DST Gameplay progression needs to be looked at urgently.

[Swiyss]

Introduction.

I've been playing this game for a long time now, and I just realised how some things are weirdly out of place or in need of a fix. But those things are very specific issues that revolves around creating a new world and playing the game fully. The way the game progresses needs to be looked at the same way we looked at people trying to learn the game with a wiki (with the addition of the scrapbook). I believe that this year, we should take a look at the progression side of the game, and how people creating a new world will have any idea of how to unlock the end game. Also, skill trees should take a closer resemblance of a tool to help achieve late game instead of being a super combat tool to make character overpowered. Some of the ways of advancing in the game are too hidden behind the fact that we're either tired trying to survive or focusing or side-quests like farming and fishing. We gotta direct the players in a subtle but consistent way.

W.A.R.B.I.S armor should be balanced.

If we pair the W.A.R.B.I.S armor with the Dark Sword, it's greater than using a thulecite crown + thulecite suit, as it gives movespeed alongside 20% increased damage; It is also better than the dreadstone armor.

However if we pair the W.A.R.B.I.S armor with the brightshade sword or the void reaper, it is worse for damage AND protection against every creature in the game being it shadow/lunar or not; for the brightshade armor grants spike damage and the void armor removes sanity auras.

The problem.

}This is all calculated NOT taking in consideration the cost of making these equipments, and that's where it all makes 0 sense.

I can get a dreadstone full set after fighting a day 1 enemy, that requires only a pickaxe/axe and some sanity managment + possibly green gems for crafting the full set. And it will grant me Further protection against every shadow aligned creature (+20%, so if I take 50 damage from a nightmare creature, it will reduce it by 90%(50 - 45 = 5) and then another 20%(20% of 5 = 2), so 3 damage is taken if both armors are equipped) and similar planar protection (5+5 with full set).

But the W.A.R.B.I.S equipment requires me to do the whole quest for the celestial champion, kill it, then kill it again and deconstruct a second crown, to then wait some days until the setpiece will spawn at the junkyard, or farm for the Scrappy Werepig constantly for a mere chance of getting the blueprints.

Then I'll craft this armor which is worse than the brightshade gear, and only slightly better than other mid-tier ones, and that I'll probably only use it if I decide to NOT open rifts (extremely niche) or in this very small window between waiting for rifts and farming for blueprints from scrappy werepig.

So, is the W.A.R.B.I.S equipment great? Yes. But the worse options are 10x cheaper, and the better options are 95% of the way done by the time I get to use it.

My suggestion.

So unless they make it a guaranteed blueprint drop from scrappy werepig before even opening rifts AND remove the enlightened shards from it, the item will still be skipped and considered trash. This suggestion would also make using the W.O.B.O.T before rifts possible without having to constantly wait 30 something days for both werepigs to respawn. And also... locking this behind killing the underground Nightmare Werepig in the first place makes 0 sense, I'll just use the dreadstone armor if I have to kill him anyways since I can regenerate it AND it has better regular damage protection than the W.A.R.B.I.S itself... like what?

We should add something else to that Abandoned Junk setpiece that we get after killing the 3 Zombified Bosses, remove the enlightened shards from W.A.R.B.I.S gear and make it drop from Scrappy Werepig as a guaranteed drop alongside with the scrappy repair kit, making W.O.B.O.T possible to use before rifts.

The Thulecite problem

Introduction.

I know that the Dreadstone amor and the W.A.R.B.I.S armor make the Thulecite gear useless. Heck, the Dreadstone armor already does that, and you can multiply it with green gems for a multiplayer experience (???).

But if we lock the Dreadstone armor behind rifts too, not only a lot of people will be pissed, but that 95% of progression done to achieve Brightshade and Void gear window problem will still exist.

Possible Developing fix.

We gotta either tune the W.A.R.B.I.S down to Dreadstone level and fix the issue of Thulecite gear being left out of the picture (and also account for all the other weapons we got early in the game, like the Hambat, Dark Sword and Spears), or make it harder and longer to achieve Brightshade and Void gear, forcing the player to use W.A.R.B.I.S and Dreadstone gear to fight against the Inkblight Trio + Rictus and the 3 Zombiefied lunar bosses.

My in-game strategy solution for the Thulecite and W.A.R.B.I.S problem.

Spoiler

I made a world where I played as Wes recently, and to my surprise, after some calculations, I discovered that Wes can output a LOT more damage with less uses with the planar weapons than other characters. I decided to then use a very weird progression cycle similar to locking regions in Elden Ring, and to my surprise, I had way more fun playing the game like this.

Step 1.

