Do not shift responsibilty onto the player

[Evelo]

This feels like a strawman. but everyone hates when people calling out fallacies. Just feels like it though.

[DVGMedia]

1 hour ago, Epireum said:

There's also my concern with multiple Wendy's with multiple sisturns in a server and how that will work with the lune petals if several have blessed 3 enabled.

Ive always kind of thought they would follow the creator tag and so only the maker of the sisturn can gain the powers from it but im not exactly sure how they would be dealing with it.

since the sisturns abilities are usually universal

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

This feels like a strawman. but everyone hates when people calling out fallacies. Just feels like it though.

well no its an argument trope used by people who create the problem not take responsibility for their actions. By makeing others say they are responsible for what happens.
You can help solve this by simply giving of yourself for the greater good!
Its no longer addressing the problems at hand but shifting it to a self fulfilling one Which doesn't actually do anything against the problem

The main problems right now is that sisturn 3 is a nerf to abby in general

But the solutions seem to be player motivated.
"Just don't use it"
"take out the petals when you don't need it"
"unsummon abby when she needs healing"
Those are all player actions however
The players should not have to remedy themselves to make a perk usuable just cause klei wants it to be thematic to a certain idea.

This happens alot on updates. luckliy ive been able to remedy most things that i don't like with mods (the crafting menu and pickup sound changes) however this is something integral to my main.  And I would like to be able to play on other servers with it.


 

1 hour ago, Epireum said:

Maybe they could change the nerf to only work when in close proximity of boss monsters just like how boss monsters have proximity sanity drain. (Could allow for lore wise around players and sanity since she's now a player in terms of damage or how players are affected different by potions.) Then you could utilize the escape and dash attack commands more to strat heal? That's all I got atm. 

I think they should make it work like that so that its not just a general nerf to abby

[reddocc]

giving Abigail 1200 hp against everything is just too much, It would make healing potions and potions triggered on-hit x2 effective, it would make Abigail survivality twice as effective, this is just another instance of Wendy players not wanting to have a single optional skill point and wanting everything at all times, an iteration of this skill was already tested with a temporal shield with Abigail because if this worked instantly you would just change the petals when Abigail is full hp. If this worked overtime everybody would hate it and complain of yet another mechanic where waiting is necessary.

In this iteration of the skill the only drawback is having spectrall cure all nerfed, Wich is already dirt cheap considering you can get up to 20 morning glories with a single pipspook

Abigail survivality can be further improved using the commands in her skill tree.

this skill tree is overall one of the worst ones because most of it is just Abigail skill tree justified by sisterly bond or something like that.

 

[DVGMedia]

21 minutes ago, Pedro cc said:

 

It was generally accepted that a lvl 4 abby with like 900 hp was a good choice comprimise It gave more surviablity .
The reason the old sisturn was hated was because it required waiting and was only temporary. If it wasn't temporary then maybe it would have seen more use..
 

[Bumber64]

9 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Even Americans shouldn't say things like that to Americans.

Time for an apology tour. Thanks, Obama.

8 hours ago, aidankocherhans said:

I mean she's not actually unkillable without maintenance, healing potions are a huge part of what makes her so good against hordes of enemies

You aren't using elixirs most of the time. If you set out to fight a bunch of mobs, you probably didn't put fresh blossoms in the sisturn.

[ArcAngela]

Giving the player agency on the tools they have to apply situational abilities to different situations is good, actually.

It's called "giving options", not "shifting responsibility".

[DVGMedia]

11 minutes ago, ArcAngela said:

Giving the player agency on the tools they have to apply situational abilities to different situations is good, actually.

It's called "giving options", not "shifting responsibility".

and thats the folly of this
Its not giving agency its masking a problem

[Siren11]

8 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

You aren't using elixirs most of the time. If you set out to fight a bunch of mobs, you probably didn't put fresh blossoms in the sisturn.

I think the bigger issue would be mobs that you could run into on the way to a boss fight, like frog rain, depths worms, possibly even late-game hound waves. I don’t like that potential interaction. Mostly because I have the worst luck/timing.

Besides that though, Blessed Sisturn III is… fine. It’s more complicated than it needs to be, but we get the lore stuff and the animation is lovely. I did a little testing (which I’m not very good at, so I’m excited to see what others will do) and some math. I think it will help smooth out Wendy’s boss fight learning curve since mistakes aren’t quite so punishing, but you can still lose Abigail. I might not love this version, but I will accept it.

