Wendy's Skill Tree. Suggestions for Soul Wreath

[jrli]

Since the role of the soul wreath is to contact sisters, it is better to be more direct, so that Abigail can fully attach himself to Wendy, walk with Wendy and attack, and the potion effect is also shared, which can not only increase Wendy's upper limit, but also be more interesting than directly summoning Abby to attack himself. You don't even need to worry about Abigail's survival.

既然灵魂花环的作用是联系姐妹两，不如更加直接一些，让阿比盖尔可以完全附身于温蒂身上，于温蒂一同走位攻击，药剂效果也一同共享，不仅可以提高温蒂上限，也比直接召唤阿比自己上去攻击更有趣味性。甚至不需要担心阿比盖尔的生存问题。

[Koomin]

1 hour ago, jrli said:

Since the role of the soul wreath is to contact sisters, it is better to be more direct, so that Abigail can fully attach himself to Wendy, walk with Wendy and attack, and the potion effect is also shared, which can not only increase Wendy's upper limit, but also be more interesting than directly summoning Abby to attack himself. You don't even need to worry about Abigail's survival.

既然灵魂花环的作用是联系姐妹两，不如更加直接一些，让阿比盖尔可以完全附身于温蒂身上，于温蒂一同走位攻击，药剂效果也一同共享，不仅可以提高温蒂上限，也比直接召唤阿比自己上去攻击更有趣味性。甚至不需要担心阿比盖尔的生存问题。

Stating again that making it so that "I don't even need to worry about Abigail's survival" would be terrible and would be the easiest way to destroy Wendy as a character for me.  Having to worry about Abigail's survival to get the rewards she gives is the entire point of Wendy's design.

[jrli]

25 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Stating again that making it so that "I don't even need to worry about Abigail's survival" would be terrible and would be the easiest way to destroy Wendy as a character for me.  Having to worry about Abigail's survival to get the rewards she gives is the entire point of Wendy's design.

Why did sacrificing head armor to help Abigail avoid damage in your mouth by moving herself become a way to not worry about Abigail's survival.Where did this ruin Wendy's character? I hope you can give an example.

为什么牺牲头部护甲通过自己走位帮助阿比盖尔规避伤害到了你的嘴里变成了不需要担心阿比盖尔生存问题。这又那里破坏温蒂这个角色了？我希望你可以举个例子。

[1007954611]

I feel like Klei is deliberately limiting the strength of Soul Wrath, otherwise the effects of elixirs of immortality wouldn't be deliberately made so weak

感觉klei在刻意限制Soul Wreath的强度，不然几种药的效果不会做的那么弱那么抽象

[jrli]

1 hour ago, 1007954611 said:

I feel like Klei is deliberately limiting the strength of Soul Wrath, otherwise the effects of elixirs of immortality wouldn't be deliberately made so weak

感觉klei在刻意限制Soul Wreath的强度，不然几种药的效果不会做的那么弱那么抽象

yes. Instead of constantly changing the numerical values of Abigail. It's better to let Abigail strengthen Wendy herself. Make Wendy feel more comfortable playing boss.It doesn't require much skill either. At least achieve a magnification of 1.0. After all, Wendy's skill tree has not improved any logistical capabilities. At least increase the combat intensity.

是的。与其在阿比盖尔的数值上改来改去。真不如让阿比盖尔强化温蒂自身。让温蒂打boss舒服些。也不要求多厉害。至少做到1.0倍率吧。毕竟温蒂这技能树半点后勤能力提升都没有。那至少战斗强度拉起来吧。

[SilverSpoon]

3 hours ago, Koomin said:

Stating again that making it so that "I don't even need to worry about Abigail's survival" would be terrible and would be the easiest way to destroy Wendy as a character for me.  Having to worry about Abigail's survival to get the rewards she gives is the entire point of Wendy's design.

Personally, I think making Abigail immortal is going too far, but I see that there are some Wendy players, especially casual Wendy players, who say "I want Abigail to be immortal," so I think there are some people who don't think so. In fact, Wendy without Abigail is almost Wilson, and Wendy players definitely wouldn't like that. And I think Gesutabby is Klei's answer to that.