I took my time and used 1 axe for damage, then 2 spears until I made a hambat, I also used only hambats and pig skins until I had cleared enough spiders and pigs in the world, as well as fought some bosses. These first 3 weapons were very primal and made the game feel kinda hard, specially with 0.75 damage.

Step 2.

I then went to the next stage of progresssion and killed the Eye of Terror for the renewable hat, and dove into magic for dark swords instead of hambats. I played basically 100 days like this.

Step 3.

Only after acquiring enough resources, I did a ruins clear and crafted more than 10 pickaxe/axes since Wes does regular mining and chopping with those. I also cleared the Archives and gathered lots of thulecite. I made ~20 crowns and suits and got up. I procceded to farm dragonfly, bee queen and Klaus until I had used most of it, while simultaneously gathering moon glass for making statues at the moon stone for the event and for future Glass axes and cutters.

Step 4.

Mind you, I had NOT used all thulecite gear I had, even after killing those bosses constantly in a period of more 150 days. I finally decided to switch to using glass cutters and glass axes instead of the ruins axe. I farmed wood, made a little home etc.. Played like normal, with some decorations and stuff. I also decided to kill the Werepig and switched from thulecite gear to the Dreadstone one, I only killed him once, and the armor never broke or expired. I currently have 1 chest full of nightmare fuel due to the constant fighting (which is a breeze, taking 2 damage).

Step 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 and 10.

I had not dwelve into the next 6 steps I wanna take, but they should be to either kill the Celestial Champion first with Dark Swords + Thulecite gear and use Glass cutters + Thulecite gear and Bee queen gear for Ancient Fuelweaver (Step 5 and 6, I have no idea which one Imma do first). Then I'm also willing to either kill Brightshades AND the 3 zombified bosses with Dark Swords and W.A.R.B.I.S or to kill the Ink Blights with Glass Cutters and Dreadstone gear (Step 7 and 8, whichever comes first).

Step 9 and 10 is to change from mid-tier gear (W.A.R.B.I.S and Dreadstone) to end-gear (Brightshade and Void gear).

I'm glad to play like this as it is way more interesting and it makes the gameplay feel so so so much better. Moving from hambats to darkswords was so satisfying, and finally being able to use dreadstone was relieving in itself. The progression feels much more rewarding, similar to terraria. Also, I've been killing the zombie bosses and Inkblights without end-game gear for a while now in other worlds, and I have to admit that it is by far the hardest boss fights in the entire game.

*Heres me wishing the game would progress like this, pleeease Klei fix your combat progression*

The skill tree problem

My reasoning.

Right now, some skill trees will literally allow the player to use very overpowered features before even opening rifts or even picking a single twig from the ground. Sure, we have to basically kill the Celestial Champion and Ancient Fuelweaver to unlock the stronger ones, but nonetheless, they are acquired at day 1. You don't see games where for 10 years, we had a subtle and neat progression cycle, for then to randomly get super overpowered features that remove completely the survival aspects of the game that we had before. Really, these skill tree additions DO NOT MAKE SENSE.

Furthermore, a reason to add planar damage was to balance Wes damage vs Wolfgang/Wanda damage, as well as make the current gameplay before rifts not too easy after opening them. For them to completely ignore this progression cycle that they had fixed by adding day 1 kamehameha on Willow, which was a character that had no interest being so randomly strong with a skill tree, but so annoyingly weak without one. If we're going to put these behind skills, then atleast make so they are balanced. We have Wormwood getting a great and steady progression with his Brightshade husk, to then completely ignore it on other characters like Wigfrid, who has one of the worst designed skil trees yet.

If we're going to add these things, then please, I urge you KLEI to make half of Willows skill tree an actual built-in character trait, and then put some of the features behind a skill tree, and then expand the tree too accomodate more fiery traits and more actual 2-sided feature like Wormwood and Wortox.

Other trees that need to be looked at again are Wigfrid, Wilson and Wolfgang imo. Since they are basically buffs or random skills that just buff the character and are not 2sided. The idea of having 2 Wolfgangs in the same world with different traits here are almost nonexistent, the ONLY differences might possibly be to choose Shadow or Lunar, but those 2 are structural differences that are already set up from the start at the skill tree design itself.

Possible Developing fixes. (My suggestion)

I think that, making some of these skills actual Kit-based features and other ones only unlockable/upgradable after unlocking rifts or interactions inside the constant would not only slighly fix this progression issue, but also make it so it is more rewarding to use these features. I believe that we should not IGNORE the fact that Planar mechanic was added to the game, and the skill trees are currently doing just that.

