Elaboration on Blessed Sisturn & Cure All reworks.

[WenericMember]

@Steorra conceptualised a set of 2 compromises for the blessed sisturn and spectral cure-all, to attempt to provide a compromise that  everyone can tolerate. Heres my elaboration on those:

1) Spectral cure alls cost goes from one telltale heart to one life giving amulet.

This ones the most controversial, as its a substantial change to Wendy's base kit, but I think its a necessary change. The aim isnt necessarily to nerf it, but to change the way it interacts with the rest of Wendys kit.

While it doesn't remove the cheese potential of bosses (allowing the option for those who still want it), it brings the cost to the level of other cheese strats, like Woodies treeguard idol.

To compensate, I propose making spectral cure-all a super potion. This introduces the mechanic pre-rifts, and stops it overshadowing  Wendy's other basic potions. 

On top of that, it limits the potential of other unhealthy strats, like the instant revival of ghastly experience. It also creates more room to buff Team Spirit as the new way to keep Abby alive.

Finally, it creates additional synergy with wendys skills that can help source LGA - haunt for red hounds and graves.

Overall the change limits the unhealthy applications of the skill, and makes it more of a "last resort" than a default option.

2) Blessed sisturn 3 is incompatible with shadow abigail. 

The crux of this is to reward plays who do want to learn to kite Abigail  with additional damage while keeping her fragile. @Steorra's version of the rework is good, but it could be expanded to be more cohesive. I want to expand the sisturn decoration with 3 flower types. 

The deafult, tied to blessed sisturn 3 now requires MG. Its benefits are the player tag and 100% sisturn uptime, to compensate for ghastly experience powercreeping sisturns value. The aim of this is to provide Abigail with a form of pre rift survivability, for those who dislike using potions and havent unlocked gesalt Abby.

However, now the alignment perks are tied to filling the sisturn with alignment flowers. This prevents shadow Abby from gaining the player tag, while also providing a convenient method of cancelling Abigail out of her gesalt form (but not turning her to a gesalt, another compromise).

Starting with alignment 1, players can now fill a sisturn with the appropriate petals, providing the tiers planar defense. It also allows them to be affected by alignment potions preventing stockpiling & swapping. 

At alignment 3, players can activate the new form while the sisturn is aligned. To compensate for this new complication, shadow abby gets timers qol, while lumar abby gets the player tag also.

I dont think theres a solution that will perfectly sarisfy all camps, but this is a solution that doesnt alienate any of Wendy's playstyles as best I can tell.

And typo in the title... I hate mobile.

[thesooz9000]

2 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

@Steorra conceptualised a set of 2 compromises for the blessed sisturn and spectral cure-all, to attempt to provide a compromise that  everyone can tolerate. Heres my elaboration on those:

1) Spectral cure alls cost goes from one telltale heart to one life giving amulet.

This ones the most controversial, as its a direct nerf to Wendy's base kit, but I think its a necessary change.

While it doesn't remove the cheese potential of bosses (allowing the option for those who still want it), it brings the cost to the level of other cheese strats, like Woodies treeguard idol.

To compensate, I propose making spectral cure-all a super potion. This introduces the mechanic pre-rifts, and stops it overshadowing  Wendy's other basic potions. 

On top of that, it limits the potential of other unhealthy strats, like dodge spam with team spirit if the cooldown is lowered, or the instant revival of ghastly experience.

Finally, it creates additiinal synergy with wendys skills that can help source LGA - haunt for red hounds and graves.

2) Blessed sisturn 3 is incompatible with shadow abigail. 

The crux of this is to reward plays who do want to learn to kite Abigail  with additional damage while keeping her fragile. @Steorra's version of the rework is good, but it could be expanded to be more cohesive. I want to expand the sisturn decoration with 3 flower types. 

The deafult, tied to blessed sisturn 3 now requires MG. Its benefits are the player tag and 100% sisturn uptime, to compensate for ghastly experience powercreeping sisturns value. The aim of this is to provide Abigail with a form of pre rift survivability, for those who dislike using potions and havent unlocked gesalt Abby.

However, now the alignment perks are tied to filling the sisturn with alignment flowers. This prevents shadow Abby from gaining the player tag, while also providing a convenient method of cancelling Abigail out of her gesalt form (but not turning her to a gesalt, another compromise).

