Collating Direct Implementation of suggestions from the forum in Wendy's skill tree

[Steorra]

And I hope some evidence for proving your opinions.

For my observation Woodie and Wortox's trees are the most popular tree for most people.

10 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Pretty sure that polls decently old, there was some discussion on skill trees recently that had Woodie commonly considered a bit lower.

 

[WenericMember]

Just now, DVGMedia said:

you telling me that 30 seconds of stun is not overkill?

What are you talking about that wasn't available to every survivor?

TBH Wickerbottom was a better pyro character pre skill tree with the fire pen & Pyrokinetics Explained

[Evelo]

Just want to toot my own horn here, but I believe I was the first to suggest using Lune Blossoms and Dark Petals in the Sisturn. For what effects, I didn't give any just that they could be used for some benefit. Which was implemented and I am happy about that.

[WenericMember]

6 minutes ago, Steorra said:

And I hope some evidence for proving your opinions.

For my observation Woodie and Wortox's trees are the most popular tree for most people.

 

His tree is def still one of the more popular ones, but there's quite a few people thinking his tree is "just ok."

I'll admit I forget some comments that called him out positively.

[Yaorin yon]

36 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

On one hand, I kinda get what you're saying. On the other hand, the key mistake you're making with this analogy, is your examples are purely for your own condition.

The funeral and resteraunt, you are the only one the service is being performed for. So you should expect it to be done to your standards. The salesperson and executioner are obliged to give you a service tailored to your needs.

This is a public beta, and Klei is trying to form one path to satisfy thousands of people. Something that would make me happy, would alienate significant portions of the crowd, so it's unreasonable to expect 1:1 implementation of ideas.

I think it's not just 'myself', the current discussion heat is enough to prove this.

I don't understand. Is there any fundamental difference between game developers and restaurants or other service industries? Because they seem more likely to be sworn brothers with players? If the content is satisfactory enough, I do like to call myself a brother. And since it is not satisfactory enough, the fundamental relationship conflict will be exposed.

 

There are indeed problems with implementing ideas in a 1:1 ratio, but they can definitely use their own 0.5 to fill in the 0.5 of the idea, rather than presenting the 0.5 or even 0.1 of the idea to prove that they have followed the idea. I once discussed under a post that it is impossible for design creators to have what they want in their hearts, but it is absolutely possible for design creators to acknowledge sincere content. The actions of the designer prove that at least there has been no "sincere effort to be acknowledged" on Wendy's skill tree, and they are still insisting on making+1-1 modifications to one-sided content to make a distorted skill tree appear reasonable. This is the reason why I am dissatisfied.

 

 

 

[DVGMedia]

2 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

What are you talking about that wasn't available to every survivor?

TBH Wickerbottom was a better pyro character pre skill tree with the fire pen & Pyrokinetics Explained

well with scalemail yeah outside of spring and potentially slightly in spring.  however those were dedicated to only small instances like maybe ruins.
Willows whole thing is that she can stun creatures into death and continue to farm them while being able to safely dismantle anything with 750dmg bursts.
While also having a big bear to pull aggro.
She had so much cc added to her that they pulled players from wendy.  the character thats ment to be great with cc.

[WenericMember]

8 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

I think it's not just 'myself', the current discussion heat is enough to prove this.

I don't understand. Is there any fundamental difference between game developers and restaurants or other service industries? Because they seem more likely to be sworn brothers with players? If the content is satisfactory enough, I do like to call myself a brother. And since it is not satisfactory enough, the fundamental relationship conflict will be exposed.

 

There are indeed problems with implementing ideas in a 1:1 ratio, but they can definitely use their own 0.5 to fill in the 0.5 of the idea, rather than presenting the 0.5 or even 0.1 of the idea to prove that they have followed the idea. I once discussed under a post that it is impossible for design creators to have what they want in their hearts, but it is absolutely possible for design creators to acknowledge sincere content. The actions of the designer prove that at least there has been no "sincere effort to be acknowledged" on Wendy's skill tree, and they are still insisting on making+1-1 modifications to one-sided content to make a distorted skill tree appear reasonable. This is the reason why I am dissatisfied.

I mean, my list does mention a number of 1:1 adaptations.

