Blessed Sisturn III is Way too Strong

[Lardee]

10 minutes ago, beepbeepbot said:

    Well, this actually involves some Klei design issues.    
    I'm not quite sure about your thoughts on Woodie's weaknesses. What do you think its weakness is? Not being able to use items while transforming, empty hunger at the end of transformation or something else?

Woodie's greatest weakness is his wereform's inability to use items. 

 

10 minutes ago, beepbeepbot said:

    Anyway, I'll say what I think about Klei's updated set of skill trees, and many skill trees have quite a few QoL aspects, such as the fact that Wortox can not be hostile by neutral creatures if it's “Nice” enough. Or, Woodie can not be forced to transform when the moon is full. Including eating statues won't minus blood and extending the duration of transformations, retain some hunger at the end of the transformation and so on. I think klei is trying to weaken their weaknesses. More or less. Can't deny it, can't it? And the same is true in the case of Wendy. They probably won't consider this (avoiding nerf the weakness). So Player tag was added.

Woodie's forced transformation needed to be optional due to moonstorms. The downsides of consuming idols were not a good change, but they are still inconsequential when compared to the wereform's inability to use items.

 

Spectral Cure All was already the option to weaken Wendy's weakness. Klei has made these far less costly. They also gave Gestalt Abigail. And none of this is relevant to the question: SHOULD Klei remove Wendy's weakness.

 

10 minutes ago, beepbeepbot said:

    I admit that your idea is good and can better bring out the characteristics of the character. But the problem is that they did not provide a satisfactory solution (in terms of bringing out the characteristics). Adding the Player tag is the best proof. Before the Player tag was added, it was difficult for a normal Abby to survive a boss fight. Commanding her is indeed a (and only) way to play, but it obviously requires a lot of practice.

This is not true. Some bosses are difficult, other bosses are easy. None of that is relevant. Commanding her was never the only way to play keep Abigail alive.

 

10 minutes ago, beepbeepbot said:

Bernie is another negative example. Its health is almost costless. You can just right-click it to make it full of health, and you can even mass-produce it. In short, that’s asking too much of Wendy. Not everyone has the energy to do that. Added player tag to add a floor for Wendies, that is, you can fight side by side with Abby, as long as you have enough medicine. Although this does not reflect more features, it at least provides new options

Comparing Bernie to Abigail is apples to oranges. If you want to nerf Abigail so that she doesn't do AoE, doesn't buff Wendy's attacks, doesn't attack as quickly and can't be controlled, then sure, give Abigail the player tag.

 

10 minutes ago, beepbeepbot said:

 So, my point is that since Klei has already weakened some of the character's weaknesses, they shouldn't stop at Wendy.... unless they can come up with a better solution, such as giving me more benefits or reducing the energy required to command Abby. Until a better solution comes out, I think it is inappropriate to directly remove the Player tag. This makes Wendy the same as before.
    Also, I think the biggest problem with the current skill tree is that it is boring, has no characteristics, and does not give me anything that catches my eye. Teamwork is the only branch I think is okay, although the inexplicable shared CD they gave is totally unreasonable.
    You will notice that my reply is quite late, which actually proves that I am tired. I still have trivial matters to deal with in real life for now, so I don’t know when the next reply will be. But if there is a chance, I hope that our discussion can continue.

Klei hasn't removed any character's major weakness with skill trees. Removing Wendy's in this manor would be unprecedented. It would be the equivalent of letting the Weremoose use items. Not that it even matters since we're not talking about what Klei would do. We're talking about what Klei SHOULD do. 

There already is a better solution: Spectral Cure All and Gestalt Abigail. The first doesn't remove her weakness, the second sort of does, but at the cost of her strength.

 

[Dingle]

Congrats on having this thread reach 6.8k views, and climbing.

That's now more views than the official 12-12 hotfix notes.

I heard that if you get over 10k views, Klei is legally obligated to send you a box of poutine via mail.

[RiceMilk]

All of your viewpoints are based on the premise that Wendy's weakness is that Abigail is easily killed.

