If lunar abi has the same performance as before, but can't fight bosses alone, will you bring her back?

[yinjiu019]

Through some method, maybe make it impossible for Wendy to irritate her or something like that?

Or can she only attack creatures that have a grudge against Wendy?

Something like that…?o(*￣▽￣*)ブ

[Edible Coal]

Aren't you suppose to fight together in the first place??

[yinjiu019]

3 minutes ago, Edible Coal said:

Aren't you suppose to fight together in the first place??

Some people think that the previous lunar abi was too powerful, and could defeat the boss alone without Wendy's help. This should be the reason why lunar abi was weakened

[SilverSpoon]

My suggestion: Like the original Abigail grants Vex when she attacks, Wendy grant "Reverse Vex" when she attacks and Gestabby to only attack enemies that have Reverse Vex, or her attacks against enemies that don't have it greatly reduced damage or her grant Grogginess like the original Gestalt.

If that's the case, I think it is OK Gestabby be as strong as it was before.

[Peasant]

3 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

My suggestion: Like the original Abigail grants Vex when she attacks, Wendy grant "Reverse Vex" when she attacks and Gestabby to only attack enemies that have Reverse Vex, or her attacks against enemies that don't have it greatly reduced damage or her grant Grogginess like the original Gestalt.

If that's the case, I think it is OK Gestabby be as strong as it was before.

Like summoner in terraria?

[yinjiu019]

8 minutes ago, YXukun said:

Like summoner in terraria?

To be precise, it should be a mechanism similar to the summoner penalty in Calamity?

[SilverSpoon]

11 minutes ago, YXukun said:

Like summoner in terraria?

3 minutes ago, yinjiu019 said:

To be precise, it should be a mechanism similar to the summoner penalty in Calamity?

I think they're both a bit different...Gestabby won't be able to give enough damage unless Wendy keeps attacking to a certain extent.

[Koomin]

9 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

 

I think beyond fighting bosses alone, the issue with the previous Gestalt Abigail was that you could essentially just ignore her and she would never die. If I didn't try to keep Abigail alive, she lived.  If I did try, she also lived.  The end result was that I could essentially ignore Abigail and not worry about her, and the whole point of Wendy is to work together with Abigail and manage her to get rewarded. Being able to ignore Abigail and get all of her benefits is against the whole point of playing Wendy, so I would definitely not want that version of Abigail back even if she couldn't solo bosses.  Having to put in effort to keep her from dying is essential to Wendy's design.

Edit: removed the quote, it was not intended

[Wendigail]

Easy to balance this for devs, like shadow guys when Maxwell attack together they increase atk speed.

[Lee lol]

1 hour ago, Koomin said:

我认为除了单独与 Boss 战斗之外，之前的格式塔阿比盖尔的问题在于，你基本上可以无视她，她永远不会死。如果我不努力让 Abigail 活着，她就会活着。如果我尝试了，她也活了下来。最终的结果是，我基本上可以忽略 Abigail，不用担心她，而 Wendy 的全部意义就是与 Abigail 一起工作并管理她以获得奖励。能够无视阿比盖尔并获得她的所有好处与玩温蒂的全部意义背道而驰，所以我绝对不希望那个版本的阿比盖尔回来，即使她不能单独打老板。必须付出努力防止她死亡对 Wendy 的设计至关重要。

编辑：删除了引文，这不是故意的

So you think the problem is mainly with invincibility frames? So how about we remove the hidden mode and the one-second attack pause?

[Koomin]

4 hours ago, Lee lol said:

So you think the problem is mainly with invincibility frames? So how about we remove the hidden mode and the one-second attack pause?

I agree that the hidden mode could be removed.  It is a bit thematic how Gestalt Abigail tries so hard to survive, but maybe the annoyance outweighs the thematic part.

The one second attack pause I think is there on purpose and makes sense.  Gestalt Abigail actually achieves her goal of surviving longer and easier quite well.  Most bosses attack fairly often, and normal Abigail often stands in front of the boss and gets hit a lot.  Gestalt Abigail can usually only get hit about once every 4 seconds if you don't even try at all, which is great.  With the current design, she can only get hit about 20% of the time (1 in 5 seconds), versus often 100% of the time for normal Abigail.  You just have to coordinate with Abigail to make her safe during that 20% of the time. I think she is not appreciated enough because a common strategy is to just use nightshade nostrum for maximum damage and ignore Abigail, and people are then shocked that she still dies.  They also expect her to just not be able to die at all to bosses, and then are upset that even though she lived a lot longer than normal Abigail, she still died.

