not only wastes everyone's emotions but also distracts Klei's energy.

 

19 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Tbh, the latest update of Thulecite Bug Net makes me feel like "was some quarrel happened to different devs?". Since the Thulecite Bug Net as a basekit seems just a sarcasm to the recipes of butterfly/moth.

I hope this is just a conspiracy theory. If developers really argue with each other, Wendy's skill tree will be even more ruined.

[Yifei_]

42 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Tbh, the latest update of Thulecite Bug Net makes me feel like "was some quarrel happened to different devs?". Since the Thulecite Bug Net as a basekit seems just a sarcasm to the recipes of butterfly/moth.

4 mourning glory + 1 moon moth wing = 1 moon moth

2 mourning glory + 1 butterfly wing = 1 butterfly

And previous 1 mourning glory + 4 dark petal = 4 petal

It's astonishing that such impractical recipes could actually be created. When I first saw this utterly outrageous design, I EVEN felt like the designer was deliberately trying to frustrate players, or perhaps using his poor understanding of the game to "teach" players how to play.

48 minutes ago, Steorra said:

There's so many choices to fix the problem if the murder action would keep stay ngl:

I personally think to add a randomly teleport ability for getting hit to Shabby (just like what Shadow Creature did) would make the trigger condition become meaningless. The randomly teleport would be a good effect for boss fightings, but being a bad thing to hordes. Then the temporary mutation of Shabby would encourage us to choose different strategies for different scenarios.

And someone was suggested that to make "rabbit" "spider" the larger animals being more efficiency to the mutation of Shabby. Also mob died around Abby should trigger the mutation etc (This was the "Original" mechanic of DS of Abby summoning)

And, I don't want to give personal opinion here, but just a screenshot of the "DS" discussion.

And in DS, you have to kill a mob around you to summon Abigail, not a mob in your inventory. Killing a mob in your inventory won't work for summoning in DS. I think the designer didn't really get the so-called "tribute" right.

50 minutes ago, Steorra said:

This was the most paradoxical design of Lubby.

From the beginning, Lubby seems designed as an option for causual players who have Abby survival problems when in boss fights.

But later many changes come and told us "Lubby is still need your management, you should not expect 7/24 auto alive Abby".

However, according to the change you mentioned here, it seems Lubby was designed to discourage players to control her. "Your management to Lubby won't brings much benefit to you"

Throughout the entire skill tree, there are restrictions imposed on players at every turn, with the focus seemingly on how to "torture" players rather than enhance the gaming experience. It's difficult to evaluate such a design philosophy.

  

On 11/22/2024 at 6:32 AM, Jason said:

There is room for some of these skills to improve with feedback for sure. They are probably tuned a little low. The reason for that is Wendy is quite strong already. Winona for example got a lot of crazy stuff cause she wasn't a strong character to begin with. That should be kept in mind for all skill trees really. 

What a convenient excuse, using "too strong" to cover up the design flaws and then turning it into a debate among the player community: Wendy is too strong, and Wendy players are too greedy. Every skill tree should aim to make the character's playstyle more interesting, rather than creating such a poorly designed skill tree in the name of "balance."

 

[Adachi69]

15 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

It's astonishing that such impractical recipes could actually be created. When I first saw this utterly outrageous design, I EVEN felt like the designer was deliberately trying to frustrate players, or perhaps using his poor understanding of the game to "teach" players how to play.

I am just as mad as you are, but we gotta stay civil. It is pretty common to nerf popular characters to make people play other ones, so the devs logic isn't too bad. 
 

Quote

18 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

And in DS, you have to kill a mob around you to summon Abigail, not a mob in your inventory. Killing a mob in your inventory won't work for summoning in DS. I think the designer didn't really get the so-called "tribute" right.

Yeah, I would love to just dump 40 butterflies from a bundle to get the shadow Abigail, but it is what it is.
I am already considering accepting the hard truth of having a mediocre skill tree and wear it as an honour badge, as I don't need to have an OP one to be good at the game.

[Yifei_]

7 minutes ago, Adachi69 said:

I am just as mad as you are, but we gotta stay civil. It is pretty common to nerf popular characters to make people play other ones, so the devs logic isn't too bad. 

Yes, I did get a bit impatient. It's better to stay calm. Thank you for your reminder.

[Steorra]

42 minutes ago, Adachi69 said:

Yeah, I would love to just dump 40 butterflies from a bundle to get the shadow Abigail, but it is what it is.

the most ridiculous thing is that you have to suffer the risk of summoning Krampus once you want active the Shadow Form of Abby lol.