But I completely disagree with this point.

 

I think Wendy's only weakness has always been '0.75 damage multiplier'. From the very beginning, Abigail was not a fragile character. What really caused Abigail to become increasingly fragile was version updates. The new version introduces increasingly difficult enemies, and player characters also receive corresponding powerful equipment to solve problems. But Abigail was left behind during the update process, and these equipment were of no help to Abigail.

 

Rather, the biggest problem that needs to be solved now is that Abigail's strength cannot keep up with the new monsters, which makes it increasingly difficult for Wendy to fulfill her duties as a pure combat character. I have always believed that no character should be defined as only appearing in the early/late stages of the game. There is still a lot of content that DST needs to update in the future, it's time to solve this problem.

 

My opinion on your two videos is:

 

If you think Abigail tank boss for too long, you can make it difficult for her to attract the boss's hatred, or find other solutions instead of removing the player tag.

 

The problem with drugs is not that they are difficult to obtain, but that they are cumbersome to operate and boring to obtain. Increasing production cannot solve the problem of boring acquisition methods, which has been discussed on forums.

[Lardee]

4 minutes ago, RiceMilk said:

All of your viewpoints are based on the premise that Wendy's weakness is that Abigail is easily killed.

But I completely disagree with this point.

 

I think Wendy's only weakness has always been '0.75 damage multiplier'. From the very beginning, Abigail was not a fragile character. What really caused Abigail to become increasingly fragile was version updates. The new version introduces increasingly difficult enemies, and player characters also receive corresponding powerful equipment to solve problems. But Abigail was left behind during the update process, and these equipment were of no help to Abigail.

 

Wendy was reworked at the end of 2020. By that time all the seasonal bosses were added and all the raid bosses except for Celestial Champion were added. Everyone knew Wendy as a character who's good against mobs but bad against bosses from even before then. Abigail was always considered fragile against bosses. It's got nothing to do with the updates.

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Rather, the biggest problem that needs to be solved now is that Abigail's strength cannot keep up with the new monsters, which makes it increasingly difficult for Wendy to fulfill her duties as a pure combat character. I have always believed that no character should be defined as only appearing in the early/late stages of the game. There is still a lot of content that DST needs to update in the future, it's time to solve this problem.

 

My opinion on your two videos is:

 

If you think Abigail tank boss for too long, you can make it difficult for her to attract the boss's hatred, or find other solutions instead of removing the player tag.

 

The problem with drugs is not that they are difficult to obtain, but that they are cumbersome to operate and boring to obtain. Increasing production cannot solve the problem of boring acquisition methods, which has been discussed on forums.

Abigail's strength can absolutely keep up with the new monsters. Wendy was never a pure combat character. Wendy was never defined as only appearing in the early stages of the game. If you're going to claim these kinds of things, you need to give examples.

Why would you make Abigail less likely to be attacked, but keep the player tag? That's adding an additional layer of survivability.

If you don't want to use potions, don't let Abigail get hit. If you don't want to learn how to do that, then you have a low-skill option to keep Abigail in the fight.

[RiceMilk]

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

Wendy was reworked at the end of 2020. By that time all the seasonal bosses were added and all the raid bosses except for Celestial Champion were added. Everyone knew Wendy as a character who's good against mobs but bad against bosses from even before then. Abigail was always considered fragile against bosses. It's got nothing to do with the updates.

In the community I am familiar with, it is generally believed that Wendy performs well when facing bosses.

1 hour ago, Lardee said:

Abigail's strength can absolutely keep up with the new monsters. Wendy was never a pure combat character. Wendy was never defined as only appearing in the early stages of the game. If you're going to claim these kinds of things, you need to give examples.

Why would you make Abigail less likely to be attacked, but keep the player tag? That's adding an additional layer of survivability.

If you don't want to use potions, don't let Abigail get hit. If you don't want to learn how to do that, then you have a low-skill option to keep Abigail in the fight.

