5 reasons about why Abi need more survival ability. Stop gate keeping for Wendy.

[Steorra]

I know some of you could easily kite Abi when fighting a lunar bearger. But I guess I should clarify something for you.

 

1. Not everyone play a single-player world (it means there would have unexpected latency). Current Abi would easily die in 3 second when the latency happens. You must consider how a character performed under latency. If latency happen then Wendy become Wes, this is not fun.

 

2. Not everyone have enough skill to kite Abi in some particular bosses combat. For some bosses like lunar bearger, Abi management in some particular bosses combat would be a high skill needed for average players.

 

3.Not everyone enjoying the summon-unsummon spamming. Not everyone enjoying the elixirs spamming.

This may only needed in CC combat for high skilled players. But not everyone have such skills. Don't gate keeping for your own sense of superiority.

 

4. Current team spirit command is still hardly to manage. Even it get improvement in future, suddenly death of Abi would be still frustrating for average players. Spamming ghastly and cure-all elixirs for learning the kite skill is pain and boring.

 

5. To make Abi have more survival ability means not to make Abi have same tanky ability like BERNIE!. They are not same thing.

 

[djturner]

If you don't like a character's drawback, that character is not for you. That's not a gatekeep.

[Sacco]

1) Lag can happen, if we want to balance the game towards lag then we should revise a ton of features.

2) The average player doesn't fight armored bearger or even otehr end game bosses.

3) That's the thing... not everyone, someone though does enjoy it, a character can't be enjoyed by everyone.

4) If actively helping abi to not take damage is boring then lunar abi pre nerf was ONLY FUN...

5) More survivability means she soaks up more damage or manages to not take manage, therefore tankier.

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, djturner said:

If you don't like a character's drawback, that character is not for you. That's not a gatekeep.

That is gatekeeping and double standard.

So for now Wortox has ability for de-monster, Woodie has ability to stop shadow creatures harassment or to stop that annoying lunar transformation, Winona has ability to relocate her all devices. I guess you would say all of these are not a buff for their "drawback"?

4 minutes ago, Sacco said:

1) Lag can happen, if we want to balance the game towards lag then we should revise a ton of features.

2) The average player doesn't fight armored bearger or even otehr end game bosses.

3) That's the thing... not everyone, someone though does enjoy it, a character can't be enjoyed by everyone.

4) If actively helping abi to not take damage is boring then lunar abi pre nerf was ONLY FUN...

5) More survivability means she soaks up more damage or manages to not take manage, therefore tankier.

1. Not every characters would lose their all special advantage due to latency. Why Wendy should? Sounds more like because of hate.

2. Ok, let me fix it into "average players of who have ability to step into post-rift endgame"

3. If you enjoy to spamming a thing, you could still spamming them after your character got some buff. This won't stop your fun.

4. I don't know what relation here from your words.

5. You ofc could say that "if Abi got 1 extra HP, she is become tankier".

[Mysterious box]

8 minutes ago, Steorra said:

That is gatekeeping and double standard.

So for now Wortox has ability for de-monster, Woodie has ability to stop shadow creatures harassment or to stop that annoying lunar transformation, Winona has ability to relocate her all devices. I guess you would say all of these are not a buff for their "drawback"?

Woodie once again was needed due to the uncontrollable nature or his transformations paired with wickerbottom and lunar storms.

Wortox gets increased downside in other aspects as compensation

Winona not being able to move her machines was like if abigial couldn't leave her altar and you had to build one in each area you wanted to use her.

Wendy didn't get additional downsides while more or less completely removing her true downsides.

They removed the cooldown on Abigial summons and now there's a potion that removes the consequences of death.

[djturner]

If Wortox "de-monsters" he loses more sanity when eating souls and still has penalties to eating normal food as usual.

Woodie still has sanity/hunger costs to transforming and cannot use conventional weapons in any of his forms.

Winona still has her annoying "craft/build slower when half hunger or less" thing that you can do nothing about, and a hunger cost to crafting anything.