Haunt Perk, Grave Relocation, Wraiths Wreath were all 1:1.

And personally, the suggestions that seem to be mine I'm fine with, even if they're not 1:1.

~~

There is a lot of heat around the conversation, I'll admit that, but a significant portion of people are still happy with the tree, and It's understandable why Klei wouldn't want to "choose between" people in a way, thus promoting compromise.

The difference is (IMO), you can ask a chef to change ingredients, you can ask the funeral host to set the date. They're your thing, rather than making use of someone elses thing. It's more like asking for a park to be replaced with a Football field. Yes, it may make a lot of people happy, but it would annoy others, so  a compromise needs to be reached.

 

8 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

well with scalemail yeah outside of spring and potentially slightly in spring.  however those were dedicated to only small instances like maybe ruins.
Willows whole thing is that she can stun creatures into death and continue to farm them while being able to safely dismantle anything with 750dmg bursts.
While also having a big bear to pull aggro.
She had so much cc added to her that they pulled players from wendy.  the character thats ment to be great with cc.

That's post skill tree though? idk.

Edit: Oh you're talking about fire immunity.

Yeah I wouldn't describe that as good particularly, as it didn't work on hordes or bosses, just very specific mobs and had a high risk of burning the targets loot drops.

[Steorra]

48 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

There is a lot of heat around the conversation, I'll admit that, but a significant portion of people are still happy with the tree, and It's understandable why Klei wouldn't want to "choose between" people in a way, thus promoting compromise.

I think the argument point is that someone would be enough satisfied when other trees could reach an average level (or other reasons), but some others have an expectation for Wendy's tree as same as what Woodie and Wortox's trees reached.

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I think the argument point is that someone would be enough satisfied when other trees could reach an average level (or other reasons), but some others have an expectation for Wendy's tree as same as what Woodie and Wortox's trees reached.

When you consider that Wendy is the most popular character, then it become more reasonable.

[WenericMember]

13 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I think the argument point is that someone would be enough satisfied when other trees could reach an average level (or other reasons), but some others have an expectation for Wendy's tree as same as what Woodie and Wortox's trees reached.

When you consider that Wendy is the most popular character, then it become more reasonable.

I understand, but I don't agree.

I believe  a character that is the most popular should probably have the most effort put in to the tree. And I'd argue Wendy's tree does that. There's a bunch of easter eggs, strong skill synergy, a bunch of new assets and probably the most unique items in a tree, new skins for sisturn (according to datamines), etc.

However, I don't think it should be the strongest. Maxwell is agreed to be the strongest character in the game right? If hypothetically, he was the most popular in the game, should he have a skill tree as strong as Willows or Woodies? I'd argue not. His tree should add to his strength such that he's on par with other survivors post tree. I think, personally, Wendy's around that state. People are feel to disagree.

I think the real reason Wendy's controversial is twofold. Firstly, she's on the borderline of viability pre skill tree. Weaker characters than her got a fully equipped skill tree, but hers is slightly weaker. I think Wigfrid's in a similar cammp. But more importantly, is that we don't know how they'll handle stronger character's skill trees. I think it's likely pretty much all of the remaining survivors will get a weaker tree than Wendy, but since we don't know that yet, we can only judge in a vacuum.

 

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

However, I don't think it should be the strongest.

The argument goes different ways here. It's never about the strong or balance issues. It's about "function level".

I know this might be a bit confused. 

An explanation I could give is - both Woodie and Wortox trees are not "strongest", nor did Woodie and Wortox themselves. But there trees give a good answer about what a good skill tree should be like.

[Yaorin yon]

16 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I understand, but I don't agree.

I believe  a character that is the most popular should probably have the most effort put in to the tree. And I'd argue Wendy's tree does that. There's a bunch of easter eggs, strong skill synergy, a bunch of new assets and probably the most unique items in a tree, new skins for sisturn (according to datamines), etc.

However, I don't think it should be the strongest. Maxwell is agreed to be the strongest character in the game right? If hypothetically, he was the most popular in the game,should he have a skill tree as strong as Willows or Woodies?I'd argue not. His tree should add to his strength such that he's on par with other survivors post tree. I think, personally, Wendy's around that state. People are feel to disagree.