In the community I am familiar with, everyone thinks Wendy is a pure combat character. If you don't think Wendy is a combat character, please tell me her character type. Can she quickly chop down trees/farm like some characters? And it is widely recognized that Abigail's strength cannot keep up with the new boss.

 

The additional survival ability is exactly what Abigail needs, and perhaps the player tag is not the only solution to this, but at least it is a solution.

 

The problem with potions is not 'learning how to use', but rather the hassle and boredom of using potions in battles. Combat characters should be more convenient than other characters during battles, rather than the opposite.

[Lardee]

1 minute ago, RiceMilk said:

In the community I am familiar with, it is generally believed that Wendy performs well when facing bosses.

If that's the case, then there's no reason to make her even stronger against bosses.

1 minute ago, RiceMilk said:

In the community I am familiar with, everyone thinks Wendy is a pure combat character. If you don't think Wendy is a combat character, please tell me her character type. Can she quickly chop down trees/farm like some characters? And it is widely recognized that Abigail's strength cannot keep up with the new boss.

 

The additional survival ability is exactly what Abigail needs, and perhaps the player tag is not the only solution to this, but at least it is a solution.

 

The problem with potions is not 'learning how to use', but rather the hassle and boredom of using potions in battles. Combat characters should be more convenient than other characters during battles, rather than the opposite.

She's also a support character. Her ability to farm spiders, monkeys, frogs and bees allows her to obtain vast amounts of resources that she can use to aid herself and others in survival. 

Why does she NEED that? 

There's a solution to not using potions: get good enough to avoid damaging Abigail. If you don't want to put in the effort, then you have a lower skill option of keeping Abigail alive. Wendy is absolutely more convenient than others IN battle.

[RiceMilk]

8 minutes ago, Lardee said:

If that's the case, then there's no reason to make her even stronger against bosses.

You misunderstood my meaning. I mean, everyone used to think Wendy should perform well when facing bosses, but this trait has changed recently.

17 minutes ago, Lardee said:

She's also a support character. Her ability to farm spiders, monkeys, frogs and bees allows her to obtain vast amounts of resources that she can use to aid herself and others in survival. 

Why does she NEED that? 

There's a solution to not using potions: get good enough to avoid damaging Abigail. If you don't want to put in the effort, then you have a lower skill option of keeping Abigail alive. Wendy is absolutely more convenient than others IN battle.

I have explained too many times why stronger survival is needed. At present, Abigail is too fragile when facing new bosses, and maintaining her requires complex operations, which violates the principle of convenience for combat characters.

 

Being able to kill frogs faster does not mean she is an auxiliary character, as many combat characters can also quickly kill these creatures. And it's not difficult to create a factory that automatically obtains these materials, which means even if you think it's Wendy's exclusive ability, it shouldn't be considered as occupying the majority of the ability.

 

Is Wendy more convenient than other characters in battle? At least within the scope of boss battles, I don't think so. Boss battles are the place where combat character abilities are most needed, and Wendy is currently not doing well here (especially compared to other combat characters). As for dealing with frogs? You also said that's what auxiliary characters need to do, not combat characters.

[Lardee]

3 minutes ago, RiceMilk said:

You misunderstood my meaning. I mean, everyone used to think Wendy should perform well when facing bosses, but this trait has changed recently.

I have explained too many times why stronger survival is needed. At present, Abigail is too fragile when facing new bosses, and maintaining her requires complex operations, which violates the principle of convenience for combat characters.

 

I have never heard anyone say that Wendy was good at killing bosses was the majority of opinion ever. But let's assume you're right. Which boss is Wendy unable to beat without the player tag?

Applying a potion to Abigail is in no way a complex operation, and there's never been a principle where combat characters don't require maintenance.

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Being able to kill frogs faster does not mean she is an auxiliary character, as many combat characters can also quickly kill these creatures. And it's not difficult to create a factory that automatically obtains these materials, which means even if you think it's Wendy's exclusive ability, it shouldn't be considered as occupying the majority of the ability.

 

Yeah, but Wolfgang doesn't do it nearly as well as her. And by this logic, basically everyone is a combat character. 