Wendy on the other hand has exactly one weakness. She deals 75% damage when Abigail is not fighting her target. That's it. The only times that comes into play? Against pure Shadow monsters and in fights where Abigail goes down. As to the latter, we're getting plenty of new tools to help keep Abigail upright or to revive her at max capacity if she goes down. In my opinion, this is an appropriate amount of power increase for a character that is already strong and is already immensely popular/played.

[ThiEErren]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

That is gatekeeping and double standard.

So for now Wortox has ability for de-monster, Woodie has ability to stop shadow creatures harassment or to stop that annoying lunar transformation, Winona has ability to relocate her all devices. I guess you would say all of these are not a buff for their "drawback"?

The disadvantages you mention for other characters are situational and usually avoidable without the need for a skill tree. What you're proposing is to have Wendy's main disadvantage removed without any apparent reason.

[Sacco]

7 minutes ago, Steorra said:

1. Not every characters would lose their all special advantage due to latency. Why Wendy should? Sounds more like because of hate.

2. Ok, let me fix it into "average players of who have ability to step into post-rift endgame"

3. If you enjoy to spamming a thing, you could still spamming them after your character got some buff. This won't stop your fun.

4. I don't know what relation here from your words.

5. You ofc could say that "if Abi got 1 extra HP, she is become tankier".

1) Every chracter gets worse with law latency.

2) Ok still, wendy has to have some dowsides.

3) So you're saying to make abi better so you have to spam less commands? I don't get it sorry.

4) Pain and boring is to watch lunar abi fight or kill a bunch of animals and watch abi destroy bosses.

5) Yes, but technically no. Making abi tankier means that she has more survival abilities, THEREFORE MAKING HER LESS SUSCEPTIBLE TO DAMAGE.

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Woodie once again was needed due to the uncontrollable nature or his transformations paired with wickerbottom and lunar storms.

Wortox gets increased downside in other aspects as compensation

Winona not being able to move her machines was like if abigial couldn't leave her altar and you had to build one in each area you wanted to use her.

Wendy didn't get additional downsides while more or less completely removing her true downsides.

For Wortox, it's obviously that to become de-monster is a QoL change for endgame. I have no idea what situation for your endgame would be lacking foods.

And whatever the example you give, the simply truth is Winona has a true drawback about her machine mobility before, but after the skill tree this drawback has completed deleted.

Last, to increase Abi's survival ability won't means "completely removing downsides". That's depend on the amounts.

8 minutes ago, djturner said:

If Wortox "de-monsters" he loses more sanity when eating souls and still has penalties to eating normal food as usual.

Woodie still has sanity/health costs to transforming and cannot use conventional weapons in any of his forms.

Winona still has her annoying "craft/build slower when half hunger or less" thing that you can do nothing about, and a hunger cost to crafting anything.

Wendy still have 0.75 damage modify when facing shadow creatures even Abi become invisible.

It seems your logic started to against yourself.

8 minutes ago, ThiEErren said:

The disadvantages you mention for other characters are situational and usually avoidable without the need for a skill tree. What you're proposing is to have Wendy's main disadvantage removed without any apparent reason.

So you was hint that Winona has no ability to move her machines is not a main disadvantage? Wow.

[djturner]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Last, to increase Abi's survival ability won't means "completely removing downsides". That's depend on the amounts.

But that's just it, we're already talking about amounts. They have increased Abi's survivability, something I also wanted them to do with her tree. She has better controls, some planar defense, can enter combat at double health, farming health pots is quicker, and if all else fails, you can instantly restore her to level 3 if you mess up. And if all that isn't enough, whatever else you want to say about it, Lunar Abigail IS way easier to keep alive if that's your objective, but the tradeoff in DPS (at least relative to Shadow) is a must in order to compensate.