Spoiler

Make it so Willow will have her embers and 2 fire-skills without having to purchase any skills in the tree. Then make the Shadow and Lunar one (They'll still be skill in the tree) not available at day 1, but upgradable, something similar to what you guys did with Wendy, where you have to upgrade her in a Moon Dial, but make something unique for Willow. 

For Wolfgang, we desperately need 2 sides in his skill tree, something to make up for the fact that 50% of his tree is just levels upon levels, with nothing much to be added.

Mix Wigfrid into a special Beefalo side vs Alone fighting in the ground  Side where she can choose to either get the buffed items (we can cut a whole lot of lvl 1, lvl 2 and lvl 3 filler skills) or a special (way more interesting) beefalo side where she can buff not only herself, but others too.

Conclusion:

I believe that these are basically functional and contradicting problems, there is no denial in the fact that the game right now had a bunch of problems with the release of lots of features at the same time. With character skill trees making it even harder to balance it out. 

I think that if the develeopers of this game take this in consideration, the game will naturally feel better and more enjoyable to play. A way to fight Zombie Bosses and Ink Blights with W.A.R.B.I.S and Dreadstone Gear respectfully would ensure that we actually enjoy the progression cycle, and add yet another "skippable" cycle for veteran and knowledgable players to achieve similar to what we currently have for the ruins and the "rushing it" strategy.
 

***VERY IMPORTANT***

I'm willing to debate, adjust, and alter EVERY SINGLE THING I mentioned here. This topic does NOT have perfect solutions and I'm NOT saying that every single little thing I mentioned here is the end. Please just give me insight and help me evaluate these current problems, and also some fixes that we might need to do for the game.

TLDR: W.A.R.B.I.S is badly placed and Dreadstone gear destroys the thulecite balance and skill trees are not tied to the main idea of progression in this game nor tied to any princicple that we had before releasing these rifts into the constant.

[Evelo]

Because.

(Oh you changed the original topic. Need to actually re-read this now)

[Swiyss]

If you care about the game, you'll read everything in this topic and give your opinion about it. This is very important for current development of the game. More than some of you might actually believe.

[EctoPlaza]

If Klei actually does something about the skilltrees they'll either a) wait until everyone has a skilltree before starting yet another round of reworks for them, or b) be convinced enough to postpone the remaining skilltrees now and rework the current ones before moving on so that a definitive standard is made going forward; option B may be less likely, but they did delay an update right before the holidays, so you never really know. 

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, EctoPlaza said:

If Klei actually does something about the skilltrees they'll either a) wait until everyone has a skilltree before starting yet another round of reworks for them, or b) be convinced enough to postpone the remaining skilltrees now and rework the current ones before moving on so that a definitive standard is made going forward; option B may be less likely, but they did delay an update right before the holidays, so you never really know. 

Yeah, that's true. But maybe options A is better, since more time will pass and more people will realise in-game specific problems. Similar to what Wilson players are doing with his skill tree right now, which was only possible due to a long time of playing and testing and figuring out what was the best option.

They did made some changes in wormwood's skill tree, but I believe that every single skill tree needs atleast some principles to work around with for now, so option B is very much something that should be looked at as well.

[Mike23Ua]

See the thing is that a lot of the content your discussing I’ve never actually played around with, and more importantly I’ve never seen anyone else playing around with either, now maybe I don’t play the game often enough or with other players long enough to give a solid validation that this is a common experience within the game.

But what I can say is that from my own gameplay (and observation of other random players who join my world or I join theirs) that usually a lot of this content just never sees the light of day in a Typical Gameplay Session.

This can be due to several factors really, but on Xbox we don’t have Klei official servers, all servers that exist at any given time, are exclusively hosted by a player.. and because of that-

Worlds only exist for as long as the host is around to host it. When that host leaves this boots all players out the lobby to find a new random hosted world to join, or for them to host their own.

So before turning this into a TL:DR- any super late game content rarely if ever at all, gets seen or played with.

I think the game should ACTUALLY be balanced almost entirely around the early game, stuff you can do and have fun doing in less than 30 minutes time, because…. From my experience with Xbox Live worlds- They only last a few hours then the host leaves (and most the time you never see that same world ever again..)

So Klei should add more stuff like the LUNAR ISLAND where I can plop down a boat sail out to sea, explore a new biome filled with resources and mobs to quickly craft useful weapons and armors etc with.

Why do you think Skill trees are so widely accepted by most players? It’s because it’s content they unlock ONCE and then have almost instant access too, content they can enjoy in a typical 20 to 60 minute play session.

