wortox Naughty/Nice Dialogue is OOC

[crushcircuit]

I really love the theming of Wortox's skill tree, but constantly seeing dialogue that is inaccurate to the rest of his portrayal is... a bit bothersome. Especially since the replaced dialogue is stuff that you see constantly, because Wortox is a character that talks a LOT. Although the worst of it was already patched out (we mustn't speak of pigman wortox here), I still find Wortox's Naughty/Nice dialogue to be too extreme.

This post is going to be pretty damn subjective and opinionated, as character interpretations tend to be, so do keep that in mind. All of this is my personal interpretation of Wortox's character.

Here are his Neutral quotes for comparison, as this is part of the standard I'm holding the rest of these to. I will also be providing examples of his examine quotes when relevant.

Spoiler

    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_EMPTY =
    {
        "Woe be to a soul-starved imp!",
        "I don't want to suck anymore souls!",
        "What gruesome things I must do to live!",
    },
    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_FEW =
    {
        "I'll need more souls soon.",
        "I feel the soul hunger stirring.",
    },
    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_MANY =
    {
        "I've enough souls to sustain me.",
        "I hope I was not too greedy.",
    },
    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_OVERLOAD =
    {
        "I can't handle that much soul power!",
        "That was one soul too many!",
    },

Nice is... fine I guess? It's a bit on-the-nose sometimes, but it's not explicitly out of character - it just feels like it could be polished a bit more. Some lines feel like they're hammering the point in a bit too much, although it is extremely hard to beat how succinct and wonderful his Neutral quotes already are.

In Wortox's Nice quotes, one thing that I noticed is the choice to make him rhyme here. Wortox, of course, is known for rhyming in his dialogue, that's just how he speaks... but it may surprise some people to know that, often times, his quotes actually don't rhyme. Perhaps it's a difference in writing direction-- as I have noticed it coming up more in recent dialogue-- but speaking generally I notice that his rhymes give a much more jovial tone to his words. As such, he usually doesn't do it in his more serious moments, yet here that's not the case. This makes the dialogue feel just a bit off in comparison to Neutral, maybe a bit confusing in tone.

Spoiler

    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_EMPTY_NICE =
    {
        "I'm afraid I must feed soon.",
        "Curse my need to feed!",
        "It is tragic that they must die so that I may have life.",
    },
    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_FEW_NICE =
    {
        "Oh dear. Running low on souls, I fear.",
        "I have precious few souls left.", --fine
    },
    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_MANY_NICE =
    {
        "Oh my, I've taken so many!",
        "Such abundance. Many thanks!", --this is cute
    },
    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_OVERLOAD_NICE = --both of these are good
    {
        "I was too greedy!",
        "Those poor souls have gone to waste!",
    },

I've added comments here to better indicate which quotes I think are fine - you'll notice that it's pretty much a 50/50 split. I actually don't mind his nice lines that much. I just don't feel very passionate about them, negatively or positively, as opposed to the other two; his Neutral quotes are fantastic (i mean, they've always been there, so naturally i'd think so), his Nice quotes are just kind of meh. They're not grossly out of character, they're just a bit corny.

As for how to make these more distinct without being out of character... I like that in certain quotes he seems to be dealing with it in a bit of a healthier manner than neutral. The branch focuses on utilizing souls in a cost-effective and assistive manner, so it would make sense for that to help in coping with his curse. I find that some of the quotes are way too direct in what they're trying to convey, feeling as if it's "spelling it out" for you (like most of his SOUL_EMPTY quotes. The last one in particular is just way too much for dialogue you're seeing constantly. It gets grating fast). The portrayal here just seems a bit inconsistent, and it could use some refinement.

Naughty on the other hand.... is just outright wrong? It will often directly conflict with other examination quotes you encounter in normal gameplay-- and sometimes you don't even have to go out of your way to see the cracks.

Wortox is a pretty mournful and guilty person. He's very caring of the creatures that he unfortunately has to kill to survive, and seems to really dislike himself as a result; he constantly makes self-deprecating remarks for a myriad of reasons, but especially his curse. His curse is not something he takes pride in. Yes, he does like how souls taste, but that does not mean he enjoys the cost of consuming them.