You're not saying they haven't buffed her survivability at all, you're saying they haven't gone far enough, but the point is if they go too far with it, she's essentially a character with no downside other than a .75 multiplier against pure shadow enemies, which are very niche (and incidentally is another thing I keep seeing people want removed).

[ThiEErren]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

So you was hint that Winona has no ability to move her machines is not a main disadvantage? Wow.

?? That's just a QoL improvement that doesn't change the character's core mechanics; it only saves resources.
It doesn't compare at all to asking for a buff or a rework of abilities.

[Steorra]

8 minutes ago, Sacco said:

1) Every chracter gets worse with law latency.

2) Ok still, wendy has to have some dowsides.

3) So you're saying to make abi better so you have to spam less commands? I don't get it sorry.

4) Pain and boring is to watch lunar abi fight or kill a bunch of animals and watch abi destroy bosses.

5) Yes, but technically no. Making abi tankier means that she has more survival abilities, THEREFORE MAKING HER LESS SUSCEPTIBLE TO DAMAGE.

1. Get worse means not lose main advantage. Stop equivocation.

2. Is this means 0.75 damage modify for shadow creatures is not a downside?

3. Spamming commands is not as same as regular commanding. Stop equivocation.

4. Could you should us how exactly to watch abi destroy bosses by only kill a bunch of animals? From here you logic seems only based on your own illusion.

5. You'd better to recheck your basis logic.

[Xplan]

4 minutes ago, djturner said:

If Wortox "de-monsters" he loses more sanity when eating souls and still has penalties to eating normal food as usual.

Woodie still has sanity/health costs to transforming and cannot use conventional weapons in any of his forms.

Winona still has her annoying "craft/build slower when half hunger or less" thing that you can do nothing about, and a hunger cost to crafting anything.

Wendy on the other hand has exactly one weakness. She deals 75% damage when Abigail is not fighting her target. That's it. The only times that comes into play? Against pure Shadow monsters and in fights where Abigail goes down. As to the latter, we're getting plenty of new tools to help keep Abigail upright or to revive her at max capacity if she goes down. In my opinion, this is an appropriate amount of power increase for a character that is already strong and is already immensely popular/played.

Half of the skills are about squeezing elixirs. Almost all of the elixirs and Team spirit are trying to help Abi survive.
Nothing really new, the whole skill tree is lending us new tools to fix the same old problems. 

Thank you for making this clear. The skill tree looks hilarious and corpulent now. 

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, djturner said:

 some planar defense, can enter combat at double health, farming health pots is quicker, and if all else fails, you can instantly restore her to level 3 if you mess up. And if all that isn't enough, whatever else you want to say about it

Yes, what I keep above are not enough, they are completely useless and need rework. And to delete these useless skills is a necessary "balance" as you expect

9 minutes ago, ThiEErren said:

?? That's just a QoL improvement that doesn't change the character's core mechanics; it only saves resources.
It doesn't compare at all to asking for a buff or a rework of abilities.

QoL change is not means main disadvantage would never relative with QoL.

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

For Wortox, it's obviously that to become de-monster is a QoL change for endgame. I have no idea what situation for your endgame would be lacking foods.

What endgame advantage is there when people don't even use non character exclusive followers? People are already going out of their way ro avoid becoming nice.

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

And whatever the example you give, the simply truth is Winona has a true drawback about her machine mobility before, but after the skill tree this drawback has completed deleted.

That wasn't a downside it wasn't even advertised as such it was just a pointless inconvenience.

8 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Last, to increase Abi's survival ability won't means "completely removing downsides". That's depend on the amounts.

It does her downsides are doesn't hit hard well she has a damage multiplier that makes her one of the heavier hitters due to abigail. Her other downside was that she had to wait multiple days to summon her if she died that was removed. Now she also has a potion that nullifies the penalty of death. But even more still you want to give her more survivability? Where is her downside then when does it come into play?

[Steorra]

9 minutes ago, ThiEErren said:

it only saves resources.

To increase Abi's duration would only save resources as well.