[Yifei_]

For the W.A.R.B.I.S armor, I generally treat it as a "toy" because its practicality and cost-effectiveness are really poor. It requires Enlightened Shards? And you also have to find the blueprints? And with only 85% physical defense and 5 points of planar defense, it doesn't justify its cost, and the set effect is quite mediocre.

As for the Dreadstone Helmet and Thulecite Crown, I think their balance is decent. The Dreadstone Helmet has the advantage of 10% additional shadow affinity damage reduction, extra planar defense, and durability regeneration. The Thulecite Crown is slightly cheaper, doesn’t significantly affect the character's sanity, and its invincibility shield is highly practical. I usually choose to use the Dreadstone Helmet for regular gameplay and the Thulecite Crown for boss fights (For example, using the Dreadstone Helmet to defeat the Celestial Champion feels a bit excessive). If we're talking about balance issues, I think the Thulecite Armor and the Orange Amulet may have some balance problems, but this isn’t a big issue.

As for the skill tree, I largely agree with your point. Being able to max out 15 skill points on the first day feels like it’s designed for speedruns rather than long-term play.

[Swiyss]

2 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

See the thing is that a lot of the content your discussing I’ve never actually played around with, and more importantly I’ve never seen anyone else playing around with either, now maybe I don’t play the game often enough or with other players long enough to give a solid validation that this is a common experience within the game.

But what I can say is that from my own gameplay (and observation of other random players who join my world or I join theirs) that usually a lot of this content just never sees the light of day in a Typical Gameplay Session.

This can be due to several factors really, but on Xbox we don’t have Klei official servers, all servers that exist at any given time, are exclusively hosted by a player.. and because of that-

Worlds only exist for as long as the host is around to host it. When that host leaves this boots all players out the lobby to find a new random hosted world to join, or for them to host their own.

So before turning this into a TL:DR- any super late game content rarely if ever at all, gets seen or played with.

I think the game should ACTUALLY be balanced almost entirely around the early game, stuff you can do and have fun doing in less than 30 minutes time, because…. From my experience with Xbox Live worlds- They only last a few hours then the host leaves (and most the time you never see that same world ever again..)

So Klei should add more stuff like the LUNAR ISLAND where I can plop down a boat sail out to sea, explore a new biome filled with resources and mobs to quickly craft useful weapons and armors etc with.

Why do you think Skill trees are so widely accepted by most players? It’s because it’s content they unlock ONCE and then have almost instant access too, content they can enjoy in a typical 20 to 60 minute play session.

Dude, yeah. But in public servers, in PC atleast, if there's atleast 2 people who want it, the world will have both rifts opened by day 100 or something, that's like a whole day playing the game. And most of these people enjoy progressing the game fast, and I also do too.

I know that in a regualr session of dst, you may never even get close to experience Rifts and stuff like that, specially in console because of how hard it is to play with a controller. But I think you gotta be greatfull for even being able to play with one to begin with for how HARD it is to balance all of the commands that we need to do and also manage inventory. It's like minecraft but way harder to survive.

And because of that, I believe that it is not entirely away from what you might expect it to be.

Trust me when I say this mike, this game is more about knowing what to do than actually mechanically controlling your character perfectly.

And also, I think that when we actually finish these new End-Game features and refine them, then you'll understand how important the END GAME affects the EARLY GAME.

For starters, making thulecite gear locked behind a very far place into the ruins, with monsters and a special nightmare phase attached to it was already considered to be a late game feature before they added the 2 big bosses. Then, when rifts were added, they wanted to make to Charlie and Wagstaff were the main protagonists of these 2 sides, so because of that, the creation of the 2 mid-tier kits were added, the warbis and the dreadstone. Right now they are weirdly placed, since they're slightly better than thulecite, but a bit worse than brightshade and void gear. We also got glass cutters and dark swords in the middle, which are both great options. This is all mixed in with skill trees that make players not even use weapons anymore lol.

If all of this is fixed, do you not realise that getting into the "early game", and then "mid game", and then "post mid-game" and finally "end game" would make people more inclined to play the game for longer (like terraria), and to not make worlds seem just like a quick session, but more of a united one-time experience with friends every once in a while. And a never ending one for those who want to keep playing on their own. With end game options like multiple optional bosses, megabasing and just an insane amount of side-quested content to explore.

9 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

For the W.A.R.B.I.S armor, I generally treat it as a "toy" because its practicality and cost-effectiveness are really poor. It requires Enlightened Shards? And you also have to find the blueprints? And with only 85% physical defense and 5 points of planar defense, it doesn't justify its cost, and the set effect is quite mediocre.