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Is Wendy more convenient than other characters in battle? At least within the scope of boss battles, I don't think so. Boss battles are the place where combat character abilities are most needed, and Wendy is currently not doing well here (especially compared to other combat characters). As for dealing with frogs? You also said that's what auxiliary characters need to do, not combat characters.

Based on what is she not doing well? She can hit as hard as Wolfgang and has free AoE. She's up there with all the other combat characters. Not that it even matters since characters don't have to be perfectly balanced in a PvE game.

6 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Um... I think immunity of full moon forced transformation and no penalties health (-20) and sanity(-15) for eating Idols pretty much removed the risk to Woodie. What are your talking the "really impactful weaknesses" that are left?  Is it that wereforms can't pick up things?

And also, Wendy still have x0.75 damage modifier.

The full moon forced transformation had to be removed because of the moonstorms.  -20 hp, -15 sanity is not a major weakness when the weremoose is immune to nightmare creatures and can regenerate that HP back.

The wereforms can't USE anything. That's the major weakness. Removing this would be like Klei making Abigail invincible.

[RiceMilk]

2 minutes ago, Lardee said:

I have never heard anyone say that Wendy was good at killing bosses was the majority of opinion ever. But let's assume you're right. Which boss is Wendy unable to beat without the player tag?

The Chinese community should be recognized as a community with a large number of heavy players and focus on combat. And Wendy's strong presence in the Chinese community during boss battles was a common view in the past.

Without a player tag, one can certainly defeat a boss. I can defeat any boss without summoning Abigail, but please note that DST is a high degree of freedom game, and of course, any character can defeat any boss. Therefore, just defeating boss does not mean everything is good.

 

10 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Yeah, but Wolfgang doesn't do it nearly as well as her. And by this logic, basically everyone is a combat character. 

This only indicates that whether one can quickly obtain frog legs is independent of whether he is a combat character.

10 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Applying a potion to Abigail is in no way a complex operation, and there's never been a principle where combat characters don't require maintenance.

Based on what is she not doing well? She can hit as hard as Wolfgang and has free AoE. She's up there with all the other combat characters. Not that it even matters since characters don't have to be perfectly balanced in a PvE game.

Combat characters may require maintenance, but they should not require more complicated maintenance than regular characters.

 

If balance is not necessary, why is Wendy not stronger than Wolfgang but weaker? What I am pursuing is not complete balance, but to give her the convenience and ability that a combat character should have.

[Lardee]

3 minutes ago, RiceMilk said:

The Chinese community should be recognized as a community with a large number of heavy players and focus on combat. And Wendy's strong presence in the Chinese community during boss battles was a common view in the past.

Without a player tag, one can certainly defeat a boss. I can defeat any boss without summoning Abigail, but please note that DST is a high degree of freedom game, and of course, any character can defeat any boss. Therefore, just defeating boss does not mean everything is good.

Okay then I'll be more specific: which boss can Wendy not keep Abigail alive against?

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This only indicates that whether one can quickly obtain frog legs is independent of whether he is a combat character.

Combat characters may require maintenance, but they should not require more complicated maintenance than regular characters.

I mean, that's what a farming character typically is considering even Wes can get frog legs.

Why should combat characters not require more complicated maintenance than regular characters?

 

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If balance is not necessary, why is Wendy not stronger than Wolfgang but weaker? What I am pursuing is not complete balance, but to give her the convenience and ability that a combat character should have.

She's weaker because balance isn't necessary. Combat characters don't have to be convenient. They simply have to be strong in a combat situation. Some combat characters are high skill, some are low skill. Wendy happens to be high skill. 

[Dingle]

Abigail is immortal against Armored Bearger, her worst matchup, as long as you spend 2 or 3 Cure Alls on the fight. No Team Spirit commands necessary.

Lardee posted this in another thread. With video!

 

[SilverSpoon]

40 minutes ago, Lardee said:

The full moon forced transformation had to be removed because of the moonstorms.  -20 hp, -15 sanity is not a major weakness when the weremoose is immune to nightmare creatures and can regenerate that HP back.

