How to Fix Blessed Sisturn III

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

I was have no interest to nerf cursed vex before most of you insist to nerf survival of abi.

If it's a double standard, it's your karma. You deserve this.

I know you have no interest. You said it would be OP. That's an assertion. I'm asking you to explain your assertion.

If an argument is guilty of a double standard, then it shows that whatever standard it claimed to live by isn't true and, most likely, it's based on pure emotion. 

[thesooz9000]

Hey Lardee, these are some awesome suggestions, I just hope blessed sisturn III gets fixed so it doesn't make Wendy a boring and uninteresting character to fight as, I started playing Wendy when I was new to the game cause I struggled with basic mobs, I continued playing Wendy cause I enjoyed how different boss fights were as her.

[Lardee]

5 minutes ago, Shining Galaxy said:

It should be this way. Beginners need the buffs from the skill tree more than veterans; they are less skilled at managing Abigail and more likely to turn Wendy into Wes. Veterans, on the other hand, can play better than beginners even if they use Wes throughout the entire game.

Why should it be that way if veteran buffs have zero impact on beginners?  How does a veteran playstyle getting buffed affect a beginner's ability to enjoy the game?

[Debruh]

8 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I know you have no interest. You said it would be OP. That's an assertion. I'm asking you to explain your assertion.

If an argument is guilty of a double standard, then it shows that whatever standard it claimed to live by isn't true and, most likely, it's based on pure emotion. 

Don't bother with Steorra. Already stated that they're not taking you seriously 

[Steorra]

17 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I know you have no interest. You said it would be OP. That's an assertion. I'm asking you to explain your assertion.

Oh, really? You do want my explanation?

https://b23.tv/e6HAGWG

This is what I did when CC just patched out 3 years ago. At that moment I hit the record which is only slower than Wolfgang. 

I know many new CC speed kill record might refreshed as time passed by.

But it is already an evidence to show how broken the DPS Wendy has before current skill tree. We all know CC is the most hardest quest of Wendy right?

 

10 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Why should it be that way if veteran buffs have zero impact on beginners?  How does a veteran playstyle getting buffed affect a beginner's ability to enjoy the game?

Because some veteran prefer to nerf casual gameplay.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Oh, really? You do want my explanation?

https://b23.tv/e6HAGWG

This is what I did when CC just patched out. At that moment I hit the record which is only slower than Wolfgang. 

I know many new CC speed kill record might refreshed as time passed by.

But it is already an evidence to show how broken the DPS Wendy has before current skill tree. We all know CC is the most hardest quest of Wendy right?

 

So Wendy's DPS is broken because you briefly held the record for CC speedruns back in 2021 when the boss was locked behind summer (Day 55)? Please tell me if I'm misunderstanding.

Or are you saying back in 2021 long before the skill trees and even before Wanda came out, Wendy could finish fighting CC faster than everyone except Wolfgang?

Either way, I have no idea how either of those two arguments mean buffing Wendy's damage in 2024 would be "too OP".

9 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Because some veteran prefer to nerf casual gameplay.

I'm proposing both casual and veteran gameplay get buffed, so this statement makes no sense.

[thesooz9000]

15 minutes ago, Lardee said:

So Wendy's DPS is broken because you briefly held the record for CC speedruns back in 2021 when the boss was locked behind summer (Day 55)? Please tell me if I'm misunderstanding.

I watched the video, and translated the description as best I can, and from what I gathered it's

 

1. Not a normal speedrun, just killing the boss really fast (it's day 3)

2. The comment they posted that I tried to translate stated (AGAIN, MACHINE TRANSLATION, MIGHT BE WRONG) "Regarding the strategy: The core idea for Wendy with the War Boar to defeat the Celestial Champion is how to ensure Abigail stays on the field for as long as possible After all, even ignoring her own damage output, her 54% damage boost to the War Boar is not to be underestimated"

 

 

Also, Considering they were able to keep Abigail alive for the entire fight (without any of the skill tree buffs) I don't understand why people are advocating for more buffs.

[Lardee]

2 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

I watched the video, and translated the description as best I can, and from what I gathered it's

 

1. Not a normal speedrun, just killing the boss really fast (it's day 3)

2. The comment they posted that I tried to translate stated (AGAIN, MACHINE TRANSLATION, MIGHT BE WRONG) "Regarding the strategy: The core idea for Wendy with the War Boar to defeat the Celestial Champion is how to ensure Abigail stays on the field for as long as possible After all, even ignoring her own damage output, her 54% damage boost to the War Boar is not to be underestimated"

Yeah I think his argument is that, back in 2021 before Wanda came out, Wendy at her max potential was the second highest DPS character. Therefore buffing her DPS further in 2024 would be OP.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Either way, I have no idea how either of those two arguments mean buffing Wendy's damage in 2024 would be "too OP".