[Adachi69]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

the most ridiculous thing is that you have to suffer the risk of summoning Krampus once you want active the Shadow Form of Abby lol.

actually happened to me, no joke.

[Yifei_]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

the most ridiculous thing is that you have to suffer the risk of summoning Krampus once you want active the Shadow Form of Abby lol.

Is this also for the sake of "balance"? There's just too much "balance" that I can't understand...

[litfuu]

我完全同意。我个人不怎么玩 Wendy，但在我 2000 + 小时对游戏的了解中，Wendy 绝对不是一个强大的角色，而是奇怪地获得了与 Wolfgang 一样无趣且非常弱的技能树

[Yifei_]

5 hours ago, litfuu said:

我完全同意。我个人不怎么玩 Wendy，但在我 2000 + 小时对游戏的了解中，Wendy 绝对不是一个强大的角色，而是奇怪地获得了与 Wolfgang 一样无趣且非常弱的技能树

现在的技能树我觉得温蒂和沃尔夫冈的都很无聊，不过沃尔夫冈的技能树倒不算“弱”，30%阵营增伤和25位面伤害是实打实的数值提升（虽然这让沃尔夫冈更无聊了……）

我自己在玩饥荒的时候通常在单人档里玩温蒂，核心原因就是温蒂对我来说是一个很有挑战性的角色，并且单人档里有阿比陪伴也挺不错的。熟练后饥荒难度本就很低了，再选一个强力角色不就更简单了……

而在多人档里我几乎不玩温蒂。实话实说，在多人档里选温蒂的话会跟不上游戏节奏，她对团队的贡献很有限。尤其是快餐档：选温蒂基本默认你是一个萌新来划水摸鱼的，整局游戏完全可以当你这个人不存在（哦，还可以卡bug杀蛤蟆）。多人档我更喜欢玩奶奶，她的团队贡献能力相当强，可以担任建家核心和管理全队的资源。对于快餐这种特殊的玩法……威尔逊都比温蒂强，起码他可以在第三天做出彩虹宝石启动档案馆。

温蒂对新手友好，但想要达到她的上限条件困难，容错不高，而且需要很多的练习。另外，对于饥荒这种游戏，游戏性和趣味性应该是第一位的，其次才是平衡性。现在设计师为了追求所谓的“平衡性”做了一个几乎毫无趣味性的糟糕的技能树，这简直就是舍本逐末的行为。

[yuntunhemudu]

18 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

而在多人档里我几乎不玩温蒂。实话实说，在多人档里选温蒂的话会跟不上游戏节奏

深有感触。

 

19 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

多人档我更喜欢玩奶奶

多人档我看MOD，生存类MOD玩女武神或者伍迪，战斗类MOD玩沃夫冈或者恶魔人，哪怕不会玩也多少能参与一些事。玩温蒂的话感觉完全跟不上团队节奏，刷两下蜘蛛，然后啥事都参与不上就自己退了。

 

29 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

在多人档里选温蒂的话会跟不上游戏节奏，她对团队的贡献很有限

我来论坛反馈的前两条意见就是说这件事。但当时刚来论坛人微言轻，没人应和，科雷是一点都没听进去。

第二次热修后被人带节奏，在战斗数值上反复拉扯，话题就更加跑偏了。

过年的时候，有朋友一起联机，觉得和朋友一起玩的快乐更重要，才打定主意在温蒂现有技能树上修修补补勉强用算了。

过完年朋友跑路了，打开测试服盯着温蒂这破技能树，一点游戏欲望都没，领个礼物就下线了。难绷。

这事情真的不地道，我Steam列表有两个饥友都是因为技能树这档破事跑路的。

[1808220958]

13 minutes ago, yuntunhemudu said:

深有感触。

 

多人档我看MOD，生存类MOD玩女武神或者伍迪，战斗类MOD玩沃夫冈或者恶魔人，哪怕不会玩也多少能参与一些事。玩温蒂的话感觉完全跟不上团队节奏，刷两下蜘蛛，然后啥事都参与不上就自己退了。

 

我来论坛反馈的前两条意见就是说这件事。但当时刚来论坛人微言轻，没人应和，科雷是一点都没听进去。

第二次热修后被人带节奏，在战斗数值上反复拉扯，话题就更加跑偏了。

过年的时候，有朋友一起联机，觉得和朋友一起玩的快乐更重要，才打定主意在温蒂现有技能树上修修补补勉强用算了。

过完年朋友跑路了，打开测试服盯着温蒂这破技能树，一点游戏欲望都没，领个礼物就下线了。难绷。

这事情真的不地道，我Steam列表有两个饥友都是因为技能树这档破事跑路的。

从放假之前盼星星盼月亮等到快元宵节，科雷给出的回应是我们不承诺什么时候稳定更新，也不承诺稳定更新路线图

 