As for the Dreadstone Helmet and Thulecite Crown, I think their balance is decent. The Dreadstone Helmet has the advantage of 10% additional shadow affinity damage reduction, extra planar defense, and durability regeneration. The Thulecite Crown is slightly cheaper, doesn’t significantly affect the character's sanity, and its invincibility shield is highly practical. I usually choose to use the Dreadstone Helmet for regular gameplay and the Thulecite Crown for boss fights (For example, using the Dreadstone Helmet to defeat the Celestial Champion feels a bit excessive). If we're talking about balance issues, I think the Thulecite Armor and the Orange Amulet may have some balance problems, but this isn’t a big issue.

As for the skill tree, I largely agree with your point. Being able to max out 15 skill points on the first day feels like it’s designed for speedruns rather than long-term play.

Yeah so, basically I do that exact thing too. 

The thing which I think might be the intended way to play, is for dreadstone to be this sorta of armor that introduces you into the planar world very early on, making enemies not deal AS MUCH, but still a lot of damage to you.

The problem with that is that the window between entering cave rifts content and aquiring void gear is basically 5 days in-game lol. You have actual 5 days of the Dreadstone gear being used as it is supposed to.

And the warbis costing that much, being locked after rifts AND also being on that 5 day window just make it so people will use it wrongly, like we are doing right now.

The intended way to play should be for dreadstone armor and warbis armor to be used to kill brightshades, ink blights and the zombie bosses. And then only after that, and some research, we should be able to use high-end gear.

The other intended way, is for dreadstone and warbis gear to be placed slightly above thulecite gear, but also being situational (like you won't be able to use warbis on a spider for example), and then these items would be ignored once the rifts are opened.

It should be either one of these ways, but it is none.

Either one of the sides should be faced with regular gear.

If you open cave rifts first, then you'll be able to kill brightshades and the 3 zombie bosses with void gear and vice-versa.

But then dreadstone and warbis won't be placed anywhere. Like, they currently have no place to be. One is just constantly used and it makes football helmets, warrior helm, woodie helmet and eye mask just completely useless from the moment you get it.

It's like if in terraria, you could rush the sharkpick and collect hellstone, to then completely ignore the metals, as well as any armor that was in the game, and they FORCED you to go through that route by nerfing the shark pick. Sure it takes longer now, but the progression cycle of the game feels so much better.

So I think that Klei shouldn't be scared to actually nerf some items and buff others to correctly put them in their progression cycle place for them. And if it takes long to achieve end-game, It is not A COMBAT PROBLEM, but an actual PROGRESSION PROBLEM which is another topic on it's own. It was something that I suggested a long time ago, that skill trees should not focus too much into combat, but rather in ways of achieving late game quicker, but inside the progression barrier. Like, that's not even that hard to realise, you just gotta play the whole entire game once or twice and you can see the flaws.

[Uedo]

34 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

See the thing is that a lot of the content your discussing I’ve never actually played around with, and more importantly I’ve never seen anyone else playing around with either, now maybe I don’t play the game often enough or with other players long enough to give a solid validation that this is a common experience within the game.

But what I can say is that from my own gameplay (and observation of other random players who join my world or I join theirs) that usually a lot of this content just never sees the light of day in a Typical Gameplay Session.

This can be due to several factors really, but on Xbox we don’t have Klei official servers, all servers that exist at any given time, are exclusively hosted by a player.. and because of that-

Worlds only exist for as long as the host is around to host it. When that host leaves this boots all players out the lobby to find a new random hosted world to join, or for them to host their own.

So before turning this into a TL:DR- any super late game content rarely if ever at all, gets seen or played with.

I think the game should ACTUALLY be balanced almost entirely around the early game, stuff you can do and have fun doing in less than 30 minutes time, because…. From my experience with Xbox Live worlds- They only last a few hours then the host leaves (and most the time you never see that same world ever again..)

So Klei should add more stuff like the LUNAR ISLAND where I can plop down a boat sail out to sea, explore a new biome filled with resources and mobs to quickly craft useful weapons and armors etc with.

Why do you think Skill trees are so widely accepted by most players? It’s because it’s content they unlock ONCE and then have almost instant access too, content they can enjoy in a typical 20 to 60 minute play session.

Mike this is like 4/5's of the game you haven't played. 

The beginning experience of DST has always been solid, it's where it goes after that. OP is talking about after you've got past the first season etc.

[Swiyss]

Another quick suggestion is how spiders and merms work today. I think that Klei should've linked both sides with them, and made so they will start to contaminate your world if you don't deal with them either with a Webber and a Wurt, or by just killing them. Merms had no linking between them until Wurt skill tree came out and now they do insanely overtunes things that have no reasoning behind them other than the fact that Wurt did all of that. And that's probably going to happen with Webber too in his skill tree. 