Starting with alignment 1, players can now fill a sisturn with the appropriate petals, providing the tiers planar defense. It also allows them to be affected by alignment potions preventing stockpiling & swapping. 

At alignment 3, players can activate the new form while the sisturn is aligned. To compensate for this new complication, shadow abby gets timers qol, while lumar abby gets the player tag also.

I dont think theres a solution that will perfectly sarisfy all camps, but this is a solution that doesnt alienate any of Wendy's playstyles as best I can tell.

And typo in the title... I hate mobile.

Hey, Agree with most suggestions, but I don't think nerfing spectral-cure all to make blessed sisturn III a more balanced option would be a good idea.

[WenericMember]

23 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

Hey, Agree with most suggestions, but I don't think nerfing spectral-cure all to make blessed sisturn III a more balanced option would be a good idea.

As i point out in the post, its not just Blessed Sisturn cure-all creates problems with. It also has unhealthy interactions with ghastly experience, and i wouldnt rule out similar strats if team spirit gets buffs.

Besides, in effect it less of a nerf and more of a rework - making it more of a hail mary by being more expensive and a super potion.

[DegenerateFurry]

14 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

1) Spectral cure alls cost goes from one telltale heart to one life giving amulet.

This is a terrible idea. It gimps everyone who's not using Sisturn III for no reason, and it goes way past the cost of Woodie's treeguard idols. Grinding for nightmare fuel and living logs for those takes time, but it doesn't at all compare to the insane gem grind you'd need to make an even remotely usable amount of Cure-Alls. Like, you'd need to spend half of a season grinding for Cure-Alls per boss fight even if you're not spamming them unless you had some stupidly powerful gem farm. 

If Klei's going to nerf Sisturn III's Spectral Cure-All synergy (which I don't think they should), it should just be by making Spectral Cure-All less effective on Abigail when she's out of her flower.

 

14 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

2) Blessed sisturn 3 is incompatible with shadow abigail. 

I can agree with this part. I think it's fair to have to pick between powerful damage and powerful tanking. 

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

To compensate, I propose making spectral cure-all a super potion. This introduces the mechanic pre-rifts, and stops it overshadowing  Wendy's other basic potions. 

On top of that, it limits the potential of other unhealthy strats, like dodge spam with team spirit if the cooldown is lowered, or the instant revival of ghastly experience.

pretty love this part as a compensation, I think this would helps a lot for solving the unpopular state of other basic potions 

 

10 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

While it doesn't remove the cheese potential of bosses (allowing the option for those who still want it), it brings the cost to the level of other cheese strats, like Woodies treeguard idol.

And thanks for explaining this! I think this is a much reasonable logic for preventing the Cure-All spamming in somehow.

 

12 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

The deafult, tied to blessed sisturn 3 now requires MG.

I'm sorry but due to some language barrier I guess I'm hardly to know what the meaning of "MG" here... 

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

pretty love this part as a compensation, I think this would helps a lot for solving the unpopular state of other basic potions 

 

And thanks for explaining this! I think this is a much reasonable logic for preventing the Cure-All spamming in somehow.

 

I'm sorry but due to some language barrier I guess I'm hardly to know what the meaning of "MG" here... 

Mourning glory, the item needed to make potions. Im proposing it cam be used to make an "eternal sisturn" with permanebt uptime and the player tag, in exchange for being mutually exclusive with the alignments

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

but it doesn't at all compare to the insane gem grind you'd need to make an even remotely usable amount of Cure-Alls.

Hmm, what about to make the recipe as a proportion like 1 Amulet = 3 Cure-All (before the skill effect) ? This may need more adjustment further but I guess this would be a method to solve your worries.

[Arcwell]

These feel like clunky solutions to say the least. I disagree with molding Wendy's base kit around a skill that not everyone will even use. There's precedent for this: briefly when the Winona update was in beta her machines could only be turned on by Winona players. This broke a lot of earlier set ups and understandably was reverted.

While I appreciate the effort to look for a middleground, at this point I'd just say let Klei cook. It's pretty clear there are strong opinions both opposing and in favor of the skill, and Klei will no doubt take both into consideration.

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

This is a terrible idea. It gimps everyone who's not using Sisturn III for no reason, and it goes way past the cost of Woodie's treeguard idols. Grinding for nightmare fuel and living logs for those takes time, but it doesn't at all compare to the insane gem grind you'd need to make an even remotely usable amount of Cure-Alls. Like, you'd need to spend half of a season grinding for Cure-Alls per boss fight even if you're not spamming them unless you had some stupidly powerful gem farm. 