Spoiler

    WORTOX_SOUL = "Hyuyu! It looks tasty.",
    FROGFISHBOWL = "I'd rather have a nice fresh soul.",
    LEAFYMEATSOUFFLE = "I'll stick to souls, thank you.",
    WOBSTER_SHELLER_DEAD_COOKED = "Oh dear, the best part's already gone.",
    
    HONEYCOMB = "Former bee home. Sorry bees.",
    TALLBIRDEGG_COOKED = "So sorry, Ms. Bird.",
    MINIBOATLANTERN = "I'm sorry, but the souls I take cannot follow you.",
    GLOMMERFLOWER.DEAD = "Oh no, oh dear!",
    PIGMAN.DEAD = "Oh my goodness, no.", --unused but applicable to his character
    FROG.DEAD = "I am sorry! So sorry!", --see above
    SPIDER.DEAD = "Sorry! I'm sorry.", --see above

    MOLE.HELD = "Careful, I don't want to accidentally touch you.",
    BEE.HELD = "Careful now, little mortal.",
    BUTTERFLY.HELD = "I'll try not to suck your soul out.",
    CANARY =
    {
        GENERIC = "Let's look out for each other, you and I.",
        HELD = "Mind my paws now.",
      },
    CROW =
    {
        GENERIC = "Clever trickster.",
        HELD = "Careful, don't touch my hands.",
    },
    FEATHER_CROW = "A memento of my jet feathered friend.",
    FEATHER_ROBIN = "To remind myself of its sweet beaky face.",
    FEATHER_ROBIN_WINTER = "A keepsake of a gentle blue friend.",
    FEATHER_CANARY = "A token, to remember its sweet song by.",

    ANNOUNCE_CRAFTING_FAIL = "My hands are truly cursed.",
    ANNOUNCE_SACREDCHEST_NO = "It seems my soul is too tarnished.",
    ANNOUNCE_SACREDCHEST_YES = "I'm... worthy?",
    ANNOUNCE_HUNGRY = "Oh no, I'm hungry again.",
    MINERHAT = "A head light to brighten my dreary thoughts.",
    SHOVEL = "I could dig a hole where I belong!",
    BALLOON = "I often feel like I might float away. Hyuyu!",
    SALTLICK = "I've been told I don't make a lick of sense.",
    TRINKET_3 = "Tied like my tongue!", --Gord's Knot
    TRINKET_6 = "Frizzle-frazzled like my mind!", --Frazzled Wires
    TRINKET_19 = "I feel unbalanced too!", --Unbalanced Top
    TRINKET_22 = "Fried and frayed, just like my brain!", --Frayed Yarn
    STALKER = "Your mind's not quite right, but neither is mine!",
    --there are so much more of these.

It does not feel feasible that he could ever get to such an extreme where he actively enjoys being the "soul-sucking evil demon" that he perceives himself to be. I understand that the point of the skill tree is to push him further along the edge, but even then I do not think he could ever be so apathetic and proud of it.

I don't understand how the same guy who actively mourns for every little creature he's had to slaughter (no matter how insignificant) could show such blatant disrespect for the souls he's gathered like this:

Spoiler

    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_EMPTY_NAUGHTY =
    {
        "I am absolutely famished!",
        "I'm starved for some delicious souls!",
        "I yearn for those tasty treats!",
    },
    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_FEW_NAUGHTY =
    {
        "My collection is running low.",
        "I'll need a soul snack soon.",
    },
    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_MANY_NAUGHTY =
    {
        "When is enough enough? Never! Hyuyu!",
        "I love a feast of souls.",
    },
    ANNOUNCE_SOUL_OVERLOAD_NAUGHTY =
    {
        "My precious souls!",
        "Those were mine! All mine!",
    },

Wortox is such a sweet guy and it's quite sad to see him saying things that outright contradict his previous character. I admit it is a bit difficult to execute something like this and keep it within the realm of plausibility, especially with it being these specific quotes, but I believe there is a middle ground to be had here.

I know that the aim for Naughty as a whole is being a bit more selfish and greedy, so I think it would be possible to make him act a bit more reclusive. Much less proud of what he's doing, but moreso acting out of necessity, having simply given up and given in to what he thinks he's meant to be - "it's in my nature" sort of thing. He's been trying so hard for so long to be a nice person, and it's so taxing. He doesn't think he ever truly can be a good person. Maybe giving in would be easier, he'd think, but it's not. It just makes him even more miserable and alone, burying his own feelings down in an attempt to protect himself from them.