Oh, 2021 Abi's survival is ok, 2024 is still ok but with player tag become OP.

Then same for Wendy's DPS, 2021 is OP, 2024 is still OP, because bafeelo got no nerfed, and cursed vex gave an extremely buff. Even it was buffed again in this beta.

 

We all say that "Wendy was strong before skill tree!" During this beta. So if without skill tree Wendy was already strong, why Wendy need a huge damage buff which like 40% or even 60%+? Do you have any basic knowledge about "balance" of video game? Do you know what would means for a strong hitting character if they get another 40% DPS buff without any downside of the buff?

10 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

Also, Considering they were able to keep Abigail alive for the entire fight (without any of the skill tree buffs) I don't understand why people are advocating for more buffs.

Yeah, that because this is my video. That means I could keep Abi alive. So then?

I could do something do not means everyone could. It is a very simple logic. And yeah because I could keep Abi alive in CC battler of which the most hardest for Abi, it's enough to prove that I could have a basic concept of what problem of Abi's survival before the skill trees.

You guys like Elitisim right? Now you could try to kick me out off your Elitisim club.

[thesooz9000]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Oh, 2021 Abi's survival is ok, 2024 is still ok but with player tag become OP.

Then same for Wendy's DPS, 2021 is OP, 2024 is still OP, because bafeelo got no nerfed, and cursed vex gave an extremely buff. Even it was buffed again in this beta.

 

We all say that "Wendy was strong before skill tree!" During this beta. So if without skill tree Wendy was already strong, why Wendy need a huge damage buff which like 40% or even 60%+? Do you have any basic knowledge about "balance" of video game? Do you know what would means for a strong hitting character if they get another 40% DPS buff without any downside of the buff?

The difficulty of playing wendy wasn't how much abigail buffed your damage.

It was always about figuring out how to keep abigail alive during boss fights.

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Yeah, that because this is my video. That means I could keep Abi alive. So then?

I could do something do not means everyone could. It is a very simple logic. And yeah because I could keep Abi alive in CC battler of which the most hardest for Abi, it's enough to prove that I could have a basic concept of what problem of Abi's survival before the skill trees.

 

It means players already have options for keeping abigail alive in her "hardest fight" they don't need more options that take away skill and strategy, and instead just giga buff her survive-ability.

6 minutes ago, Steorra said:

You guys like Elitisim right? Now you could try to kick me out off your Elitisim club.

I'd love to figure out where this elitism club is?

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

The difficulty of playing wendy wasn't how much abigail buffed your damage.

It was always about figuring out how to keep abigail alive during boss fights.

So you admit that to to keep abi alive is difficult?

Why your words seems start to against yourself?

 

And yeah you already know Wendy's damage do no influence to Wendy's difficulty, then why not to nerf her DPS as the price for buffing her downside?

 No need to say how Woodie got his cover of his downside without any price.

[Lardee]

10 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Oh, 2021 Abi's survival is ok, 2024 is still ok but with player tag become OP.

It may or may not be OP. I'm asking you to give an actual argument.

10 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Then same for Wendy's DPS, 2021 is OP, 2024 is still OP, because bafeelo got no nerfed, and cursed vex gave an extremely buff. Even it was buffed again in this beta.

Why is it OP. Give an actual argument.

 

10 minutes ago, Steorra said:

We all say that "Wendy was strong before skill tree!" During this beta. So if without skill tree Wendy was already strong, why Wendy need a huge damage buff which like 40% or even 60%+? Do you have any basic knowledge about "balance" of video game? Do you know what would means for a strong hitting character if they get another 40% DPS buff without any downside of the buff?

I never said she needed a huge damage buff. I don't think she needs a damage buff at all, just like I don't think she needs the player tag. 

The damage buffs are simply there to not make the player tag the dominant strategy for people who don't need it. It is there to reward people for using their skill to take on extra risk. That's what makes characters fun. That's good game design.

I have a perspective of what I think is "balanced" but I don't think the game should revolve around my feelings anymore than they should revolve around yours. So I leave that perspective at the door as should you.

If you have an actual argument to explain why 60% damage increase is OP, let's hear it.

[thesooz9000]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

So you admit that to to keep abi alive is difficult?

Why your words seems start to against yourself?

 

Yes, Keeping Abigail alive is Wendy's downside, it should stay as a downside. Don't see how this changes anything, Wendy should have difficult match-ups where she has to actually manage Abigail, instead of just steamrolling through the game with her unkillable summon.

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

And yeah you already know Wendy's damage do no influence to Wendy's difficulty, then why not to nerf her DPS as the price for buffing her downside?

Lardee suggested this in this post, Read the start of the topic, he literally suggests exactly what you are stating.

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

 No need to say how Woodie got his cover of his downside without any price.

Woodie's downside is not being able to use any items during his weremoose forms.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I never said she needed a huge damage buff. I don't think she needs a damage buff at all, just like I don't think she needs the player tag. 