Time is a resources, whatever you use your time to collect resources for Winona machine, or to collect mourning glorious for spamming elixirs, they are same.

[Sacco]

6 minutes ago, Steorra said:

1. Get worse means not lose main advantage. Stop equivocation.

2. Is this means 0.75 damage modify for shadow creatures is not a downside?

3. Spamming commands is not as same as regular commanding. Stop equivocation.

4. Could you should us how exactly to watch abi destroy bosses by only kill a bunch of animals? From here you logic seems only based on your own illusion.

5. You'd better to recheck your basis logic.

 You beat me ):

[RiceMilk]

For maintaining Abigail's survival during battles with certain bosses, what matters is not skill, but experience. Many games have the function of operating multiple units, and the skill requirements of this game are much simpler than them, but the experience of operating Abigail is very poor. When you frequently do this in a battle with very low fault tolerance, the experience is even worse. Even if I could do it, I wouldn't want to do it.

19 minutes ago, Sacco said:

1) Lag can happen, if we want to balance the game towards lag then we should revise a ton of features.

2) The average player doesn't fight armored bearger or even otehr end game bosses.

3) That's the thing... not everyone, someone though does enjoy it, a character can't be enjoyed by everyone.

4) If actively helping abi to not take damage is boring then lunar abi pre nerf was ONLY FUN...

5) More survivability means she soaks up more damage or manages to not take manage, therefore tankier.

Average players may not be able to encounter an armored bear, but we must ensure that they have a suitable experience when fighting against an armored bear.

Your imagination of enhancing Abigail's survival ability is different from ours. In this state, Abigail may not be able to attract hatred, or she can transfer the damage she receives to Wendy. In short, there are many ways to improve Abigail's survival ability while preventing her from becoming a tank.

28 minutes ago, djturner said:

If you don't like a character's drawback, that character is not for you. That's not a gatekeep.

15 minutes ago, djturner said:

If Wortox "de-monsters" he loses more sanity when eating souls and still has penalties to eating normal food as usual.

Woodie still has sanity/health costs to transforming and cannot use conventional weapons in any of his forms.

Winona still has her annoying "craft/build slower when half hunger or less" thing that you can do nothing about, and a hunger cost to crafting anything.

Wendy on the other hand has exactly one weakness. She deals 75% damage when Abigail is not fighting her target. That's it. The only times that comes into play? Against pure Shadow monsters and in fights where Abigail goes down. As to the latter, we're getting plenty of new tools to help keep Abigail upright or to revive her at max capacity if she goes down. In my opinion, this is an appropriate amount of power increase for a character that is already strong and is already immensely popular/played.

Firstly, Wendy's weakness was not 'Abigail is prone to death' from the very beginning. The reason for this is that the enemy has become stronger, and the player character has obtained various new equipment to fight against the enemy, but Abigail is stuck in place.

Secondly, this is not a game of comparing whose shortcomings are more serious, Wilson is already the answer. You can try to think from other perspectives, such as: What can this character do that other characters cannot do? What special assistance can this role provide to the team?

 

[Mysterious box]

How about a compromise abigial becomes more durable but now requires resources to upkeep her?

I mean on base abigial by the way as she shouldn't be so free if that's the case.

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

What endgame advantage is there when people don't even use non character exclusive followers? People are already going out of their way ro avoid becoming nice.

1. You don't use won't means the follower help is meaningless. This DO increase Wortox's potential DPS.

2. Even you don't use followers, this is still a HUGE QoL change. Not everyone living in their own base without any pig house.

7 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

That wasn't a downside it wasn't even advertised as such it was just a pointless inconvenience.

So the double standard for different characters start from one's narcissim doesn't it? It seems you think you have the only right to define what is a true downside for a character.

[djturner]

Just now, RiceMilk said:

Firstly, Wendy's weakness was not 'Abigail is prone to death' from the very beginning. The reason for this is that the enemy has become stronger, and the player character has obtained various new equipment to fight against the enemy, but Abigail is stuck in place.