Above all, to say someone's suggestion is "terrible" , "easiest way to destroy Wendy as a character.", honestly, it's bit rude I think.

[Koomin]

5 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Personally, I think making Abigail immortal is going too far, but I see that there are some Wendy players, especially casual Wendy players, who say "I want Abigail to be immortal," so I think there are some people who don't think so. In fact, Wendy without Abigail is almost Wilson, and Wendy players definitely wouldn't like that. And I think Gesutabby is Klei's answer to that.

Above all, to say someone's suggestion is "terrible" , "easiest way to destroy Wendy as a character.", honestly, it's bit rude I think.

Reread my comment again.  I said it would be terrible for me because it would destroy Wendy as a character for me.  It is a personal opinion about how it would specifically affect me and my enjoyment of the character.

Regardless, if people are actually wanting immortal Abigail, I wholeheartedly support Klei adding an Abigail critter with this update to support this desire without destroying Wendy's character and play style.

 

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, Koomin said:

Reread my comment again.  I said it would be terrible for me because it would destroy Wendy as a character for me.  It is a personal opinion about how it would specifically affect me and my enjoyment of the character.

Regardless, if people are actually wanting immortal Abigail, I wholeheartedly support Klei adding an Abigail critter with this update to support this desire without destroying Wendy's character and play style.

I don't want to get too into the discussion since this is off-topic, but I think that "for me" is not an excuse to be rude. If not, I'll correct "it's bit rude I think for me."

Abigail critter is probably not to satisfy Wendy players, as it pretty much remove the reason for Wendy players. They not only want Abigail on screen, but they want to play with her.

[Koomin]

13 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I don't want to get too into the discussion since this is off-topic, but I think that "for me" is not an excuse to be rude. If not, I'll correct "it's bit rude I think for me."

Abigail critter is probably not to satisfy Wendy players, as it pretty much remove the reason for Wendy players. They not only want Abigail on screen, but they want to play with her.

Ok well I guess I completely disagree about your phrasing issue, but will move on.  For me, making Abigail so I don't have to worry about her survival is pretty much removing the reason to play Wendy.

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Koomin said:

Ok well I guess I completely disagree about your phrasing issue, but will move on.  For me, making Abigail so I don't have to worry about her survival is pretty much removing the reason to play Wendy.

Lunar and Shadow should serve for different playstyle as I think, therefore to make GestAbi become invisible seems ok for me.

[Debruh]

Just now, Steorra said:

Lunar and Shadow should serve for different playstyle as I think, therefore to make GestAbi become invisible seems ok for me.

Wouldn't that just make her be able to beat bosses on her own again?

[SilverSpoon]

19 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Wouldn't that just make her be able to beat bosses on her own again?

There are as many solutions as how we can think...

For example, my idea is that Gestabby would not attack unless Wendy hit mob and gave them "Reverse Vex".

Alternatively, instead of attacking enemies, Gestabby will possess Wendy, giving her one hit, or some hit only damage buff including Planar damage. Getting hit before attacking, she will blocks damage but break the possession. This is a reference to Brightshade Gestalt.

Or, Simply Gestabby would attack only when Wendy attacks like familiar of TBOI.

[Koomin]

40 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Lunar and Shadow should serve for different playstyle as I think, therefore to make GestAbi become invisible seems ok for me.

Wendy's character is designed around having to keep Abigail alive in order to benefit from all of the bonuses that she gives, which are quite a lot and pretty powerful.  She provides protection from mobs in normal play, provides light, aids in farming resources, helps fight bosses, haunts things, gives Wendy a damage bonus above the normal character, etc.  Getting all of that without having to worry about Abigail surviving breaks the character design.  An invincible follower would have to be very significantly weaker than the current Abigail (like 3 to 4 times weaker). A play style of getting all of these bonuses with no concern is not really compatible with her design, and would not work unless Abigail lost the majority of her benefits.