I think the real reason Wendy's controversial is twofold. Firstly, she's on the borderline of viability pre skill tree. Weaker characters than her got a fully equipped skill tree, but hers is slightly weaker. I think Wigfrid's in a similar cammp. But more importantly, is that we don't know how they'll handle stronger character's skill trees. I think it's likely pretty much all of the remaining survivors will get a weaker tree than Wendy, but since we don't know that yet, we can only judge in a vacuum.

 

I don't know if you missed my previous reply, but I would like to reiterate my opinion on a 'good skill tree' here. A good skill tree does not necessarily mean the OP value. A good skill tree is like the things you can see in your life, such as magnificent scenery, classic songs, and even fresh air. You may feel that 'this is not actually what I want the most', but you will definitely agree that 'it's beautiful/thoughtful/it's a good thing'. But now Wendy's skill tree is not only 'not what I want', but also makes people feel 'ugly/insincere/boring things'. This can be felt in stark contrast through the skill trees of characters such as Vortex and Winona. I hope KLei can come up with a skill tree that is a collection of surprising ideas, rather than being obsessed with endless carving on decaying wood. This is like arrogance, refusing to admit the shortcomings of one's own work from the beginning, attempting to satisfy players only by modifying numerical values, etc. This behavior is destined to be despised by people.

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

The argument goes different ways here. It's never about the strong or balance issues. It's about "function level".

I know this might be a bit confused. 

An explanation I could give is - both Woodie and Wortox trees are not "strongest", nor did Woodie and Wortox themselves. But there trees give a good answer about what a good skill tree should be like.

We're talking about two different groups of people.

There were threads saying "Abigail should be literally immortal" which is absolutely about balance.

Threads discussing which implementation of Blessed sisturn 3 is best are about function level.

I'm largely talking about the balance when I'm discussing pleasing everyone. I've also advocated for a lot of QOL and implementation improvements - I agree that Blessed Sisturn 3 can be further improved!

Either way, that's not really what this thread is about. It's about rebuttals to comments like these:

"Yet you completely ignored them" is a factually incorrect statement.

[Yaorin yon]

A comparison that proves KLei's lack of sincerity in adopting suggestions is sufficient. Anyone who has seen what they have made will not let this kind of thing come to the test server for players to see.

Player made/KLei 'adopted'

[WenericMember]

9 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

I don't know if you missed my previous reply, but I would like to reiterate my opinion on a 'good skill tree' here. A good skill tree does not necessarily mean the OP value. A good skill tree is like the things you can see in your life, such as magnificent scenery, classic songs, and even fresh air. You may feel that 'this is not actually what I want the most', but you will definitely agree that 'it's beautiful/thoughtful/it's a good thing'. But now Wendy's skill tree is not only 'not what I want', but also makes people feel 'ugly/insincere/boring things'. This can be felt in stark contrast through the skill trees of characters such as Vortex and Winona. I hope KLei can come up with a skill tree that is a collection of surprising ideas, rather than being obsessed with endless carving on decaying wood. This is like arrogance, refusing to admit the shortcomings of one's own work from the beginning, attempting to satisfy players only by modifying numerical values, etc. This behavior is destined to be despised by people.

There's 2 options for Wendy's skill tree design (and any future character).

Either don't give Wendy any strong abilities and make her tree incredibly simple (to preserve balance) or give her strong, conditional abilities that affect gameplay sometimes.

Wendy's skill tree is conditional because if it wasn't it'd have to be undertuned to the point of being obsolete.

7 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

A comparison that proves KLei's lack of sincerity in adopting suggestions is sufficient. Anyone who has seen what they have made will not let this kind of thing come to the test server for players to see.

玩家自制的与KLei“采纳”的

The reason this comparison doesn't work is... yes that abigail suggestion has an idle.

Now give that abigail

• An aggro animation
• A unique idle
• An attack animation
• A dash animation
• An escape animation
• A scare Animation
• A shadow Form
• A gesalt form
• A summon/Unsummon animation
• A variation for every Skin

And as a ghost, they can't reuse animations from other survivors

That amount of work is completely unreasonable for a small section of a beta, even for Wendy.