Also, I am still curious about CC. If it’s not double damage to mobs like the other bosses (and I’m not convinced we weren’t somehow wrong about that), is it worth using Blessed Sisturn III? I’ve never done the fight so I’m not sure.

[Evelo]

6 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

The players should not have to remedy themselves to make a perk usuable just cause klei wants it to be thematic to a certain idea.

But why? Fundamentally why should the player not have to counteract a downside through play?

[DVGMedia]

22 minutes ago, Evelo said:

But why? Fundamentally why should the player not have to counteract a downside through play?

yeah if that is the challenge the player is faced through the game itself

But having it deliberately given purely for purpose of thematics when there were options to avoid such a situation.

[Evelo]

9 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

yeah if that is the challenge the player is faced through the game itself

But having it deliberately given purely for purpose of thematics when there were options to avoid such a situation.

I don't quite follow considering the challenge is in the game itself.

[lio516]

You are right, we have so many comments and ideas, the main developers did not respond to us directly, but instead a group of people who do not see the nature of the problem is draining our energy, the developers are completely avoiding the problem, refusing to communicate with the players, I just feel sick and disappointed

[Mr Giggio]

On 1/24/2025 at 11:35 AM, DVGMedia said:

This is an argument type used to take advantage of people

Sir, did you saw how many of aggressive and demanding coments we had from the get go as soon this started? 

Its not their fault the nerfing and wanting it to change BUT YOU CANT BLAME ANYONE ELSE for your behavior but you. I dont care if you payed to play. Its not Klei's fault that people are mad and threating this as their personal Twitter. We never had such a episode in the whole story of the game like it is right now. Its self centered and when u point it out they play a victim card. Im not buying it. This is not League of Legends. Never saw this place in this state before and Wolfgang was pretty controversial. 

Im saying this because it is part of where the retaliation comes from. Its a lot of flood to not blame the players to be considerate about actions in and off the game.

[DVGMedia]

12 hours ago, Mr Giggio said:

Sir, did you saw how many of aggressive and demanding coments we had from the get go as soon this started? 

Its not their fault the nerfing and wanting it to change BUT YOU CANT BLAME ANYONE ELSE for your behavior but you. I dont care if you payed to play. Its not Klei's fault that people are mad and threating this as their personal Twitter. We never had such a episode in the whole story of the game like it is right now. Its self centered and when u point it out they play a victim card. Im not buying it. This is not League of Legends. Never saw this place in this state before and Wolfgang was pretty controversial. 

Im saying this because it is part of where the retaliation comes from. Its a lot of flood to not blame the players to be considerate about actions in and off the game.

When emotions run high i know sometimes people don't think straight.
Frankly it should show you something is up considering  how emotionally charged people got. Something must be really wrong if they ended up having  to resort to such tactics.
Is it a good thing they resort to that?
No it should never be such a way. But its hard to control when in an aroused state.

Im trying to look out for kleis best interests too. you just got a glimpse of the the beast.  That rules many corporate lives

The argument i am saying however is more on what others are saying to players.
The "Wendy players are never satisfied"
Or other things such as. "Its fine Why are you not fine with this?"

If you are emotionally charged and people are telling you don't be mad That would just make you even more furious. Because there is no validation of the emotion

You have to lower the temperature first before trying to make logical reasoning
 

[DaDa_waw]

12 hours ago, Mr Giggio said:

Sir, did you saw how many of aggressive and demanding coments we had from the get go as soon this started?

Its not their fault the nerfing and wanting it to change BUT YOU CANT BLAME ANYONE ELSE for your behavior but you. I dont care if you payed to play. Its not Klei's fault that people are mad and threating this as their personal Twitter. We never had such a episode in the whole story of the game like it is right now. Its self centered and when u point it out they play a victim card. Im not buying it. This is not League of Legends. Never saw this place in this state before and Wolfgang was pretty controversial.

Im saying this because it is part of where the retaliation comes from. Its a lot of flood to not blame the players to be considerate about actions in and off the game.

When some new players try to provide reasonable and well founded opinions, many people only think about opposing and ridiculing them with the core of their lowly exclusionary ideas.