If a player doesn't want the play style of keeping Abigail alive to enjoy her benefits, unfortunately that is the entire point of Wendy's character design.

[Steorra]

26 minutes ago, Koomin said:

Wendy's character is designed around having to keep Abigail alive in order to benefit from all of the bonuses that she gives, which are quite a lot and pretty powerful.  She provides protection from mobs in normal play, provides light, aids in farming resources, helps fight bosses, haunts things, gives Wendy a damage bonus above the normal character, etc.  Getting all of that without having to worry about Abigail surviving breaks the character design.  An invincible follower would have to be very significantly weaker than the current Abigail (like 3 to 4 times weaker). A play style of getting all of these bonuses with no concern is not really compatible with her design, and would not work unless Abigail lost the majority of her benefits.

If a player doesn't want the play style of keeping Abigail alive to enjoy her benefits, unfortunately that is the entire point of Wendy's character design.

A good skilltree would strengthen what we have, and bring new playstyle. I don't think a brandnew playstyle from skilltree, from a particular affinity skill is bad.

Look, Wortox skilltree gave them AOE ability and complete rebuild a brandnew playstyle by naught skills. If Wendy would have a brandnew playstyle by only one affinity skill rather than half skills, I guess I'd glad to see it.

[Koomin]

24 minutes ago, Steorra said:

A good skilltree would strengthen what we have, and bring new playstyle. I don't think a brandnew playstyle from skilltree, from a particular affinity skill is bad.

Look, Wortox skilltree gave them AOE ability and complete rebuild a brandnew playstyle by naught skills. If Wendy would have a brandnew playstyle by only one affinity skill rather than half skills, I guess I'd glad to see it.

The issue is that invincible Abigail is not really a new play style.  How would you play any differently with invincible Abigail beyond just ignoring her?  A new play style is using Walter in melee, using beefalo with Wigfrid, or using followers as Wolfgang.  It changed how you play to a new approach with new upsides and downsides.  Having an invincible follower is not a new play style.

Current Gestalt Abigail is a new play style.  You trade area of effect damage for more survivability.  
The only way that invincible Abigail would make sense is if Gestalt Abigail is taken to the extreme.  Instead of trading something for more survivability, you would be trading things for invincibility, which is way stronger.  You would have to remove quite a lot of bonuses from her in exchange, like reducing her vex bonus a lot, removing her ability to do damage entirely, etc.  That seems like it would make Wendy pretty not fun, which is why it seems like a bad idea to me, and not a worthwhile idea to explore.

[Lee lol]

6 hours ago, Koomin said:

The issue is that invincible Abigail is not really a new play style.  How would you play any differently with invincible Abigail beyond just ignoring her?  A new play style is using Walter in melee, using beefalo with Wigfrid, or using followers as Wolfgang.  It changed how you play to a new approach with new upsides and downsides.  Having an invincible follower is not a new play style.

Current Gestalt Abigail is a new play style.  You trade area of effect damage for more survivability.  
The only way that invincible Abigail would make sense is if Gestalt Abigail is taken to the extreme.  Instead of trading something for more survivability, you would be trading things for invincibility, which is way stronger.  You would have to remove quite a lot of bonuses from her in exchange, like reducing her vex bonus a lot, removing her ability to do damage entirely, etc.  That seems like it would make Wendy pretty not fun, which is why it seems like a bad idea to me, and not a worthwhile idea to explore.

Wow, if you think riding Beefalo Wigfrid is also a game style... Shrug. I want to know how many Wigfrid players will ride beefalos in the battle. Is there 1%?

And the Wolfgang whistle. Maybe 2% of players will use it, which is a little higher than Wigfrid.