 

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

There were threads saying "Abigail should be literally immortal" which is absolutely about balance

No, not exactly.

Yes you may say that some features people want would influence the balance, but that would not means those people only want a "strong" result.

As I said many times before, I'm glad to see a completely removing of Ghastly elixir for buffing Abi's survivability if it's needed. If to build an example here, it's more like to say "if you think to make Abi's survivability to satisfy more casual players would do bad impact to balance, you may go nerf others which were lesser important for the whole function level of the tree. And in my opinions, these "lesser important" things could be DPS of Wendy, Ghastly Elixir, and so on. 

People would be reluctant to point out the logic I mentioned above because the current tree is far away from what they imagined. And it's easy to understand the ideas like "if the tree destined to be worse as current stage, I prefer at least it's a strong tree" don't we?

13 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I'm largely talking about the balance when I'm discussing pleasing everyone.

And this is a point I completely disagree.

Most people cares about function level of trees but not balance issue. The game should be fun first with necessary flavours and functions, the balance might be concerned but should be later. That's what the problem of the current Wendy's tree.

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

No, not exactly.

Yes you may say that some features people want would influence the balance, but that would not means those people only want a "strong" result.

As I said many times before, I'm glad to see a completely removing of Ghastly elixir for buffing Abi's survivability if it's needed. If to build an example here, it's more like to say "if you think to make Abi's survivability to satisfy more casual players would do bad impact to balance, you may go nerf others which were lesser important for the whole function level of the tree. And in my opinions, these "lesser important" things could be DPS of Wendy, Ghastly Elixir, and so on. 

People would be reluctant to point out the logic I mentioned above because the current tree is far away from what they imagined. And it's easy to understand the ideas like "if the tree destined to be worse as current stage, I prefer at least it's a strong tree" don't we?

I'm not talking about you, but other people are talking about about balance. There were many, many threads discussing balance and saying abigail was a weak/strong/whatever character If you don't want to acknowledge that, then this conversation will go nowhere.

That's the exact problem. "if the tree destined to be worse as current stage, I prefer at least it's a strong tree" is a reductive take. It alienates the half of people that are fine with the core tree but want it to remain balanced. By giving up on highlighting core issues, you abandon whatever grounds you have to suggest change.

[Steorra]

14 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

A comparison that proves KLei's lack of sincerity in adopting suggestions is sufficient. Anyone who has seen what they have made will not let this kind of thing come to the test server for players to see.

Player made/KLei 'adopted'

I personally think what the direction Abi's aesthetic goes is on a right way. The point is it's still rough and lack of more detailed improvements.

And it's might be a fatal issue if the aesthetic changes of skill tree would limit the function level of it.

"Abi become more closer to humanity realm" could be good and touching, but to give a bad adjustment for Sisturn III by this reason would be unwelcomed. 

[Yaorin yon]

11 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

There's 2 options for Wendy's skill tree design (and any future character).

Either don't give Wendy any strong abilities and make her tree incredibly simple (to preserve balance) or give her strong, conditional abilities that affect gameplay sometimes.

Wendy's skill tree is conditional because if it wasn't it'd have to be undertuned to the point of being obsolete.

The reason this comparison doesn't work is... yes that abigail suggestion has an idle. reason this comparison doesn't work is... yes that abigail suggestion has an idle.

Now give that abigail

• An aggro animation
• A unique idle
• An attack animation
• A dash animation
• An escape animation
• A scare Animation
• A shadow Form
• A gesalt form
• A summon/Unsummon animation
• A variation for every Skin

And as a ghost, they can't reuse animations from other survivors from other survivors

That amount of work is completely unreasonable for a small section of a beta, even for Wendy. for a small section of a beta, even for Wendy.

 

However, what I want to express is that even a small idle animation cannot be done well by KLei, far inferior to what a player can do on their own.

How can this satisfy people?

By the way, Bernie has provided everything you need regarding the 'difficulties' you mentioned. And I find it difficult to understand the meaning of 'maintenance vendors should do less work to satisfy players'. We have been waiting for almost 5-6 months, and I really think this is unacceptable. We don't need to find excuses for KLei's low work efficiency, do we?