 

When there is no feedback on the efforts of the players who provide suggestions, exclusionary people continue to ridicule and angrily criticize the "insatiable greed of outsiders" in an attempt to expel them. At this point, the players who tried to provide feedback began to get angry.

 

People who are exclusionary are even willing to betray their identity as players to seek benefits for the manufacturer, thereby preventing the opinions of players who provide suggestions from receiving the feedback they deserve.

 

Almost all the players who tried their best to provide feedback were angry. They had worked hard for so many months and had nothing. And arrogant and exclusionary people began to use this as an excuse to boast and say, 'They are just mobs.'.

 

This is all the historical background you are trying to cry out about. Rome was not built in a day, and arrogance is the most despicable.

[Echsrick]

sometimes the truth hurts, i dont care who gets hit by it its simply a fact that the truth can hurt some people, its just a by product of reality of this world, and i wont have it any other way, one could try twist it, but that would create a lie.....and maybe is tried to be sold as a truth....a kind of truth that hurts truth seekers, the actual truth that is not something someone spins and twist it to there own views....it does not matter who dit and dit not do any of that, the fact says

the fruth can and will hurt, and people will start discussing what the real truth is, they will fight for there side, be it truth or the lies, it matters not because no side will actualy agree with the other side, wich means....

can we please stop it allready? my brain gettin numb from all this here fighting, like...i trought this was supposed to be feedback giving place with some disscusion of ideas, not a place to fight each other with nonsense words, a normal community sould not fight each other but sould try to come to an conclusion what the truth is

[Steorra]

32 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

sometimes the truth hurts, i dont care who gets hit by it its simply a fact that the truth can hurt some people, its just a by product of reality of this world, and i wont have it any other way, one could try twist it, but that would create a lie.....and maybe is tried to be sold as a truth....a kind of truth that hurts truth seekers, the actual truth that is not something someone spins and twist it to there own views....it does not matter who dit and dit not do any of that, the fact says

the fruth can and will hurt, and people will start discussing what the real truth is, they will fight for there side, be it truth or the lies, it matters not because no side will actualy agree with the other side, wich means....

can we please stop it allready? my brain gettin numb from all this here fighting, like...i trought this was supposed to be feedback giving place with some disscusion of ideas, not a place to fight each other with nonsense words, a normal community sould not fight each other but sould try to come to an conclusion what the truth is

The truth is for different people we have different truth. People who is lack of education would believe something "wrong" definitely, but some of the "wrong" thing is only "wrong" for other different people.

I.e. someone would think selective facts is fact, but others think selective facts is simple a way of gaslighting.

Someone would think coriander is delicious, but others may think coriander is unbearable. (Decided by some pieces of people's particular gene)

These are different opinions. The truth would never be only one truth. The truth would be various for different people.

[IAmAFurrz]

On 1/24/2025 at 10:38 PM, Yifei_ said:

  

Saying that Abigail can demolish all mobs and hoards is a bit too absolute. A typical example is the Damaged Rook in the Ruins. This thing deals 200 damage and is immune to Scare in Team Spirits, making it quite dangerous for Abigail.

 

the only mob that does this lol, you can manage it by being careful (like, youre in the RUINS, you SHOULD be careful).

and aside from rooks, in the ruins. abi with revenant restorative lets you NOT kite bishops and knights and just come out with barely any dmg taken. Its why you can just wear wraith's wreath in ruins all the time with nightshade on and just let abi do work when there are no rooks around, and then be more careful when there is

[Yifei_]

1 hour ago, IAmAFurrz said:

the only mob that does this lol, you can manage it by being careful (like, youre in the RUINS, you SHOULD be careful).

and aside from rooks, in the ruins. abi with revenant restorative lets you NOT kite bishops and knights and just come out with barely any dmg taken. Its why you can just wear wraith's wreath in ruins all the time with nightshade on and just let abi do work when there are no rooks around, and then be more careful when there is

This is a classic example of shifting the responsibility onto the players. I suggest you read the original post more carefully. According to your description, in the Ruins, all the Rooks will run in the opposite direction of Abigail, and all the Bishops and Knights will completely ignore Wendy's existence.

Oh? You say Abigail was killed by a Rook while clearing the Five Thulecite Statues area? That must be the player's fault. Only a novice player's Abigail would get hit by a Rook. Alright, I'll unsummon Abigail while clearing the Five Thulecite Statues. But then the player gets killed by a Bishop? That must still be the player's fault. It's the player's own inability to dodge the Bishop's ranged attacks.