The wereforms can't USE anything. That's the major weakness. Removing this would be like Klei making Abigail invincible.

...Right? It was only after the skill tree that Waremoose was able to regenerate on its own, so it should have been a major weakness before that...
https://dontstarve.fandom.com/wiki/Woodie/Don't_Starve_Together?oldid=526901

Also, I agree that Wareform's can't use items is amajor weakness, however, I think the items you want to use when you're Waremoose are items that recover health. If Weremoose's natural health recovery eliminated the idle health penalty, didn't the skill tree alleviate that weakness to some extent? Just like the player tag this time. Abigail still dies even with the player tag.

[Debruh]

1 hour ago, SilverSpoon said:

Also, I agree that Wareform's can't use items is amajor weakness, however, I think the items you want to use when you're Waremoose are items that recover health. If Weremoose's natural health recovery eliminated the idle health penalty, didn't the skill tree alleviate that weakness to some extent? Just like the player tag this time. Abigail still dies even with the player tag

Woodie's weakness of forced transformation was removed in his Lunar Alignment 

Player tag is a general skill. Multiple people have suggested giving playertag/damage reduction to Wendy in her Lunar Alignment

Making it so that if you wanna a character weakness, you should have at least beat celestial champion.

[RussoDaFederal]

On 12/16/2024 at 6:50 AM, Fitzee said:

Alright, this has been bothering me long enough. 

Why is Wolfgang brought up often as a companion for Shadow Abigail? Is it because she deals double damage, or because her and Wendy can reach his levels in DPS?

I'd like the complete math of all possible scenarios, please, while also understanding that beefalos remove Wendy's downside already and shouldn't be the standard, and Cursed Vexation isn't an elixir that should be expected to be applied 24/7.

Wolfgang is (supposedly) the character with highest dps in the game. It's his whole gimmick. If we start comparing each character's dps we'd get nowhere, they can vary quite a lot. Lucky for you though, I like math. Let's calculate Wendy's dps and compare it to Wes (weakest), Wilson (average) and Wolfgang (strongest). And let's compare it to beefalo damage as well.

Let's also not use a specific weapon, and calculate it as a function y = f(x), y being the dps and x being the weapon damage. But! Planar damage will be excluded since it is not affected by multipliers. Which means late game dps somewhat converges among all characters. The calculation is pretty simple: character modifier * 2 (attacks twice per second) * x (weapon damage). Wendy's dps is slightly trickier to calculate because there are 2 extra modifiers: Abi's vex general effect (1.1) and Abi's vex for Wendy exclusively (1.4). They stack, turning Wendy's 0.75 multiplier into 0.75 * 1.4 * 1.1 = 1.155. I'm also going to consider Abi's night damage with and without the vex elixir and the murder modifier. The vex elixir, if I recall correctly, increases the 1.1 vex modifier to 1.2. And murder doubles Abi's damage.

Wes: 0.75 * 2 * x = 1.5x
Wilson: 1 * 2 * x = 2x
Wolfgang: 2 * 2 * x = 4x
Wendy: 0.75 * 1.4 * 1.1 * 2 * x + 40 = 2.31x + 40
Wendy w/ vex & murder: 0.75 * 1.4 * 1.2 * 2 * x + 80 = 2.52x + 80

As you can see in the graphic above, the intersection point between Wolfgang's dps and Wendy's dps with all possible bonuses is around (54, 216), which means Wolfgang only surpasses Wendy's dps when he's using a weapon with 54 damage or more. A ham bat. At that point they'll have roughly the same dps. Sure, Wendy's bonuses don't last forever, but you probably want them to last for the whole fight if you're facing a challenging boss. But remember what I said about planar damage? It isn't affected by any modifiers at all. Which means Wendy always surpasses Wolfgang when using weapons that deal planar damage, since the highest physical damage inflicted by a planar weapon is 41.8 (shadow reaper with all bonuses applied), still way below 54. And even when Abi is doing just regular night damage without any bonuses, she's still pretty strong. Not as strong as Wolfgang, but pretty strong. If you're curious, the intersection between Wolfgang dps and non buffed Wendy dps is around (24, 95). Finally, I said I would calculate beefalo damage too.