If you work to defend her and take boss aggro during her 1 second of vulnerability, or try other potions that are more defensive, she is actually pretty great and I expect her to slowly become more popular as more people test and learn how to use it.

One other change I would consider making is to make her circle the boss a bit further away, for added survivability against area of effect.

[YuRinshue]

6 hours ago, Koomin said:

I think beyond fighting bosses alone, the issue with the previous Gestalt Abigail was that you could essentially just ignore her and she would never die. If I didn't try to keep Abigail alive, she lived.  If I did try, she also lived.  The end result was that I could essentially ignore Abigail and not worry about her, and the whole point of Wendy is to work together with Abigail and manage her to get rewarded. Being able to ignore Abigail and get all of her benefits is against the whole point of playing Wendy, so I would definitely not want that version of Abigail back even if she couldn't solo bosses.  Having to put in effort to keep her from dying is essential to Wendy's design.

Edit: removed the quote, it was not intended

As far as I know from the character descriptions in the game, there is actually no indication that 'Abigail's survival should be a burden for Wendy'. The only negative characteristic mentioned about Wendy is' weak impact '. Secondly, from the perspective of any game, protecting one's own summoning unit should naturally provide sufficient revenue, and by comparing it with DST's current game environment (specifically the Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift environment), we can see that Wendy's protection effort is not proportional to the protection reward she receives. Here you can refer to Maxwell's Shadow Gladiator, Willow's Bernie, Walter's Fishmen, Weber's Spiders, and so on. They all have more comprehensive mechanisms, reasonable fault tolerance, and most importantly, sufficient rewards, but the current Moon Abigail clearly lacks all three. She not only needs to invest your output time to manage it, but also cannot fulfill the output requirements on her own. At the same time, compared to other summoning creatures, it is basically equivalent to having no fault tolerance (even the Shadow Gladiator with the least health has sufficient survival mechanisms, and they are very cheap, so Maxwell does not need to consider helping them survive). Therefore, overall, I think the current Moon Abigail is far from meeting the "standard design" requirements, and there are still too many problems that need to be optimized, not just that.

[Koomin]

10 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

As far as I know from the character descriptions in the game, there is actually no indication that 'Abigail's survival should be a burden for Wendy'. The only negative characteristic mentioned about Wendy is' weak impact '. Secondly, from the perspective of any game, protecting one's own summoning unit should naturally provide sufficient revenue, and by comparing it with DST's current game environment (specifically the Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift environment), we can see that Wendy's protection effort is not proportional to the protection reward she receives. Here you can refer to Maxwell's Shadow Gladiator, Willow's Bernie, Walter's Fishmen, Weber's Spiders, and so on. They all have more comprehensive mechanisms, reasonable fault tolerance, and most importantly, sufficient rewards, but the current Moon Abigail clearly lacks all three. She not only needs to invest your output time to manage it, but also cannot fulfill the output requirements on her own. At the same time, compared to other summoning creatures, it is basically equivalent to having no fault tolerance (even the Shadow Gladiator with the least health has sufficient survival mechanisms, and they are very cheap, so Maxwell does not need to consider helping them survive). Therefore, overall, I think the current Moon Abigail is far from meeting the "standard design" requirements, and there are still too many problems that need to be optimized, not just that.

Wendy's "weak impact" is that she does less damage if Abigail dies.  If Abigail is alive, she does more damage than normal, and she definitely provides "sufficient revenue".  If Abigail can never die, the weak impact part is basically deleted.  Saying that you shouldn't have to put any effort towards keeping Abigail alive is a bit ridiculous and clearly not the intent of thr character.  Helping Abigail survive isn't supposed to be a burden. It is supposed to be part of the fun and challenge of the character - learning how to work together and keep both Abigail and Wendy alive and working as team.  If it's a burden for you, you might be approaching it wrong.

For your other points- you just declare that other things are comprehensive and strong and Wendy's things are not, but provide no reasoning or evidence beyond that you think so.  There is no real substance to your statements, so I'm not really sure how to respond beyond that I unfortunately do not share your opinion.

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Koomin said:

the weak impact part is basically deleted. 

I'm sorry but I guess this already happened to nice Wortox...

[Lee lol]

9 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I'm sorry but I guess this already happened to nice Wortox...

Just like the skill tree of Wortox, the player tag of Wendy's skill tree is optional. So I don't think there is a problem with this. It provides an optional path for people who want to delete Wendy's shortcomings and don't want to delete them.