Before Webber skill tree, we gotta adress the world enviroment of lunacy and sanity affecting the monsters as well, not only us. This is perfect opportunity to make a followers update and remake some mechanics like bunnymen and pigmen following you and having curses linked with the full moon (werepigs) and low sanity (beardlords). Spiders and merms could actually get little lunar and shadow linking features OUTSIDE of webber and wurt skill tree, like we currently have with spiders in the lunar island. Unfortunately they currently do nothing, they're just a repeated mob with no use outside of being just another den of spiders.

Like, these are not only "ideas" that the community is having, these are basically features that looks like are perfectly to be worked on. And without full development, they feel like lore flaws.

[GrapeVruit]

It's honestly kind of disgusting how powerful certain skill trees make the survivors. Like, I get trying to make weaker characters be more in line with ones that are at the top, but when everyone's strong, no one is. It made me realize that it might be okay to have characters that aren't as strong as others, especially if it makes their gameplay more rewarding. I feel like by the end of this year, we're not going to be playing a survival game anymore. 

[Edible Coal]

1 hour ago, GrapeVruit said:

It's honestly kind of disgusting how powerful certain skill trees make the survivors. Like, I get trying to make weaker characters be more in line with ones that are at the top, but when everyone's strong, no one is. It made me realize that it might be okay to have characters that aren't as strong as others, especially if it makes their gameplay more rewarding. I feel like by the end of this year, we're not going to be playing a survival game anymore. 

i think is fine consider klei want player to reach end game faster and play with new content rather than trying to get food in day 100

[Mike23Ua]

1 hour ago, GrapeVruit said:

It's honestly kind of disgusting how powerful certain skill trees make the survivors. Like, I get trying to make weaker characters be more in line with ones that are at the top, but when everyone's strong, no one is. It made me realize that it might be okay to have characters that aren't as strong as others, especially if it makes their gameplay more rewarding. I feel like by the end of this year, we're not going to be playing a survival game anymore. 

Speak for yourself, I’m currently playing in a world as Wurt (I’m still trying to play long enough to unlock her 15 points in her skill tree) but I have rifts toggled to always on, and after just barely killing Deerclops/Feastclops (did they give this thing more health or something?!) it finally dies over dead and a Gashalt possess him into Crystal Deerclops.

But what I noticed during all of this, is that Wurt was at a constant and extreme disadvantage while interacting with Rift content enabled, as any vegetation would be infested by Brightshades protecting them, and then of course there’s the Deerclops/Iceclops itself which targets and destroys the literal hours of progress Wurts put into building up their Merm Kingdom.

I compare that to the likes of Woodie, Willow, and even now that she can pick up and carry all her crap portably, Winona… and it makes me realize that Wurt players probably have it the WORST in DST there are mobs/bosses that target her Structures, and Food Sources, and UNLIKE if I would had been playing as Woodie and could just Munch a Itchy Idol to go Moose on everything.. Wurts entire playstyle, her *power* comes from establishing structures, Structures that… Mobs & Other players can easily destroy taking away all of Wurts power.

Winona Use to share this problem, but now you can simply pick up and carry Winona’s Builds with you.

I think Wurt should get MORE Buffs, such as heck I don’t know… a “Construction Merm?” These will (overtime) build up her kingdom for her, and/or repair things the shacks and important structures that got destroyed.

And she’s literally the only character in the entire game who has this problem.

[Evelo]

Item balance needs to be changed as well. It is clear Klei wants to take DST into a Terraria direction (which I think of folly but whatever, their game, not mine.) so might as well make the armor progression make sense. As you stated, dreadstone can be earned at the same time as Thulecite and is only outclassed by Void Rift items, it is good because it does not require resources to repair compared to the Void Armor and the Brightshade Armor but never the less, it is weird how something so early can be competitive with something so late. While in the same breath WARBIS is practically useless late game when it is unlocked compared to early game. The reasoning might be because it is good for re-killing bosses like CC or Toadstool, but even then the Planar Armor does the same things, so Idk frankly. What's the purpose?

Then you have all the older items that are relatively useless compared to better items. This was fine back in the day when there were fewer items over all but now with item bloat some items really serve no purpose. I love the winter hat, but you wouldn't catch me wearing it if I am actually doing stuff around the world rather than around my base and just want a cute lil' hat.

I do like how backpacks and armors fit the same slot since you have to swap them out when needed (or do what I do and avoid backpacks all together unless you are hauling a lot of goods). What sucks is the armor differences. I like how the Football Helmet and Cookiecutter cap are actually different with equal positives and negatives to where both are perfectly valid to use. But then you get later on and acquire dreadstone once you delve into the ruins for the pick/axe then you never have to worry about armor again.

