Do not shift responsibilty onto the player

[Yifei_]

Just now, YouKnowWho142 said:

I never disagreed with the player tag being messy, I personally think it should just be reduced damage from giants instead of a tag.

as far as the wraith wreath goes, it certainly has utility, and although certain aspects of it still need work namely the shield elixirs it is a perfectly fine way to play the game. That’s an opinion on how you use it rather than it being problematic in general, since its applications are generally unproblematic. If you play every character the same way even if they offer different options, that’s on you

Indeed, how to use it is a matter of each player's own choice and perspective. However, I want to clarify that my opinion that MG II is useless is not because I don't want to try new strategies, but rather because this new strategy actually provides a negative improvement to my gaming experience.

I've tried using MG II in the Ruins myself, and the experience was quite terrible... Of course, the Ruins is just one aspect; I've discussed the other uses in my post.

 

 

[YouKnowWho142]

27 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Indeed, how to use it is a matter of each player's own choice and perspective. However, I want to clarify that my opinion that MG II is useless is not because I don't want to try new strategies, but rather because this new strategy actually provides a negative improvement to my gaming experience.

I've tried using MG II in the Ruins myself, and the experience was quite terrible... Of course, the Ruins is just one aspect; I've discussed the other uses in my post.

 

 

It’s why I mentioned the wreath still needs work in some places. The night vision is fine, and while people won’t agree I think the hp regen ones are fine too (though I wouldn’t mind if people argued they should restore more hp), and I don’t ever like using a beefalo as any sort of excuse because that’s an entirely different way to play the game that already removes the major downsides of several characters for essentially just twigs (hence why, in a similar manner of player choice, I usually play without them and only use them if the character has no other way of moving chess pieces faster)

I was never in agreement with drinkable elixirs from the beginning, but im mostly okay with the direction it’s in now, and I already know I’ll use its effects a fair amount in my wendy runs

I guess just to reiterate, I think it’s strange to blame the game for the player putting a character in a situation that is outside of their specialty. In relation to the main topic (which I dislike the misleading nature of the title), I think that putting a penalty on Abigail in all situations as a downside for making her stronger in one situation is strange, and isn’t really something I agreed with. If they kept the double health then I’d understand, but if it’s damage reduction against bosses only then not only is Abigail weaker outside of bosses but the upside and downside nearly cancel each other out, with the only real upside is Abi surviving burst damage better without healing, but if healing is involved against continuous damage she would likely last roughly the same amount of time in combat

that being said, proper preparedness was always a major aspect of dst, and I don’t think that it’s entirely unreasonable for players to switch the petals in the sisturn to the desired effect prior to a boss encounter. I just don’t feel like this is important to discuss since the issue is the fact that there’s a downside at all, not that it’s an attack on player and game responsibility. Having to refresh petals is a part of player responsibility too and would continue to be present regardless of the argument made in this topic

[IAmAFurrz]

4 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

Oh? You say Abigail was killed by a Rook while clearing the Five Thulecite Statues area? That must be the player's fault. Only a novice player's Abigail would get hit by a Rook. Alright, I'll unsummon Abigail while clearing the Five Thulecite Statues. But then the player gets killed by a Bishop? That must still be the player's fault. It's the player's own inability to dodge the Bishop's ranged attacks.

i wont say rooks doing that much is good but without it, ruins is a complete joke. if it did like 100 the challenge is all gone as revenant restorative will also beat rooks 

and also, its not a hard problem to counter as you can also deal with multi-rook sitiuations by not having abi and letting them hit eachother. the problem is there, but all it takes is a bit of learning of what to do, its why disussing problems you have with others in a community is good cuz you get to learn more ways to play and deal with said problems, and rook doing 200 is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be (its just '1 rook? hold f with abi, 2 rooks? make them hit eachother' which is such basic thinking)

then the bishop, i never said anything about it being easy for anyone else but wendy, as abi's 600 health is unique to her and her only. most characters can not dodge it except wortox and wanda (or anyone with extreme speed boost but that takes forever). i hate it as most characters but wendy makes it a joke as you literally can leave it to abi or hit it a few times, let abi take last hit before bishop shoots so the shot doesnt land on wendy. again, its not hard to do, and completely accessible to everyone who plays the game, doesnt take more than 3 bishops to count how many hits you can get in, and then boom, you learn something really powerful

4 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

Shifting the blame to the players for any mistake, without reflecting on the problems in the game design itself, is very irrational behavior.

and worst of all, only time i see this is when wendy players that i have seen constantly on the forums complain about struggling with basic things and that they want to be able to do harder bosses without even learning to kite/how to manage abi, and like.... thats the whole gimmick of wendy, if they dont want to learn to play then why play her at all?

in conclusion, abi will demolish most mobs that swarm her, ALL with the exception of multiple rooks. there, are you happy now after your tantrum? i merely pointed out that the person cherry picked rooks doing insane dmg as if there are more mobs that do this, and that ruins is basically free if you know what do to in multirook situations but for some reason you had to make it a personal thing to fight the comment i made completely unrelated to 'blaming the player'.