Wendy's dps with a beefalo and base Abi, assuming the beefalo is ornery with a nightmare saddle (because there's no reason to go lower): 34 * 2 * 1.4 * 1.1 + 40 + 18 * 2 (18 planar damage) = 180.72. Still lower than Wendy with a dark sword (197.08). For the record, war saddle ornery dps with Abigail (no buffs) is 271. Wolfgang's dps with a dark sword is 272. So Wendy with a beefalo easily surpasses Wolfgang with buffs (murder and vex elixir). Nightmare saddle dps with all the buffs is 230.24. I'm not considering planar entity protection, of course, cause that is overly complicated and it's obvious that the damage will only get higher with a planar weapon (or saddle in this case). The nightmare saddle still has lower damage than the shadow reaper either way, which is close to dark sword damage but some of its damage is planar. That's why I hate fighting with beefalo. When I tame a beefalo, I do it for the speed it provides, not the damage. Sure, you're as strong as Wolfgang (pre rift) if you tame an ornery beefalo and get a war saddle, but I find the whole process tedious and I hate ornery because you gotta keep feeding them. Anyway, I hope this helps. I'm not even trying to prove a point here, just providing some useful data.

[Lardee]

3 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

...Right? It was only after the skill tree that Waremoose was able to regenerate on its own, so it should have been a major weakness before that...
https://dontstarve.fandom.com/wiki/Woodie/Don't_Starve_Together?oldid=526901

No, not being able to passively regenerate HP on its own isn't a weakness for the Weremoose any more than it's a weakness for other characters.

3 hours ago, SilverSpoon said:

Also, I agree that Wareform's can't use items is amajor weakness, however, I think the items you want to use when you're Waremoose are items that recover health. If Weremoose's natural health recovery eliminated the idle health penalty, didn't the skill tree alleviate that weakness to some extent? Just like the player tag this time. Abigail still dies even with the player tag.

Healing is probably the biggest factor, but not being able to use items the the panflute, ice staffs, magi, walking cane, enlightened crown and things like that are almost as bad when it comes to fighting.

The weremoose's natural recover would only eliminate the idle penalty if you were skilled enough to avoid damage with the weremoose until he could recover all of that lost HP. That's why the regen is actually a good skill: because if you're bad at using Woodie, you'll be forced to exit the wereform quicker which means you don't regenerate as much HP. If you're good at using Woodie and can stay in the fight longer, then you'll end up gaining about 120 HP over the course of the transformation. It rewards you for being good and punishes you for being bad.

[SilverSpoon]

5 minutes ago, Lardee said:

No, not being able to passively regenerate HP on its own isn't a weakness for the Weremoose any more than it's a weakness for other characters.

I don't think so, before Skill tree and "The Weremoose II", I think it was a really fatal weakness. like as Wormwood was totally not recommended for beginners.

32 minutes ago, Lardee said:

The weremoose's natural recover would only eliminate the idle penalty if you were skilled enough to avoid damage with the weremoose until he could recover all of that lost HP. That's why the regen is actually a good skill: because if you're bad at using Woodie, you'll be forced to exit the wereform quicker which means you don't regenerate as much HP. If you're good at using Woodie and can stay in the fight longer, then you'll end up gaining about 120 HP over the course of the transformation. It rewards you for being good and punishes you for being bad.

Pre Skill tree, Woody had to be precise between transformations, run from the battlefield, and possibly instantly put on armor and do emergency healing. Now he doesn't need to do that at all. Being Moose doubles as healing, so he just eats the next Moose idol (if beginner, possibly eat one or two).

 

[Lardee]

35 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I don't think so, before Skill tree and "The Weremoose II", I think it was a really fatal weakness. like as Wormwood was totally not recommended for beginners.

Not being able to heal with items is a weakness. Not being able to heal passively isn't because no one can do that by default.