 

I can agree with this part. I think it's fair to have to pick between powerful damage and powerful tanking. 

I did mention making cure-all a super potion to compensate. The other thing i was considering was buffing the potion skills - making strong brew effective on cure all. That way there was less needed per fight.

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Hmm, what about to make the recipe as a proportion like 1 Amulet = 3 Cure-All (before the skill effect) ? This may need more adjustment further but I guess this would be a method to solve your worries.

Also, you can now grind gems easily by using team spirit 3 on hounds, and graverobbing.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Mourning glory, the item needed to make potions. Im proposing it cam be used to make an "eternal sisturn" with permanebt uptime and the player tag, in exchange for being mutually exclusive with the alignments

This would be a great QoL change, I hope those who obsessed with shouting "OP!" wouldn't against this QoL idea...

Yes the current sisturn maintenance might be annoying in endgame and a permanent state for it is needed for QoL sake.

[WenericMember]

9 minutes ago, Arcwell said:

These feel like clunky solutions to say the least. I disagree with molding Wendy's base kit around a skill that not everyone will even use. There's precedent for this: briefly when the Winona update was in beta her machines could only be turned on by Winona players. This broke a lot of earlier set ups and understandably was reverted.

While I appreciate the effort to look for a middleground, at this point I'd just say let Klei cook. It's pretty clear there are strong opinions both opposing and in favor of the skill, and Klei will no doubt take both into consideration.

Thats true, but its either theorycraft compromises or scream at each other hoping klei listens to us (see the many threads in the last few days) and i greatly prefer todays constructive discussions over the previous days battle lines.

[Lardee]

22 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

1) Spectral cure alls cost goes from one telltale heart to one life giving amulet.

This ones the most controversial, as its a direct nerf to Wendy's base kit, but I think its a necessary change.

That's a pretty nuts change.  I would personally like this a lot, but that's probably only me. The difference between red gems and spider glands for someone like Wendy is astronomical.

Quote

On top of that, it limits the potential of other unhealthy strats, like dodge spam with team spirit if the cooldown is lowered, or the instant revival of ghastly experience.

Why is dodge spamming unhealthy?

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Lardee said:

That's a pretty nuts change.  I would personally like this a lot, but that's probably only me. The difference between red gems and spider glands for someone like Wendy is astronomical.

Why is dodge spamming unhealthy?

Not saying it is, but it could be depending on how they buff team spirit. 

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, Fitzee said:

TL;DR: Halve the effectiveness of Spectral Cure-All on an Abigail with Blessed Sisturn III's player-tag, then see how things go from there.

I would agree that to change the base kit of current game would goes a bit far, but I personally don't think to halve the Cure-All effectiveness is acceptable for some casual players. 

We already have the basic gameplay which just simply prepared massive armors and dumplings then just to kill a boss by pressing F with eating dumplings. I have no idea why its necessary to limit Cure-All spamming into an unachievable end.

[Steorra]

3 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Why is dodge spamming unhealthy?

Any spamming might be boring. On this side, dodge spamming have no difference with Cure-All spamming and dumplings spamming.

[thesooz9000]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Any spamming might be boring. On this side, dodge spamming have no difference with Cure-All spamming and dumplings spamming.

I don't understand? when abigail dodges, she can't attack at the same time, she goes in a straightline to where you clicked, timing when to have abigail dodge the attack whilst you also yourself dodge the attack is what makes it interesting and unique, spamming dodge doesn't really work.

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I would agree that to change the base kit of current game would goes a bit far, but I personally don't think to halve the Cure-All effectiveness is acceptable for some casual players. 

We already have the basic gameplay which just simply prepared massive armors and dumplings then just to kill a boss by pressing F with eating dumplings. I have no idea why its necessary to limit Cure-All spamming into an unachievable end.

Yeah. I think its somewhat fair to want that to exist for Wendy, but it should at least have a cost similar to other strats like treeguard idols.

 

4 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

Especially when a good amount of the playerbase doesn't have the capability to dodge-spam due to Team Spirit is still being unoptimized. 

I mean yeah, my point was the chamge would give the m more room to buff team spirit aggtessively.

[Koomin]

The removal of Shadow Abigail and the player tag from being available at the same time is the best part of these suggestions in my opinion since huge damage shouldn't come with great tanking, and it's pretty telling that all of the responses seem to also think the change is appropriate.