imo if there is some challenge you couldve done that requires not much but situational awareness, thats not really bad design is it? its like saying hunger is bad design because it killed me and i dont want to eat

[Yifei_]

  

9 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

and worst of all, only time i see this is when wendy players that i have seen constantly on the forums complain about struggling with basic things and that they want to be able to do harder bosses without even learning to kite/how to manage abi, and like.... thats the whole gimmick of wendy, if they dont want to learn to play then why play her at all?

in conclusion, abi will demolish most mobs that swarm her, ALL with the exception of multiple rooks. there, are you happy now after your tantrum? i merely pointed out that the person cherry picked rooks doing insane dmg as if there are more mobs that do this, and that ruins is basically free if you know what do to in multirook situations but for some reason you had to make it a personal thing to fight the comment i made completely unrelated to 'blaming the player'.

imo if there is some challenge you couldve done that requires not much but situational awareness, thats not really bad design is it? its like saying hunger is bad design because it killed me and i dont want to eat

What I hate the most is that people attack Wendy players with the excuse that “Wendy players are unwilling to learn or practice.” Let me tell you, I can defeat almost all bosses with the combination of Wendy and Abigail, and this is the result of my practice and learning. I can also tell you that I have played Wendy in Eternal Winter, Eternal Rain, Rift at the start, and have completed the full clear of the Ruins with more damage taken at the beginning.

Whenever Wendy players offer suggestions based on the actual gameplay, some people attack Wendy players indiscriminately with phrases like “You are unwilling to learn” or “You are unwilling to practice.” These almost malicious attacks are extremely annoying.

 

 

[IAmAFurrz]

9 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

  

What I hate the most is that people attack Wendy players with the excuse that “Wendy players are unwilling to learn or practice.” Let me tell you, I can defeat almost all bosses with the combination of Wendy and Abigail, and this is the result of my practice and learning. I can also tell you that I have played Wendy in Eternal Winter, Eternal Rain, Rift at the start, and have completed the full clear of the Ruins with more damage taken at the beginning.

Whenever Wendy players offer suggestions based on the actual gameplay, some people attack Wendy players indiscriminately with phrases like “You are unwilling to learn” or “You are unwilling to practice.” These almost malicious attacks are extremely annoying.

 

 

well then sorry to hear that, i dont really base my opinions on people willing to learn or not (they somehow still argue with 'im new and the game should be made easy for me'). i love game design, and if people just say 'you are unwilling to learn' without a claim to back it up then that is bad. i love chatting with anyone about this game, and especially wendy rn (shout out to @Epireum they're the first wendy player who actually spoke to me sanely )

[DaDa_waw]

18 minutes ago, IAmAFurrz said:

well then sorry to hear that, i dont really base my opinions on people willing to learn or not (they somehow still argue with 'im new and the game should be made easy for me'). i love game design, and if people just say 'you are unwilling to learn' without a claim to back it up then that is bad. i love chatting with anyone about this game, and especially wendy rn (shout out to @Epireum they're the first wendy player who actually spoke to me sanely )

The same sentence spoken in different places has different meanings.
This is not a topic discussing how to teach others how to clean up Ruins, but rather a topic addressing the error feedback pattern that occurred in the Wendy skill tree feedback this time. What you are saying now is one of the typical cases of this theme post.
This post doesn't require you to teach others how to use Wendy, or Wendy without Abigail, or Wes, to complete the task of cleaning up Ruins. The only purpose of what you are saying here now is to hinder a discussion on reasonable feedback.
The ultimate result is to give everyone a meaningless skill tree, without any useful feedback, and without any difference from when there is no skill tree, a low-quality or even ineffective Wendy gameplay update.

[Dingle]

I used to just make sure rooks weren't nearby when killing bishops with abigail.

Night vision makes this really easy. I liked MG II a lot for this.

In the ruins now, Escape makes things even safer for her. It drops aggro on Abby and gives invulnerability. It also doesn't share a cooldown with unsummon. So you can escape -> unsummon.

[Debruh]

8 hours ago, IAmAFurrz said:

wont say rooks doing that much is good but without it, ruins is a complete joke. if it did like 100 the challenge is all gone as revenant restorative will also beat rooks

Who even fights rooks? Just make them destroy all the structures you need, even kill other clockworks with them, and each other, then bait them to get away and collect the loot. That's it. Abigail receiving extra damage from them is only a problem if they jumpscare you. But night vision makes that practically impossible anyways

[gaymime]

 

14 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

This is a classic example of shifting the responsibility onto the players. I suggest you read the original post more carefully. According to your description, in the Ruins, all the Rooks will run in the opposite direction of Abigail, and all the Bishops and Knights will completely ignore Wendy's existence.

Oh? You say Abigail was killed by a Rook while clearing the Five Thulecite Statues area? That must be the player's fault. Only a novice player's Abigail would get hit by a Rook. Alright, I'll unsummon Abigail while clearing the Five Thulecite Statues. But then the player gets killed by a Bishop? That must still be the player's fault. It's the player's own inability to dodge the Bishop's ranged attacks.

Shifting the blame to the players for any mistake, without reflecting on the problems in the game design itself, is very irrational behavior.