35 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

Pre Skill tree, Woody had to be precise between transformations, run from the battlefield, and possibly instantly put on armor and do emergency healing. Now he doesn't need to do that at all. Being Moose doubles as healing, so he just eats the next Moose idol (if beginner, possibly eat one or two).

 

The weremoose only doubles as healing if you are skillful enough to allow his healing to outpace the damage you are taking. That's rewarding the player for skill.

Plus, the main point is that the Weremoos's major weakness is broader than healing. It's his inability to use any item or equipment.

[somethin]

I still don't to see the people who says that Abigail always dies to bosses provide the bosses that she dies to. Off the top of my head the only few that can give her trouble is just cc phase 3 and lunar Bearger which the new potion and command skill already remedy that.

[Dingle]

10 hours ago, somethin said:

I still don't to see the people who says that Abigail always dies to bosses provide the bosses that she dies to. Off the top of my head the only few that can give her trouble is just cc phase 3 and lunar Bearger which the new potion and command skill already remedy that.

Those two, regular Bearger, Nightmare Werepig is the usual list.

[Yifei_]

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Nightmare Werepig

No. Although I believe that Abby's survival ability need improvement, Abby currently has no survival issues when facing Nightmare Werepig. You should really use Wendy to cooperate with Abby to defeat each boss.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Yifei_ said:

No. Although I believe that Abby's survival ability need improvement, Abby currently has no survival issues when facing Nightmare Werepig. You should really use Wendy to cooperate with Abby to defeat each boss.

I was repeating the usual list people say. I've seen NMWP get killed with Abigail out (also CC phase 3).

[Yifei_]

22 minutes ago, Dingle said:

I was repeating the usual list people say. I've seen NMWP get killed with Abigail out (also CC phase 3).

You can check out this video of mine; I just finished a fight of nightmare werepig, not on the beta version. Abby doesn't really face much survival pressure when fighting Nightmare Werepig; the real pressure comes from boss fights like BQ, AF, CC, and others.

 

 

 

[RiceMilk]

20 hours ago, Lardee said:

Okay then I'll be more specific: which boss can Wendy not keep Abigail alive against?

I mean, that's what a farming character typically is considering even Wes can get frog legs.

Why should combat characters not require more complicated maintenance than regular characters?

 

She's weaker because balance isn't necessary. Combat characters don't have to be convenient. They simply have to be strong in a combat situation. Some combat characters are high skill, some are low skill. Wendy happens to be high skill. 

Whether Abigail can survive is not a suitable criterion for judgment. The use of Abigail to give Wendy an advantage/convenience in combat compared to ordinary characters is the criterion for judgment. It is obvious that Wendy cannot reach the level of other combat characters in this matter now.

 

Combat characters do not require more complex maintenance than regular characters. They often defeat bosses faster and suffer less damage compared to other characters.

 

Wendy was not a highly skilled character from the beginning, and it was the high numerical value of the new boss that made Abigail vulnerable, which is itself a problem. If you insist that Wendy is a highly skilled character, you can cast a vote, and I don't want to discuss this.

 

If you think there is no balance and no need for comparison, then you have no objective standard for judging what abilities a character should receive. It's better to adopt my standards than to have no standards: reaching the abilities and portability of other combat characters, at least this is fair and referenced.

[Yifei_]

25 minutes ago, Yifei_ said:

Abby doesn't really face much survival pressure when fighting Nightmare Werepig; the real pressure comes from boss fights like BQ, AF, CC, and others.

Addendum: I think that if, when discussing the topic of "improving Abby's survival capabilities," one is not even clear about which bosses pose survival pressure, it would be better to refrain from participating in the discussion for now and instead go and test it out in the game.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, Yifei_ said:

Addendum: I think that if, when discussing the topic of "improving Abby's survival capabilities," one is not even clear about which bosses pose survival pressure, it would be better to refrain from participating in the discussion for now and instead go and test it out in the game.

I killed bq in a real game yesterday. Used 0 healing due to Wendy's new stuff.

Can take that one off the list for "survival threat".