[YuRinshue]

2 hours ago, Koomin said:

Wendy's "weak impact" is that she does less damage if Abigail dies.  If Abigail is alive, she does more damage than normal, and she definitely provides "sufficient revenue".  If Abigail can never die, the weak impact part is basically deleted.  Saying that you shouldn't have to put any effort towards keeping Abigail alive is a bit ridiculous and clearly not the intent of thr character.  Helping Abigail survive isn't supposed to be a burden. It is supposed to be part of the fun and challenge of the character - learning how to work together and keep both Abigail and Wendy alive and working as team.  If it's a burden for you, you might be approaching it wrong.

For your other points- you just declare that other things are comprehensive and strong and Wendy's things are not, but provide no reasoning or evidence beyond that you think so.  There is no real substance to your statements, so I'm not really sure how to respond beyond that I unfortunately do not share your opinion.

I think your understanding of my viewpoint is one-sided and insufficient. My viewpoint emphasizes the importance of "achieving standards in a comparative environment" and the corresponding "balance of income and expenditure".
But in fact, the Moon Abigail now requires you to maintain it with more operational pressure than any other character on its summoned creatures. But the resources obtained are far lower than the cost-effectiveness of summoning energy for other characters. Under the influence of surface entities, Moon Abigail can only provide a maximum single damage DPS of 39.7 and an equivalent normal attack multiplier of 1.15. In order to obtain this profit, Wendy even had to sacrifice her output time to exchange for the output of Moon Abigail. No character with summoning function has such a low energy cost-effectiveness.
This is not 'what I think' but 'the actual situation'.
Even the previous moon Abigail did not change the fact that it provided scarce returns, but at least it ensured that Wendy did not need to reduce her effective output space to lower the already scarce returns.
Meanwhile, the argument in your words that 'if Abigail dies, Wendy will cause less harm' is an inverted causal argument. She traded a lower base coefficient for Abigail's benefit, not because Abigail's death would lower her attack coefficient. And Moon Abigail is not only a disadvantage for Wendy in terms of attack coefficient, but also a double reward for the advantages of normal Abigail AOE. This should not be a low return, high-risk resource black hole.
It's like Votox halving his food income, but he can obtain three attributes of health, satiety, and spirit through his soul, and provide much more additional income. You cannot lead the topic to the misleading conclusion that 'if there is no soul, then Votox must be punished by food profits' by using the reversed causal viewpoint.

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, Steorra said:

I'm sorry but I guess this already happened to nice Wortox...

That isn't the weak point of Wortox it's half stats from food and sanity damage from souls the mob tag is basically flavor like Wurt's pig tag

Removing Wendy's weakness would be like completely removing Wortox's above downsides

Also once again they've already removed multiple weak points of Wendy in the past people are just against removing her primary one which is her character to defining trait.

[Steorra]

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

That isn't the weak point of Wortox it's half stats from food and sanity damage from souls the mob tag is basically flavor like Wurt's pig tag

Removing Wendy's weakness would be like completely removing Wortox's above downsides

Also once again they've already removed multiple weak points of Wendy in the past people are just against removing her primary one which is her character to defining trait.

Unlike Webber who still have neutral mobs (spiders), Wortox have not, it is his weak point.

11 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

be like completely removing Wortox's above downsides

and it's not, Wortox's downside which you mentioned could be ignored in endgame, but Wendy's could not at the current stage 

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

already removed multiple weak points of Wendy

This is same for many others. I don't think the refresh of character should be considered in balance topic, they already become basic mechanic of DST. 

P.S : I have same attitude to Maxwell as well. yep I believe that the shadow prison or other things of Max would not be nerfed when the skill tree of him updated.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Unlike Webber who still have neutral mobs (spiders), Wortox have not, it is his weak point.

1. That's a very minor downside that barely effects gameplay he could even still recruit pigs before it using a 1 man band.

2. His sanity loss from souls is increased to compensate which depending on your playstyle is a even bigger downside.

6 minutes ago, Steorra said:

and it's not, Wortox's downside which you mentioned could be ignored in endgame, but Wendy's could not at the current stage 

It can't no matter what stage of the game your at it won't change the fact that if you were to use food you need twice as much as the rest of the cast to have a equal impact and the sanity loss from souls isn't something that just goes away sure you can make sanity food but that's not the downside going away.

Wendy's frail downside on the otherhand can be hidden by using a beefalo it always could the beefalo won't suddenly start under performing when it knows Wendy is the rider like food will when Wortox uses it.