Once again, this is all personal opinion, but it has been something that has been bothering me for the duration of this beta, considering I am a bit of a lore buff. I hope that I have also sufficiently explained why I find these to be inconsistent behavior for him, and I am open to giving further elaboration if I've lost anybody here.

Ultimately, I do like the idea of Wortox's Naughty/Nice inclination affecting his behavior, and I find this coupled with the affinities distorting and weighing the scales further absolutely fascinating to think about. I simply wish that these felt more like extensions of his character, rather than just black-and-white exaggerations.

[Echsrick]

i feel like its kind of what happens to imps when they truly imbrace there nature, i guess some other quotes would need to changes aswell for like living creatures mostly, like there mind in a way gets more darker and selfish kind of deal, guess so more like evil gruel side of being a demon you could say

[crushcircuit]

7 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

i feel like its kind of what happens to imps when they truly imbrace there nature, i guess some other quotes would need to changes aswell for like living creatures mostly, like there mind in a way gets more darker and selfish kind of deal, guess so more like evil gruel side of being a demon you could say

imps, as a species, don't all collectively eat souls. wortox specifically eats souls. it wouldn't be considered "wortox's curse" if that's just how all imps are.

i don't want them to change his other quotes. it would be better to keep him consistent than to change his entire demeanor for the sake of a skill tree. i also don't think that "embracing himself as a demon" would make him completely flip his personality on a dime, you know? he's just a trickster, he's not evil.

[Radicaljoe]

2 minutes ago, crushcircuit said:

he's just a trickster, he's not evil.

"Cruel-hearted fun still requires a heart, and that's where our two scoundrels drifted apart."

[Echsrick]

11 minutes ago, crushcircuit said:

imps, as a species, don't all collectively eat souls. wortox specifically eats souls. it wouldn't be considered "wortox's curse" if that's just how all imps are

i mean i guess, but what about wortox uncorpoutet skin quote? something like "ol krampus told me that my powers sould soon awaken" wich i guess could implie how imps evolve...and souls and stuff, wich makes me just asume its like kind of in nature at some point for imps

[crushcircuit]

5 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

i mean i guess, but what about wortox uncorpoutet skin quote? something like "ol krampus told me that my powers sould soon awaken" wich i guess could implie how imps evolve...and souls and stuff, wich makes me just asume its like kind of in nature at some point for imps

i don't think wortox knew that his powers would be soul magic, considering the krampii don't seem to have soul magic either. i doubt it would've caught him by surprise if that was a normal thing for imps, and if so he wouldn't later start referring to it as a curse.

i will say that further speculation on this would seep into headcanon territory since wortox is (purposefully) vague about how imps are. (he does say they don't share information freely...) and i would prefer to keep this thread based in what we know for certain.

[Tarnishedmax]

This is something that has also been bothering me a bunch, despite how fun naughty is from a gameplay perspective there is always this small itch that just made me think "he would not say that/be like that" every time i see his new quotes, i think nice Wortox is silly and it works but naughty is just SO out of character its gets kinda tiresome, i personally really care a lot for character quotes and seeing the contrast of him being all sad about killing things and caring for others and suddenly act like he is a demon its just so weird, feels like its modded even.

Naughty should make Wortox be more depressed/sad but accepting of having to consume souls to live, embracing his nature wouldn't just randomly do a 180 to his personality, i think it would just make him sad if anything.

[Debruh]

1 hour ago, Tarnishedmax said:

This is something that has also been bothering me a bunch, despite how fun naughty is from a gameplay perspective there is always this small itch that just made me think "he would not say that/be like that" every time i see his new quotes, i think nice Wortox is silly and it works but naughty is just SO out of character its gets kinda tiresome, i personally really care a lot for character quotes and seeing the contrast of him being all sad about killing things and caring for others and suddenly act like he is a demon its just so weird, feels like its modded even.

Naughty should make Wortox be more depressed/sad but accepting of having to consume souls to live, embracing his nature wouldn't just randomly do a 180 to his personality, i think it would just make him sad if anything.

Him resigning himself to his fate as a creature that feeds off souls, after hanging out with some survivors that resigned themselves to their fate, makes much more sense than just randomly losing his morals

[Echsrick]

1 hour ago, Tarnishedmax said:

Naughty should make Wortox be more depressed/sad

please no, we allready have one depression character, theres no need for another one

[shigu.exe]

I'm very glad someone brought this up, as I've been having some similar thoughts about certain things with the beta as well.