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, thesooz9000 said:

I don't understand? when abigail dodges, she can't attack at the same time, she goes in a straightline to where you clicked, timing when to have abigail dodge the attack whilst you also yourself dodge the attack is what makes it interesting and unique, spamming dodge doesn't really work.

just imagine such scenario - if we could bond the dodge command as "G" in our keyboard, we may just press "G" when our character dodging the boss attack. It's would be easy and become almost no different with Wilson style...

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

You literally agreed with my dodge command suggestion, even saying that it could have a very short cooldown given that you are paying attention to two characters at once instead of one in regards to dodging attacks. 

Though it has been awhile since you made that comment; did your opinion change since then?

No. I prefer QoL much more than "balance" sake. Game should be convenient first. Balance come later.

Eh. It might be convenience first, fun later, balance last for DST.

[YuRinshue]

There may be some details that need to be discussed, but in terms of direction, they are acceptable, and there are also many vocabulary words that I cannot translate, which makes my understanding of this suggestion somewhat vague.
When I use in-game words that may have ambiguous properties (influenced by culture), I will look for exclusive terms on the wiki to add to the article, which may help the group communicate more easily and easily.
By the way, I also have optimization ideas for other aspects of Wendy's skill tree and have written them in this post. But due to the popularity of conflicting posts, my posts are easily buried. So if you agree, I also want to do some promotion here, as it seems to have a more communicative atmosphere.

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, Fitzee said:

You literally agreed with my dodge command suggestion, even saying that it could have a very short cooldown given that you are paying attention to two characters at once instead of one in regards to dodging attacks. 

Though it has been awhile since you made that comment; did your opinion change since then?

Its all theorycrafting right now. I imagine dodge spam + cure all could cause problems yes. That said i think a dodge command is more healthy than cure all, which is why i proposed a rework 

2 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

There may be some details that need to be discussed, but in terms of direction, they are acceptable, and there are also many vocabulary words that I cannot translate, which makes my understanding of this suggestion somewhat vague.
When I use in-game words that may have ambiguous properties (influenced by culture), I will look for exclusive terms on the wiki to add to the article, which may help the group communicate more easily and easily.
By the way, I also have optimization ideas for other aspects of Wendy's skill tree and have written them in this post. But due to the popularity of conflicting posts, my posts are easily buried. So if you agree, I also want to do some promotion here, as it seems to have a more communicative atmosphere.

Go ahead, but please make sure the suggestions arent isolating any group of people.

Also, feel free to post words you dont understand and ill try to give more clear definitions

 

[YuRinshue]

Thank you for your generosity, and I hope you can give me an evaluation of my ideas. I am not afraid of others pointing out the problems in my ideas

 

[WenericMember]

9 minutes ago, YuRinshue said:

Thank you for your generosity, and I hope you can give me an evaluation of my ideas. I am not afraid of others pointing out the problems in my ideas

 

I think those ideas have solid foundation, I especially love ypur expansions to the pipspook lines.

That said, if you're having trouble translating, maybe try condensing your words? (I cant talk though) Large paragraphs dont read well when translated 

Adding a brief explanation of your ideas at the top may help.

[YuRinshue]

1 hour ago, WenericMember said:

This introduces the mechanic pre-rifts

 

 it creates additional synergy with wendys skills

 

 tied to blessed sisturn 3 now requires MG.

 powercreeping sisturns value.

 

 the alignment perks

are tied to filling the sisturn with alignment flowers. (but not turning her to a gesalt, another compromise).

alignment 1

It also allows them to be affected by alignment potions preventing stockpiling & swapping. 

At alignment 3, players can activate the new form while the sisturn is aligned.  shadow abby gets timers qol, 

I find it difficult to understand the meaning of these contents and how they bring about corresponding effects

7 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I think those ideas have solid foundation, I especially love ypur expansions to the pipspook lines.

That said, if you're having trouble translating, maybe try condensing your words? (I cant talk though) Large paragraphs dont read well when translated 

Adding a brief explanation of your ideas at the top may help.

Thank you for your recognition.
Regarding the length of the article. This may be a matter of personal writing habits. I am concerned that overly short text may lead to unnecessary misunderstandings and repetitive explanations, but too long paragraphs can also reduce the desire to read, which makes me feel conflicted.

 

And... Well, what does ypur mean?