[Steorra]

22 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

it won't change the fact that if you were to use food you need twice as much as the rest of the cast to have a equal impact and the sanity loss from souls isn't something that just goes away sure you can make sanity food but that's not the downside going away.

point take, though it seems not such impactful to me, which just like how Wendy is bad to dealt with her own Shadows

22 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

can be hidden by using a beefalo

Beefalo still has others downside. The expensive price is one of it. (Though I know as a permanent beefalo, the price is still not "expensive")

[YuRinshue]

2 hours ago, Mysterious box said:

That isn't the weak point of Wortox it's half stats from food and sanity damage from souls the mob tag is basically flavor like Wurt's pig tag

Removing Wendy's weakness would be like completely removing Wortox's above downsides

Also once again they've already removed multiple weak points of Wendy in the past people are just against removing her primary one which is her character to defining trait.

Consuming the soul can replenish satiety, releasing the soul can restore spirit and health. I hope you have clearly remembered all the compensation provided by Vortex's soul. It is obvious that the 50% profit from food cannot have any meaningful impact on him, and the function of the soul is far beyond restoring basic attributes.
Not to mention exchanging "it eats two meals" for so many benefits in a game with the most overflowing food. I believe that players with a reasonable understanding of the game can see that this is completely unequal, and that 'weaknesses cannot be eliminated' is unconvincing. Even more exaggeratedly, "Do you consider a weakness that you can't feel to be a weakness

[Koomin]

50 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

Consuming the soul can replenish satiety, releasing the soul can restore spirit and health. I hope you have clearly remembered all the compensation provided by Vortex's soul. It is obvious that the 50% profit from food cannot have any meaningful impact on him, and the function of the soul is far beyond restoring basic attributes.
Not to mention exchanging "it eats two meals" for so many benefits in a game with the most overflowing food. I believe that players with a reasonable understanding of the game can see that this is completely unequal, and that 'weaknesses cannot be eliminated' is unconvincing. Even more exaggeratedly, "Do you consider a weakness that you can't feel to be a weakness

These Wortox statements are a bit odd.  I'd be interested to hear about your play style with Wortox to have formed these opinions.  You absolutely feel the half food weakness, and it does have a meaningful impact.  Saying that souls can just be used as an equivalent replacement for food is not accurate.  For example, eating one 50 sanity food during a fight is way easier than dropping 20 souls on the ground 1 by 1 (disregarding the fact that souls actually take some time to get anyway).  Going to the ruins where it is harder to get souls and food presents new challenges. Having souls is sometimes better than a normal character, and sometimes worse.  Just like having Abigail is sometimes better than a normal character (when you manage her well and she survives and you are more powerful than a normal character), and sometimes worse (when you mess up and she dies, and you do less damage then a normal character).

Beyond that - perpetually bringing up other characters is not really a great argument when discussing removing downsides.  I don't agree with removing the possibility of Abigail dying because it ruins the design of Wendy and I would not enjoy or want to play her.  The possibility of some other character having their design ruined as well or missing a downside doesn't matter for the topic.  Trying to convince me that other characters are designed poorly and not fun does not convince me that we should also want Wendy to be designed poorly and make her not fun.  I want Wendy to be fun regardless of other characters.  Talking about Wortox here is pointless.  If you think nice Wortox should keep his monster tag, by all means go make a post about it.  I would be happy to support you, but it is not really relevant to this discussion about Wendy.

Abigail being immortal would be a terrible design choice, and it's a bit concerning that that is a contentious statement.

 

[Mysterious box]

2 hours ago, YuRinshue said:

Consuming the soul can replenish satiety, releasing the soul can restore spirit and health. I hope you have clearly remembered all the compensation provided by Vortex's soul. It is obvious that the 50% profit from food cannot have any meaningful impact on him, and the function of the soul is far beyond restoring basic attributes.
Not to mention exchanging "it eats two meals" for so many benefits in a game with the most overflowing food. I believe that players with a reasonable understanding of the game can see that this is completely unequal, and that 'weaknesses cannot be eliminated' is unconvincing. Even more exaggeratedly, "Do you consider a weakness that you can't feel to be a weakness

Food is always and will always be more efficient on hunger and sanity than souls and the main reason Wortox has skills boosting his healing effectiveness is specifically because of how bad souls fell off after the early game for healing and hunger. I feel like you just must not be experienced with Wortox if you feel the reduced stats from the absolute best stat management resource in the game isn't impactful.

3 hours ago, Steorra said:

point take, though it seems not such impactful to me, which just like how Wendy is bad to dealt with her own Shadows

Which is also ignored by using a beefalo ironically but that being said it's not like fighting nightmares is much harder for Wendy either way.