.... i play wes. i put down two life amulets off to the side, let myself be killed and haunt the rooks until the bishops(and usually knights) are dead. if i am in a rush i just feed 8-15 bunnymen and have them run behind me while i make wide enough circles not to trigger the bishops' attacks.

 

please consider that your playstyle is not the default and is not a useful strategy for this particular scenario. it does not mean klei has failed you only that you are currently limiting your playstyle and have an opportunity to branch out.

[Yifei_]

1 hour ago, gaymime said:

... i play wes. i put down two life amulets off to the side, let myself be killed and haunt the rooks until the bishops(and usually knights) are dead. if i am in a rush i just feed 8-15 bunnymen and have them run behind me while i make wide enough circles not to trigger the bishops' attacks.

 

please consider that your playstyle is not the default and is not a useful strategy for this particular scenario. it does not mean klei has failed you only that you are currently limiting your playstyle and have an opportunity to branch out.

Continuing to discuss how to clear the ruins has already gone off-topic. But I still want to do some clarifications.
 

Spoiler

The purpose of my response is to refute two points: 1. Rook poses a threat to Abigail; 2. The night vision of MG II is not as good as that of Moggles. I have never limited my own playstyle. The conclusions I've drawn are based on my own experience after trying new methods to clear the ruins. It's not that I'm unwilling to try new things.

I never claimed that my playstyle is the default. However, I can say that my method of clearing the five-statue area is at least effective. I would first use a torch to intimidate the bishop, then work with Rook to kill the bishop as quickly as possible, and then guide the rooks to help me clear the statues. As shown in this video. When I play as Wendy, I would also unsummon Abigail and take the same measures. Sometimes I don't even use a torch; it just means taking a bit more damage.

I would first clear the eight-statue area, which has richer resources and less threat. Then I would prepare the necessary equipment before going to the five-statue area.

It is also very clear from this video that Moggles has a huge advantage over MG II: the ability to switch equipment at any time.

If you prefer to play using bunnyman who dies from a single hit by Rook or sacrifice some inventory slots to carry life-giving amulets, that's your choice, and I won't interfere. How each person plays is a matter of personal style.

 

 

 

[Echsrick]

i feel like this whole thing is off topic

[gaymime]

28 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Continuing to discuss how to clear the ruins has already gone off-topic. But I still want to do some clarifications.
 

  Hide contents

The purpose of my response is to refute two points: 1. Rook poses a threat to Abigail; 2. The night vision of MG II is not as good as that of Moggles. I have never limited my own playstyle. The conclusions I've drawn are based on my own experience after trying new methods to clear the ruins. It's not that I'm unwilling to try new things.

I never claimed that my playstyle is the default. However, I can say that my method of clearing the five-statue area is at least effective. I would first use a torch to intimidate the bishop, then work with Rook to kill the bishop as quickly as possible, and then guide the rooks to help me clear the statues. As shown in this video. When I play as Wendy, I would also unsummon Abigail and take the same measures. Sometimes I don't even use a torch; it just means taking a bit more damage.

I would first clear the eight-statue area, which has richer resources and less threat. Then I would prepare the necessary equipment before going to the five-statue area.

It is also very clear from this video that Moggles has a huge advantage over MG II: the ability to switch equipment at any time.

If you prefer to play using bunnyman who dies from a single hit by Rook or sacrifice some inventory slots to carry life-giving amulets, that's your choice, and I won't interfere. How each person plays is a matter of personal style.

 

 

 

 

 

did you link the wrong video? this is a wes doing as you described with no wendy present at all. using a character that is not wendy to explain something about wendy seems more than a little bit strange.

 

also i fail to understand why you are adamant that the previous playstyle and item combo needs to be shored up when you have a different more-effective option available to you that you say you already use. i cannot understand why klei is the one who has done something wrong when you the player have and (theoretically) do use a strategy that works well and without error. you have provided evidence that the game design is sound enough that it cannot be mistaken for a fault with the programmers but still claim that the programmers are to blame if the user fails to complete a verifiably completable task.

[Yifei_]

2 minutes ago, gaymime said:

did you link the wrong video? this is a wes doing as you described with no wendy present at all. using a character that is not wendy to explain something about wendy seems more than a little bit strange.

 

also i fail to understand why you are adamant that the previous playstyle and item combo needs to be shored up when you have a different more-effective option available to you that you say you already use. i cannot understand why klei is the one who has done something wrong when you the player have and (theoretically) do use a strategy that works well and without error. you have provided evidence that the game design is sound enough that it cannot be mistaken for a fault with the programmers but still claim that the programmers are to blame if the user fails to complete a verifiably completable task.

You were the one who mentioned Wes first. I was actually curious why you brought up Wes in this post, and I continued based on your logic. It seems like you now agree that your initial logic was flawed.

I don't understand the logic in your second paragraph. I was just talking about the strategy for clearing ruins and trying to prove the points I mentioned earlier: “Compared to MG II, Moggles is a better choice” and “There is an issue with the player tag design.” I was simply pointing out these observations. I don't know where you got all this “blame” from.