[jrli]

6 hours ago, Koomin said:

问题是，无敌的阿比盖尔并不是真正的新游戏风格。除了无视她之外，你还会如何与无敌的 Abigail 一起玩呢？一种新的游戏风格是在近战中使用 Walter，与 Wigfrid 一起使用 beefalo，或者像 Wolfgang 一样使用追随者。它改变了你的游戏方式，变成了一种新的方法，有新的优点和缺点。拥有无敌的追随者并不是一种新的游戏风格。

当前的格式塔 Abigail 是一种新的游戏风格。你可以用范围效果伤害来换取更多的生存能力。
无敌的阿比盖尔唯一有意义的方式是，如果格式塔阿比盖尔被带到极端。与其用一些东西换取更多的生存能力，不如用东西换取无敌，这要强得多。作为交换，您将不得不从她身上移除相当多的奖励，例如大幅降低她的 vex 奖励，完全消除她造成伤害的能力等。这似乎会让 Wendy 变得非常无趣，这就是为什么在我看来这似乎是个坏主意，不值得探索。

You seem to have made a mistake. Throughout the whole article, you are saying that Abigail is invincible. I never said that Abigail is invincible while wearing a ghost wreath. On the contrary, Wendy would be unable to equip her head armor due to the need to wear a ghost wreath on her head. When attacking a boss, if you are hit, both Wendy and Abigail will be harmed. Your so-called invincibility does not exist. This is just a high-risk, high return approach.The only thing you can do is help Abigail avoid damage by moving.

你似乎搞错了什么东西，通篇看下来你都在说阿比盖尔是无敌的。我可没有说过带着幽灵花环的情况下阿比盖尔是无敌的。相反，温蒂会因为头部需要带着幽灵花环而无法装备头部护甲。这在攻略boss时，倘若你受击，那么温蒂和阿比盖尔都会受到伤害。你所谓的无敌并不存在。这只是一种高风险高收益的办法而已。你唯一能做的只是通过走位帮助阿比盖尔规避伤害。

[Koomin]

37 minutes ago, jrli said:

You seem to have made a mistake. Throughout the whole article, you are saying that Abigail is invincible. I never said that Abigail is invincible while wearing a ghost wreath. On the contrary, Wendy would be unable to equip her head armor due to the need to wear a ghost wreath on her head. When attacking a boss, if you are hit, both Wendy and Abigail will be harmed. Your so-called invincibility does not exist. This is just a high-risk, high return approach.The only thing you can do is help Abigail avoid damage by moving.

你似乎搞错了什么东西，通篇看下来你都在说阿比盖尔是无敌的。我可没有说过带着幽灵花环的情况下阿比盖尔是无敌的。相反，温蒂会因为头部需要带着幽灵花环而无法装备头部护甲。这在攻略boss时，倘若你受击，那么温蒂和阿比盖尔都会受到伤害。你所谓的无敌并不存在。这只是一种高风险高收益的办法而已。你唯一能做的只是通过走位帮助阿比盖尔规避伤害。

I was originally quoting this part below, where you say that you would not have to worry about Abigail's survival.  My original posts just refer to that, since I think worrying about Abigail's survival is essential to the character, but more recent posts are after other posters discussed invincible Abigail:

23 hours ago, jrli said:

You don't even need to worry about Abigail's survival.

甚至不需要担心阿比盖尔的生存问题。

Example of another post discussing invincible Abigail (note that I corrected a typo from "invisible" to "invincible"):

8 hours ago, Steorra said:

Lunar and Shadow should serve for different playstyle as I think, therefore to make GestAbi become invincible seems ok for me.

 

54 minutes ago, Lee lol said:

Wow, if you think riding Beefalo Wigfrid is also a game style... Shrug. I want to know how many Wigfrid players will ride beefalos in the battle. Is there 1%?

And the Wolfgang whistle. Maybe 2% of players will use it, which is a little higher than Wigfrid.

For this post ^ @Lee lol.  Note that I did not say whether anyone uses these other playstyles or whether they are well designed, and it's not relevant to the point.  I just brought them up as examples of what an actual different play style is, and how invincible Abigail would not be a different play style.  They are actually pretty good indications that it is not a great idea to add alternative playstyles in skill trees as evidenced by their use and reception, but I don't mind if they keep trying as long as they are actually alternative playstyles and not invincible Abigail.