[yuntunhemudu]

19 minutes ago, 1808220958 said:

从放假之前盼星星盼月亮等到快元宵节，科雷给出的回应是我们不承诺什么时候稳定更新，也不承诺稳定更新路线图

喷技能树，喷科雷容易锁话题 ：）

16 minutes ago, yuntunhemudu said:

喷技能树，喷科雷容易锁话题 ：）

说穿了温蒂技能树就是要机制没机制、要新玩法没新玩法、没改善温蒂在多人档中尴尬的定位，反而因为薇洛和沃尔特的更新进一步边缘化。说不能加数值的，我也明白加数值很无聊啊，但现在大家都改不动了，那也只能加数值了。至于那些说温蒂热门了四年，现在该蹲下水道的说法，我是理都不想理。

1 hour ago, Yifei_ said:

虽然这让沃尔夫冈更无聊了……

单人档和纯净多人档沃尔夫冈确实挺无聊的。但MOD档沃尔夫冈好玩的，特别是队友被BOSS杀得到处乱窜，你有条不紊地用健身房突破力量上限，然后像战神一样邦邦敲BOSS的时候。

[yuntunhemudu]

从这个角度看，温蒂和沃尔夫冈差了两个级别，温蒂处在纯净档都混不好的位置，沃尔夫冈是在纯净档太超模，只有在MOD档打同样超模的BOSS才能享受到乐趣。

[Yifei_]

10 hours ago, yuntunhemudu said:

我来论坛反馈的前两条意见就是说这件事。但当时刚来论坛人微言轻，没人应和，科雷是一点都没听进去。

第二次热修后被人带节奏，在战斗数值上反复拉扯，话题就更加跑偏了。

过年的时候，有朋友一起联机，觉得和朋友一起玩的快乐更重要，才打定主意在温蒂现有技能树上修修补补勉强用算了。

过完年朋友跑路了，打开测试服盯着温蒂这破技能树，一点游戏欲望都没，领个礼物就下线了。难绷。

这事情真的不地道，我Steam列表有两个饥友都是因为技能树这档破事跑路的。

放假前：“我真幸运，虽然技能树被推迟了，但可以在寒假玩到正式服了！”

假期都要结束了温蒂技能树还是这么抽象，难绷。

10 hours ago, yuntunhemudu said:

说穿了温蒂技能树就是要机制没机制、要新玩法没新玩法、没改善温蒂在多人档中尴尬的定位，反而因为薇洛和沃尔特的更新进一步边缘化。说不能加数值的，我也明白加数值很无聊啊，但现在大家都改不动了，那也只能加数值了。至于那些说温蒂热门了四年，现在该蹲下水道的说法，我是理都不想理。

新机制：复活蝴蝶、裹尸布、花瓣净化。喜欢新机制吗（

多人档里能替代温蒂的功能的角色太多了。伍迪和薇洛都有很不错的AoE，而且他们能给团队提供的远不止AoE这一方面的内容。而温蒂呢，真就打打蜘蛛和蜜蜂吧。快餐档里的温蒂唯一的特色就是卡bug速杀蛤蟆了吧……

9 hours ago, yuntunhemudu said:

从这个角度看，温蒂和沃尔夫冈差了两个级别，温蒂处在纯净档都混不好的位置，沃尔夫冈是在纯净档太超模，只有在MOD档打同样超模的BOSS才能享受到乐趣。

听起来像是永恒新界。这个模组战斗内容太多了，我没怎么玩明白，还是更喜欢建家一点（

10 hours ago, 1808220958 said:

从放假之前盼星星盼月亮等到快元宵节，科雷给出的回应是我们不承诺什么时候稳定更新，也不承诺稳定更新路线图

最难熬的是春节前的那个月，科雷啥交流都没有，每周五猜有没有测试服更新，周五没有猜周六，周六过了又是一周……

[yuntunhemudu]

On 2/8/2025 at 10:13 AM, yuntunhemudu said:

On 2/8/2025 at 10:13 AM, yuntunhemudu said:

If so, why not loosen the lock between Shadow Affinity and Lunar Affinity.