4 hours ago, Steorra said:

Beefalo still has others downside. The expensive price is one of it. (Though I know as a permanent beefalo, the price is still not "expensive")

I'd say it's more so a expensive startup with the main expense being time but all the conveniences over the years have made a tamed beef a lot easier to manage it's usually the commitment of beginning the process that's the most daunting for people.

[YuRinshue]

14 hours ago, Koomin said:

These Wortox statements are a bit odd.  I'd be interested to hear about your play style with Wortox to have formed these opinions.  You absolutely feel the half food weakness, and it does have a meaningful impact.  Saying that souls can just be used as an equivalent replacement for food is not accurate.  For example, eating one 50 sanity food during a fight is way easier than dropping 20 souls on the ground 1 by 1 (disregarding the fact that souls actually take some time to get anyway).  Going to the ruins where it is harder to get souls and food presents new challenges. Having souls is sometimes better than a normal character, and sometimes worse.  Just like having Abigail is sometimes better than a normal character (when you manage her well and she survives and you are more powerful than a normal character), and sometimes worse (when you mess up and she dies, and you do less damage then a normal character).

Beyond that - perpetually bringing up other characters is not really a great argument when discussing removing downsides.  I don't agree with removing the possibility of Abigail dying because it ruins the design of Wendy and I would not enjoy or want to play her.  The possibility of some other character having their design ruined as well or missing a downside doesn't matter for the topic.  Trying to convince me that other characters are designed poorly and not fun does not convince me that we should also want Wendy to be designed poorly and make her not fun.  I want Wendy to be fun regardless of other characters.  Talking about Wortox here is pointless.  If you think nice Wortox should keep his monster tag, by all means go make a post about it.  I would be happy to support you, but it is not really relevant to this discussion about Wendy.

Abigail being immortal would be a terrible design choice, and it's a bit concerning that that is a contentious statement.

 

I think there is a huge cognitive gap in our communication, so you still hold some views that I have never recognized.Burning Red Soul! The little demon takes 15 days to quickly kill the celestial hero and weaver! Famine Online Edition - Bilibili https://b23.tv/VHSEUhpThis is the performance of Votox after possessing the skill tree. He opened the Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift rift for 15 days and had no meaningful need for food. You may say 'it's not easy to accomplish this', but I can only tell you that at least from the perspective of not needing food, it's easy.Secondly, you often speculate about my ideas, such as the so-called 'you only want Abigail to be immortal'. I don't know if this is related to translation, but to be honest, it doesn't make your viewpoint more powerful, it only makes me feel that your viewpoint is detached from objective reality and too subjective.My main opinion on Wendy's skill tree has always been to provide Abigail with reasonable fault tolerance and energy cost-effectiveness in the era of Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift. I don't mind if these benefits can only be activated after the Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift is turned on, but I object to you denying this requirement from the beginning, as if you have never used Wendy in the Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift version.

[Koomin]

57 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

I think there is a huge cognitive gap in our communication, so you still hold some views that I have never recognized.Burning Red Soul! The little demon takes 15 days to quickly kill the celestial hero and weaver! Famine Online Edition - Bilibili https://b23.tv/VHSEUhpThis is the performance of Votox after possessing the skill tree. He opened the Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift rift for 15 days and had no meaningful need for food. You may say 'it's not easy to accomplish this', but I can only tell you that at least from the perspective of not needing food, it's easy.Secondly, you often speculate about my ideas, such as the so-called 'you only want Abigail to be immortal'. I don't know if this is related to translation, but to be honest, it doesn't make your viewpoint more powerful, it only makes me feel that your viewpoint is detached from objective reality and too subjective.My main opinion on Wendy's skill tree has always been to provide Abigail with reasonable fault tolerance and energy cost-effectiveness in the era of Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift. I don't mind if these benefits can only be activated after the Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift is turned on, but I object to you denying this requirement from the beginning, as if you have never used Wendy in the Lunar Rift+Shadow Rift version.

Again- whether Wortox has downsides or not is not relevant to this discussion, so I'm not sure why you are linking videos about Wortox.  The topic is about Wendy.  My opinion is that I would not find her fun or interesting to play if her downsides were removed.  I don't know why watching a Wortox speed run would be relevant to that. 

I agree with you that focusing on Wendy post-rift is the correct choice.  I would be happy if her skill tree was weakened before rifts, and strengthened after rifts.  I have made many posts saying specifically that.  We agree, as long as both the weakening and strengthening happen.  I do not agree that bringing back the too strong, ignorable, and unfun previous Gestalt Abigail is the way to do it, even if she can't solo bossss.  Having Abigail survive without me doing anything is not fun for me, and so that version was not fun for me.  I would be open to supporting other ideas, but not that one.