Anyway I'm just preaching to the choir at this point so you know already.

[Vinja]

4 hours ago, EctoPlaza said:

If Klei actually does something about the skilltrees they'll either a) wait until everyone has a skilltree before starting yet another round of reworks for them, or b) be convinced enough to postpone the remaining skilltrees now and rework the current ones before moving on so that a definitive standard is made going forward; option B may be less likely, but they did delay an update right before the holidays, so you never really know. 

I think klei is intending for each skill tree released to be the final version which is why they delayed the update. I don't think they plan on returning to skill trees in any major ways down the line unless something gamebreaking is caused by one. 

They said they were getting very tired of the character refreshes by the end of it so I doubt they'll want to dedicate another year or more of refreshes after multiple years of designing skill trees. 

[EctoPlaza]

11 minutes ago, Vinja said:

I think klei is intending for each skill tree released to be the final version which is why they delayed the update. I don't think they plan on returning to skill trees in any major ways down the line unless something gamebreaking is caused by one. 

They said they were getting very tired of the character refreshes by the end of it so I doubt they'll want to dedicate another year or more of refreshes after multiple years of designing skill trees. 

You hear that, @Swiyss? Neither option A or B is going to happen, apparently. 

[Vinja]

10 minutes ago, EctoPlaza said:

You hear that, @Swiyss? Neither option A or B is going to happen, apparently. 

None of us can see the future, it's possible either of those happen I'm just pointing out a possible third option

[Swiyss]

2 hours ago, Edible Coal said:

i think is fine consider klei want player to reach end game faster and play with new content rather than trying to get food in day 100

Making a character do 500 aoe damage won't make reaching the AFW or CC faster. Exploration, gathering, knowledge and time will do it. You're only really fighting necessarily 20% of the time.

[EctoPlaza]

8 minutes ago, Vinja said:

None of us can see the future, it's possible either of those happen I'm just pointing out a possible third option

The third option in question being that nothing happens and we just have to deal with it?

I agree about that being an option, and it's probably the most likely and realistic option. 

[Swiyss]

1 hour ago, Mike23Ua said:

Speak for yourself, I’m currently playing in a world as Wurt (I’m still trying to play long enough to unlock her 15 points in her skill tree) but I have rifts toggled to always on, and after just barely killing Deerclops/Feastclops (did they give this thing more health or something?!) it finally dies over dead and a Gashalt possess him into Crystal Deerclops.

But what I noticed during all of this, is that Wurt was at a constant and extreme disadvantage while interacting with Rift content enabled, as any vegetation would be infested by Brightshades protecting them, and then of course there’s the Deerclops/Iceclops itself which targets and destroys the literal hours of progress Wurts put into building up their Merm Kingdom.

I compare that to the likes of Woodie, Willow, and even now that she can pick up and carry all her crap portably, Winona… and it makes me realize that Wurt players probably have it the WORST in DST there are mobs/bosses that target her Structures, and Food Sources, and UNLIKE if I would had been playing as Woodie and could just Munch a Itchy Idol to go Moose on everything.. Wurts entire playstyle, her *power* comes from establishing structures, Structures that… Mobs & Other players can easily destroy taking away all of Wurts power.

Winona Use to share this problem, but now you can simply pick up and carry Winona’s Builds with you.

I think Wurt should get MORE Buffs, such as heck I don’t know… a “Construction Merm?” These will (overtime) build up her kingdom for her, and/or repair things the shacks and important structures that got destroyed.

And she’s literally the only character in the entire game who has this problem.

I think 90% of the problems you're facing are avoidable.

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

Then you have all the older items that are relatively useless compared to better items. This was fine back in the day when there were fewer items over all but now with item bloat some items really serve no purpose. I love the winter hat, but you wouldn't catch me wearing it if I am actually doing stuff around the world rather than around my base and just want a cute lil' hat.

Funny thing is that I prefer just sticking to a thermal stone and a torch and wait for a tam from inevitably fighting walruses than going out of my way for random beefalos to craft an item that I'll basically instantly remove and never use it the second I get a tam anyways.

1 trip to a savanna with a razor will make me not need to gather fur for a whole 1000 days unless I really need fur for a base project or something. Same for silk and pig skin.

Game's resources are continuously getting outclassed by new additions (like the eye mask and some skill trees and characters making certain resources completely useless) and we are not updating the old system.

It's been a year of me saying this kinda of stuff. I just hope that they won't start the next arc without taking atleast some of these issues in consideration.

[nimzowitsch10]

people on the forums have desperately tried to make topics like these the past years but klei never listens.