What I mean is to merge the six skills of Shadow Affinity and Moon Affinity into three skills.
When using Moon Dial, Abigail switches to Gestalt Abby, automatically triggering Lunar Affinity 1 and Lunar Affinity 2 effects. Gestalt Abby cannot trigger the Buff that kills butterflies, Shadow Affinity 1 and Shadow Affinity 2 effects are turned off.
When killing a butterfly, normal Abigail switches to Shadow Abby, automatically triggering Shadow Affinity 1 and Shadow Affinity 2 effects. In Shadow Abby mode, Lunar Affinity 1 and Lunar Affinity 2 effects are turned off, and Moon Dial cannot be used to switch to Gestalt Abby.
When maintaining a normal Abigail state, the first level skill provides 5% more damage to the shadow, 5% more damage to lunar, second level skill gives Abigail and Wendy 10 Planar Defence  each.

I withdraw the idea of merging two affinity branches because this modification only makes these two unreasonable branches look a little more glamorous, but does not address the real problem. The real problem is about new interesting gameplay, new interesting mechanisms, and better team positioning.

 

On 2/8/2025 at 10:13 AM, yuntunhemudu said:

But in reality, Blessed Sisturn works like this: give up adjusting Abigail's position, just control Wendy's movements, when Abigail dies, stay away from the boss, use Spectral Cure-All and Ghastly Experience to heal Abigail, eat food to heal Wendy, and continue fighting. Repeat these operations until the boss dies.

I agree to make significant changes to the GE, but the direction of the change must be beneficial to novice and less skilled players. I am well aware that a portion of Wendy's skill tree is reserved for novice and less skilled players, such as Flower Armor, Gestalt Abby with unbeatable frames, and the current version's horror experiences. But these contents have been strongly questioned, for example, Flower Armor encourages Wendy to fight alone, Gestalt Abby with invincible frames encourages Abigail to fight alone, and GE encourage Abigail to die multiple times in battle.
It is worth noting that the issue of GE is much less than that of Flower Armor and Gestalt Abby with invincible frames. At least it encourages Wendy and Abigail to fight together, and the problem is only when players with low proficiency need to shamelessly sacrifice Abigail at certain times and then resurrect it.
If there are new skills that benefit beginners and players with low proficiency, I will agree no matter what the GE becomes. However, the current suggestion is to only focus on Nerf GE and not provide solutions that are beneficial for novice and less skilled players.
 

So what skills can benefit beginners and players with low proficiency without affecting players with high proficiency? An example is the battle guidance UI automatically initiated by Abigail, in which Abigail guides Wendy to correctly position herself and Abigail. Once Wendy follows the guidance, she can avoid Abigail from being damaged by the boss. If the skill is not lit up, the UI will not appear. Of course, this may not have the possibility of implementation, so it is just an example.

36 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

听起来像是永恒新界。这个模组战斗内容太多了，我没怎么玩明白，还是更喜欢建家一点

传奇附魔、海钓、孤岛抽奖机、风滚草、赌狗模拟器、为爽而虐、永不妥协我都玩，一开始是朋友带，后面就自己进公共服务器瞎玩，

9 minutes ago, yuntunhemudu said:

48 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

听起来像是永恒新界。这个模组战斗内容太多了，我没怎么玩明白，还是更喜欢建家一点

传奇附魔、海钓、孤岛抽奖机、风滚草、赌狗模拟器、为爽而虐、永不妥协我都玩，一开始是朋友带，后面就自己进公共服务器瞎玩，

MOD档别玩温蒂的另一个原因是，如果阿比盖尔之花被烧了，很难找到材料再作一个。所以温蒂玩家在公共服务器下线的时候，一般都会把自己的阿比盖尔之花留在基地，留给后面的倒霉蛋温蒂。

Another reason not to play Wendy in MOD public server is that if the Abigail's Flower is burned, it will be difficult to find materials to make another one. So when Wendy players go offline on the public server, they usually leave their Abigail's Flower at the base for the unlucky Wendy behind.

[Yifei_]

22 hours ago, yuntunhemudu said:

So what skills can benefit beginners and players with low proficiency without affecting players with high proficiency? An example is the battle guidance UI automatically initiated by Abigail, in which Abigail guides Wendy to correctly position herself and Abigail. Once Wendy follows the guidance, she can avoid Abigail from being damaged by the boss. If the skill is not lit up, the UI will not appear. Of course, this may not have the possibility of implementation, so it is just an example.

Actually, I feel that both the Vengeful Ghost and Wilson's Torch skills have a common issue. The designers seem to think that a skill being "newbie-friendly" and "useful for veterans" are mutually exclusive. In the name of "catering to new players," they have designed the skills in a way that is not only impractical but also quite absurd. A well-designed skill should be able to satisfy both "newbie-friendliness" and "usefulness for veterans." We should not overlook the inherent design flaws of a skill just because it might be useful for new players.