Shifting the blame to the players for any mistake, without reflecting on the problems in the game design itself, is very irrational behavior.

[YouKnowWho142]

7 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

This is a classic example of shifting the responsibility onto the players. I suggest you read the original post more carefully. According to your description, in the Ruins, all the Rooks will run in the opposite direction of Abigail, and all the Bishops and Knights will completely ignore Wendy's existence.

Oh? You say Abigail was killed by a Rook while clearing the Five Thulecite Statues area? That must be the player's fault. Only a novice player's Abigail would get hit by a Rook. Alright, I'll unsummon Abigail while clearing the Five Thulecite Statues. But then the player gets killed by a Bishop? That must still be the player's fault. It's the player's own inability to dodge the Bishop's ranged attacks.

Shifting the blame to the players for any mistake, without reflecting on the problems in the game design itself, is very irrational behavior.

That sounds like you just shouldn’t be fighting against several clockworks at once, that’s entirely a player issue. Any character would struggle in that situation unless you’re very well equipped and prepared, in which case the point is nullified anyways. That doesn’t really sound like a design mistake, and if it’s a game design issue then can’t that just be fixed by forcing only one clockwork to target players at any given time? That way the player will always be in a balanced combat situation regardless of their own errors

[Yifei_]

3 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

That sounds like you just shouldn’t be fighting against several clockworks at once, that’s entirely a player issue. Any character would struggle in that situation unless you’re very well equipped and prepared, in which case the point is nullified anyways. That doesn’t really sound like a design mistake 

Exactly, I need to be equipped and prepared, so why would I choose to use a Wraith Wreath instead of better armor and Moggles, putting myself at risk? Why would I put in Lunar Tree Blossoms to lower my margin for error? These two game designs go against the idea of being equipped and prepared.

[YouKnowWho142]

7 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Exactly, I need to be equipped and prepared, so why would I choose to use a Wraith Wreath instead of better armor and goggles, putting myself at risk? Why would I put in Lunar Tree Blossoms to lower my margin for error? These two game designs go against the idea of being equipped and prepared.

Then wear the better armor in that situation? You’re not forced to use the wreath at all times and it’s weird that you’re implying that you have to, especially since most of the wreath’s effects are for utility and not combat. The moggles comparison is also strange since you would ideally not be wearing that in combat either. The lunar tree blossoms seem to be meant for bosses so i don’t really understand why you would be slotting them if you know you’re going into the ruins

[Steorra]

10 minutes ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Any character would struggle in that situation unless you’re very well equipped and prepared,

Weremoose, Willow, Maxwell, Wortox, Walter, Webber, Wurt: Hello?

[Yifei_]

1 minute ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

Then wear the better armor in that situation? You’re not forced to use the wreath at all times and it’s weird that you’re implying that you have to, especially since most of the wreath’s effects are for utility and not combat. The lunar tree blossoms seem to be meant for bosses so i don’t really understand why you would be slotting them if you know you’re going into the ruins

Regarding the Lunar Tree Blossoms, players even have to look up when the player tag takes effect. That's why I say the design is problematic. These kinds of issues shouldn't exist in the first place from a design perspective. If you have any further questions, you can reread the main post.

As for the Wraith Wreath, it was the person I was replying to who suggested using it in the Ruins. For me, it has absolutely NO practical value in either utility or combat.

[YouKnowWho142]

Just now, Yifei_ said:

Regarding the Lunar Tree Blossoms, players even have to look up when the player tag takes effect. That's why I say the design is problematic. These kinds of issues shouldn't exist in the first place from a design perspective. If you have any further questions, you can reread the main post.

As for the Wraith Wreath, it was the person I was replying to who suggested using it in the Ruins. For me, it has absolutely NO practical value in either utility or combat.

I never disagreed with the player tag being messy, I personally think it should just be reduced damage from giants instead of a tag.

as far as the wraith wreath goes, it certainly has utility, and although certain aspects of it still need work namely the shield elixirs it is a perfectly fine way to play the game. That’s an opinion on how you use it rather than it being problematic in general, since its applications are generally unproblematic. If you play every character the same way even if they offer different options, that’s on you