You are right, finally we have got some basic consensus. I would ask Abi need no cursed vex and I would ask to remove the cursed vex completely later when I have spare time. Hoping your support at that time. Bye.

6 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

instead of just steamrolling through the game with her unkillable summon.

The problem of stream rolling is based on both abi's survival and abi's strong vex buff.

You can't be blind to one of them but just insist to nerf another.

7 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

Woodie's downside is not being able to use any items during his weremoose forms

You might be blind to how the skill tree covered Woodies downside of his weaknesses after the transformation stop. 

I guess I have no more interest to argue these meaningless thing.

[Lardee]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

You are right, finally we have got some basic consensus. I would ask Abi need no cursed vex and I would ask to remove the cursed vex completely later when I have spare time. Hoping your support at that time. Bye.

Glad we agree that the player tag isn't needed as well as my idea about Dark Petals buffing Wendy's vex damage isn't needed. I agree, we've finally gotten somewhere.

[thesooz9000]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

The problem of stream rolling is based on both abi's survival and abi's strong vex buff.

Not really, the damage buffs don't let her tank 3-4x as many Armored Bearger hits. The damage buffs are unnecessary, but aren't able to shut down Abigail's weakness as much.

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

Not really, the damage buffs don't let her tank 3-4x as many Armored Bearger hits. The damage buffs are unnecessary

Same to Wolfgang. So Wolfgang is not OP. Dishonest confirmed. Bye.

[Lardee]

4 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

Not really, the damage buffs don't let her tank 3-4x as many Armored Bearger hits. The damage buffs are unnecessary, but aren't able to shut down Abigail's weakness as much.

Super easy way to clear this up: How about @Steorra show us them beating Armored Bearger without Blessed Sisturn III, but he can use all the Shadow aligned damaged buffs.

Then compare that to Armored Bearger with Blessed Sisturn III, but no Shadow buffs. 

 

[Elpida]

I think this is a problem only when abi has player tag + cureall
I suggest player tag only be active when these 2 conditions are met:
1: World has a Sisturn with blossoms in it
2: One of the defensive potions are active (Unyielding Draught or Distilled Vengeance)
So the moment Wendy applies cure all or any other potions (nightshade) player tag deactivates

Please don't touch Vex

[Debruh]

1 hour ago, Steorra said:

You might be blind to how the skill tree covered Woodies downside of his weaknesses after the transformation stop. 

Woodie got that in his lunar alignment. Not just a general skill. In addition, he still can't use items when transformed. And unless you're doing moonstorms, shadow wrangler is just better

[Xplan]

11 hours ago, Lardee said:

However Abigail takes 25% more damage from all sources.

100% would be fair, seriously

[yinjiu019]

Making things you want better and making things you don't want worse, is this how you do it...?
A slightly selfish behavior...
...( ＿ ＿)ノ｜

[Kacpert25]

11 hours ago, Lardee said:

If Wendy decorates the Sisturn with dark petals, Wendy's vex buff increases from 1.4 to 1.75 (25% increase). However Abigail takes 25% more damage from all sources.

Another way to buff vex's damage? After all, we already have a elixir from Shadow Sisterhood II that is used for this purpose. 

The effect with dark petals could be different than what you proposed.

[Dingle]

7 hours ago, somethin said:

Couldn't be more overtuned than current Maxwell tbh. He's just peak broken character. Now I wonder what his skill tree will be.

I'd agree with you at the start of the beta, that Wendy couldn't end up being more overtuned than Maxwell. Now I'm not so sure. She can already get up to more damage than Wolfgang, now.

Maxwell's skill tree will probably include nerfs. For all his obvious power, he's really not that popular off top of head. So there won't be enough people to scream at Klei to buff him, instead of nerfing him.

Look at Wigfrid. She's the second most popular character. Even in China, I believe. She did not get her own brigade to dominate the forum. She didn't get a beta extension. She didn't get a special period where forum moderation was turned off.

Wendy really seems to be getting special treatment.

The difference is that Wendy is the most popular character by far. Second most popular is unpopular in comparison.

Oh, exception to this: It's also possible that all character update betas are like this, from now on. If the precedent gets firmly set of "bad behavior gets rewarded".

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, Shining Galaxy said:

By mentioning Wigfrid here, it precisely indicates that you also recognize, in your heart, this fact: Wigfrid still has a broken skill tree, just like the current Wendy. It is because of what you have said that we are confronted with a regret about Wigfrid that is difficult to change. Such occurrences should not happen again.

Justice for Wigford. Yeah I was disappointed by her skill tree, I said so before. So you're not exactly making this huge gotcha moment, sorry to disappoint.

The rest of what you said indicates that:

1. Every character beta from now on will be like this, that is your intent.

2. You will never stop asking for Wendy buffs. You will never be happy with her strength.