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

It alienates the half of people that are fine with the core tree but want it to remain balanced. By giving up on highlighting core issues, you abandon whatever grounds you have to suggest change.

Wolfgang have a strong tree but we already know how his tree is unpopular for people by many threads of GD.

Yes I'm sure that there's some people feels fine with current Wendy's tree in functional aspect, but I don't think they are majority.

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

However, what I want to express is that even a small idle animation cannot be done well by KLei, far inferior to what a player can do on their own.

How can this satisfy people?

By the way, Bernie has provided everything you need regarding the 'difficulties' you mentioned. And I find it difficult to understand the meaning of 'maintenance vendors should do less work to satisfy players'. We have been waiting for almost 5-6 months, and I really think this is unacceptable. We don't need to find excuses for KLei's low work efficiency, do we?

I prefer Klei's animation to the fan made one.

Except Bernie uses the same animation rig. Bernie's body shape and limbs remain constant across skins and alignments. It's the same reason every survivor shares a lot of idle animations. I'll try to find the animation concepts.

[Yaorin yon]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I prefer Klei's animation to the fan made one.

Except Bernie uses the same animation rig. Bernie's body shape and limbs remain constant across skins and alignments. It's the same reason every survivor shares a lot of idle animations. I'll try to find the animation concepts.

Uh, I hope you've noticed that those 'stiff flashes' are works of KLei. I like this action, but I have no tolerance for this kind of 'flicker'. This is a work that has been working for 3 weeks, and the production team only needs to open the game once to discover the error, but it is now in front of us.

[WenericMember]

Ok so afaik: Most animations these days use a "rig" which is a set of individual moving parts that can be moved. While the models can be exchanged, usually the rigs are constant between animations, as long as the body shape is maintained.

 

All the survivors and Bernies have the exact same rig - 2 arms, 2 legs, torso head, and therefore they can reuse the animations between survivors. This is different as Abigail does not preserve a body shape between her human and ghost forms. As such, animations cannot be reused.

A good example is wolfgang, who sheds basically all his shirts that aren't made for him while mighty, because his body shape changes iirc.

2 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

Uh, I hope you've noticed that those 'stiff flashes' are works of KLei. I like this action, but I have no tolerance for this kind of 'flicker'. This is a work that has been working for 3 weeks and can be discovered with just one game opening, but it's right in front of us now.

Yeah, i noticed, and I like it. It shows that even with the power of Lunar petals, Abigail struggles to maintain her human shape for any period of time.

[Yaorin yon]

9 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Yeah, i noticed, and I like it. It shows that even with the power of Lunar petals, Abigail struggles to maintain her human shape for any period of time.

Um If you insist, then I have nothing to say. I still look forward to a smoother effect, not so rigid. To me now, it seems more like an animation error bug, which is vastly different from previous animations such as Armored Bear/Ice Giant Deer.

[Steorra]

15 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Yeah, i noticed, and I like it. It shows that even with the power of Lunar petals, Abigail struggles to maintain her human shape for any period of time.

Ehh.. i was never noticed it and simply thought it was a glitch of screenshots. If that's the effect of current aesthetics of Abi, I would say no to it...

It's went a bit far on showing how rough the work is. More like how the appearance Shadow Abi has from the beginning.

 

Though, I personally still could understand that it might be just a concept pre-show for beta version.

9 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

To me now, it seems more like an animation error bug

Yes I shared similar feelings with you. I was thought it was just an animation bug of the screenshot, never imagined that was a thing in current beta version.

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, Yaorin yon said:

Um If you insist, then I have nothing to say. I still look forward to a smoother effect, not so rigid. To me now, it seems more like an animation error bug, which is vastly different from previous animations such as Armored Bear/Ice Giant Deer.

That's fair enough, maybe you could make a post with more detailed suggestions on how you'd improve the idle animation? After all, shadow Abigail got a slick new aesthetic this update too. Making constructive and reasonable suggestions is more condusive to success than calling the dev's work a mockery.

But keep in mind that the mutated mobs were like... 99% of Host of Horrors, so expecting them to be on par with that is a bit much. This is one skill, of one characters tree, in an update with 3 trees.

I think something like most survivors unique idle animations would be more reasonable