At this point we are screaming at the clouds

[Edible Coal]

1 hour ago, Swiyss said:

I think 90% of the problems you're facing are avoidable.

Funny thing is that I prefer just sticking to a thermal stone and a torch and wait for a tam from inevitably fighting walruses than going out of my way for random beefalos to craft an item that I'll basically instantly remove and never use it the second I get a tam anyways.

1 trip to a savanna with a razor will make me not need to gather fur for a whole 1000 days unless I really need fur for a base project or something. Same for silk and pig skin.

Game's resources are continuously getting outclassed by new additions (like the eye mask and some skill trees and characters making certain resources completely useless) and we are not updating the old system.

It's been a year of me saying this kinda of stuff. I just hope that they won't start the next arc without taking atleast some of these issues in consideration.

i sorta disagree with this mindset, is ultimately true that if you ever play solo, theres just no reason to craft a winter hat at all, however this is a multiplayer game, and is gonna be hard to get like 7 tamo for the whole team, winter hat is atlease there to slow down freezing if you need to

[Swiyss]

7 minutes ago, nimzowitsch10 said:

people on the forums have desperately tried to make topics like these the past years but klei never listens.

At this point we are screaming at the clouds

I'm sure that discussing these topics will eventually be positive.

I know that some people hate when Klei puts an end game skill behind an end game item. They usually talk about how that skill is useless unless they rush into late game. However Wormwood's 2 late game skill trees are a primal example of how amazing a skill can be, applying 2 features, one for early game and another one for late game. And both of those features benefitted the player in a balanced way, punishing them for their mistakes.

I have trust on them, I know that thy KNOW how to make skill trees, we just gotta point out how some of these needs some adjustments later on.

As for the progression side of things, I'm also pretty sure that the Warbis gear being where it currently stands is most likely temporary. We sure should get an actual low tier planar armour that is impactful without interrupting the current Thulecite situation.

As for old resources, I believe that eventually we'll get some situational side quests after opening rifts (late game requirement side quests sound amazing btw) that require some further utilisation of those old resources. 

As for followers and their impact of the game, I think that it is not that urgent or necessary, but more of a thing that will eventually narrow down to where it would make sense in a post apocalyptic war in the Constant.

I also know that some people hate the fact that skill trees like the Wigfrid one only have combat oriented skills. And with that I agree. It was a mistake to release it like that, and them having to come back for it will only delay things even more.

We gotta take things seriously to not accumulate problems later on. And idealise features more than 10 times before implementing them.

My hope is that we'll get to see less deviations this year and focus more on content leading to the main path.

1 minute ago, Edible Coal said:

i sorta disagree with this mindset, is ultimately true that if you ever play solo, theres just no reason to craft a winter hat at all, however this is a multiplayer game, and is gonna be hard to get like 7 tamo for the whole team, winter hat is atlease there to slow down freezing if you need to

in a multiplayer scenario, I'll basically use a thermal and a torch just like I said. It is not necessary to have any insulation gear for the whole winter unless you're planning to go places where you can't burn a tree. And in that case I'm just making a beefalo hat which is better.

Now IF somehow we're in a six people group and playing on a world with 1 mactusk and only 2 beefalos then I'm probably going to sleep under a decorated tree for a tam. And if that isn't possible, then I'll shave the 2 beef for a winter hat.

This mentality is called efficiency. Now I'm not saying that we should design the game based on my mentality only. All I was doing was to point out how I play the game to share my crumble of the cookie. And I'm pretty sure a lot of ppl also think like that too.

And if I could suggest something for making those less valuable gear more useful, would be to simply add tiny more sanity auras to existing winter gear like the koalefant clothes and the beefalo hat. I would also suggest adding situational features in the other clothes items that coincide with the progression of the game.

creating ways to defeat the pigs and hounds on the moon stone event is a thing. Then why not create items (not tied to specific survivors niche skill tree for the love of God) with old resources, or alter existing items that are less used to indirectly benefit you while doing moon stone events?

That's like killing 2 birds with one stone.

[Vinja]

2 hours ago, EctoPlaza said:

The third option in question being that nothing happens and we just have to deal with it?

I agree about that being an option, and it's probably the most likely and realistic option. 

It's not that nothing is happening it's that after klei takes their time to design a skill tree for a character this is the way klei intends for the character to be, which is fine imo

[Jakepeng99]

10 hours ago, Swiyss said:

If you care about the game, you'll read everything in this topic and give your opinion about it. This is very important for current development of the game. More than some of you might actually believe.

Everything seems to be the riffs and skilltree faults, which i fully agree with. I wonder a world.