Did anyone else notice that the most recent patch snuck in some new idle animations for the Inclinations?

The classic.

What is he doing...?

??????

I don't want to be rude, as I'm sure a lot of effort went into making these, I'm just... very confused about the direction they went with.

Going back to what OP had to say about characterization, I'd like to add onto it a bit. You know the Pan Flute skills that let you use it for free every day or so and that generates 6 souls when used? It's stated that playing the Flute "brings lost souls around for a listen", which carries with it the implication that Souls just kind of... ambiently exist in the Constant? It's a way for Wortox to get Souls without having to suck souls (which he hates doing), and 6 souls a day is more than enough for him to sustain himself. I don't expect most people to have thought that deeply about it, but it really does undermine a fundamental character trait of his (that is, having to cut other's lives short in order to extend his).

This one isn't really out-of-character so much as illogical, but the Nice Inclination's ability of removing the "monster" tag from Wortox that makes creatures like Pigs hostile towards him has always irked me. Not only is it a weird precedent of removing a character downside through a Skill Tree, but the implication is that Wortox's demeanour was what caused the hostility to begin with, as opposed to his appearance? Of course, this logic falls apart as soon as you consider Webber, who despite looking monstrous is pretty much as polite as they come, yet still gets punched.

[crushcircuit]

10 minutes ago, shigu.exe said:

This one isn't really out-of-character so much as illogical, but the Nice Inclination's ability of removing the "monster" tag from Wortox that makes creatures like Pigs hostile towards him has always irked me. Not only is it a weird precedent of removing a character downside through a Skill Tree, but the implication is that Wortox's demeanour was what caused the hostility to begin with, as opposed to his appearance? Of course, this logic falls apart as soon as you consider Webber, who despite looking monstrous is pretty much as polite as they come, yet still gets punched.

why do catcoons care about my morality.

i agree, it's not because he's a prankster, it's because wortox literally looks like the devil. from the bible. i've made a post about this as well, although it was primarily gameplay-focused:

16 minutes ago, shigu.exe said:

Going back to what OP had to say about characterization, I'd like to add onto it a bit. You know the Pan Flute skills that let you use it for free every day or so and that generates 6 souls when used? It's stated that playing the Flute "brings lost souls around for a listen", which carries with it the implication that Souls just kind of... ambiently exist in the Constant? It's a way for Wortox to get Souls without having to suck souls (which he hates doing), and 6 souls a day is more than enough for him to sustain himself. I don't expect most people to have thought that deeply about it, but it really does undermine a fundamental character trait of his (that is, having to cut other's lives short in order to extend his).

this is a fair take, i don't personally mind it but i can definitely see how it might feel odd. i personally really enjoy that skill gameplay-wise, and i think the idea of it is cute for a neutral skill

i also like his nice inclination idle, i think its fun, and i actually didnt like his neutral idle that much haha. i dont have strong feelings about naughty's idle, i just wish he looked a little less angry? i think there are interesting ways that could be interpreted if naughty was rewritten though.

[Koomin]

To be honest I'm pretty happy that naughty Wortox leans more towards the evil side.  It's fun to have a more evil option in the game, it fits with what being a naughty imp would be, and it's not even a forced choice for people that want to play Wortox and not be evil.  We have so many good aligned characters in the game already that adding a more evil option for one of them seems great.

[Steorra]

3 hours ago, Koomin said:

To be honest I'm pretty happy that naughty Wortox leans more towards the evil side.  It's fun to have a more evil option in the game, it fits with what being a naughty imp would be, and it's not even a forced choice for people that want to play Wortox and not be evil.  We have so many good aligned characters in the game already that adding a more evil option for one of them seems great.

I agree with your opinions, evil character is fun. But what we discussing here is that the quote lines of Nauphy is seems being a bit paradoxical to their original quotes.

[Tarnishedmax]

16 hours ago, Echsrick said:

please no, we allready have one depression character, theres no need for another one

He already is though, probably the most self deprecating character in the entire game, Wendy is depressed but she is more "emo" about it, Wortox has always been depressed but in a full of self hatred way, going further into that its just adding to his already existing character.

[Echsrick]

34 minutes ago, Tarnishedmax said:

He already is though, probably the most self deprecating character in the entire game, Wendy is depressed but she is more "emo" about it, Wortox has always been depressed but in a full of self hatred way, going further into that its just adding to his already existing character.

he is not