Secondly, this is not a game of comparing whose shortcomings are more serious, Wilson is already the answer. You can try to think from other perspectives, such as: What can this character do that other characters cannot do? What special assistance can this role provide to the team?

 

The rules of Wendy got thrown out the window when Vex got added. "Doesn't hit very hard" is the weakness. If that's only ever an issue for her when she voluntarily dismisses Abigail, that's not much of a weakness. That means in order for her .75 multiplier to come up, Abigail needs to be unavailable from time to time, whether that's because it's a boss fight that uniquely counters her, or that's a shadow enemy she can't interact with. That's her only weakness, and those are the only two situations it can actually come into play. Therefore, her design must be such that they can actually happen.

And I would certainly argue that this game, from a design perspective, is definitely about shortcomings as much as it is about powers. Every character is supposed to have strengths and weaknesses, sans Wilson who (basically) exists without any weaknesses, and Wes who (basically) exists without any strengths. That's been a fundamental part of picking survivors, mastering them, comparing them, and the like, since the single player game.

[Steorra]

10 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

It does her downsides are doesn't hit hard well she has a damage multiplier that makes her one of the heavier hitters due to abigail. Her other downside was that she had to wait multiple days to summon her if she died that was removed. Now she also has a potion that nullifies the penalty of death. But even more still you want to give her more survivability? Where is her downside then when does it come into play?

You may to ask the designer to delete that stupid Ghastly Elixir, I accept to completely delete this as a sacrifice for buffing Abi's duration.

Guess that how many of us who asking to buff Abi's survival, would do really care about a stupid "level-up" elixir?

[Sikers]

I would argue what we really need is improving the abilities we currently have, insetd of adding new one. Unyielding Draught and Distilled Vengeance are useless for both Abi and Wendy with Wreath, Team Spirt I  is just worse then unsumonging Abi and extra hp from Blessed Sisturn is alright, but 4 skill point is too much, imo
 

[RiceMilk]

14 minutes ago, djturner said:

The rules of Wendy got thrown out the window when Vex got added. "Doesn't hit very hard" is the weakness. If that's only ever an issue for her when she voluntarily dismisses Abigail, that's not much of a weakness. That means in order for her .75 multiplier to come up, Abigail needs to be unavailable from time to time, whether that's because it's a boss fight that uniquely counters her, or that's a shadow enemy she can't interact with. That's her only weakness, and those are the only two situations it can actually come into play. Therefore, her design must be such that they can actually happen.

And I would certainly argue that this game, from a design perspective, is definitely about shortcomings as much as it is about powers. Every character is supposed to have strengths and weaknesses, sans Wilson who (basically) exists without any weaknesses, and Wes who (basically) exists without any strengths. That's been a fundamental part of picking survivors, mastering them, comparing them, and the like, since the single player game.

Before discussing 0.75, it is important to clarify one thing: Wendy is a combat character who has no additional abilities beyond combat.

 

Therefore, Wendy needs to be significantly stronger in combat than characters who are ineffective in combat.

 

The problem now is that too many scenarios with 0.75 have occurred. More and more bosses are making it difficult for Abigail to survive. I don't think any character should be considered to only appear in the early/late stages, so this is a serious issue for Wendy. I hope everyone can understand that Abigail has fallen behind in the version update.

 

Of course, you may not necessarily agree with my viewpoint, as there are many ideas about whether Wendy is strong or weak.

 

As for the advantages and disadvantages, I certainly believe that they need to be considered simultaneously. Compared to other combat characters horizontally, strongmen need to exercise and prepare a lot of potatoes, while Valkyrie's weakness is that she cannot be a vegetarian. They will not encounter any problems during critical moments of battle.

[Mysterious box]

29 minutes ago, Steorra said:

1. You don't use won't means the follower help is meaningless. This DO increase Wortox's potential DPS.

2. Even you don't use followers, this is still a HUGE QoL change. Not everyone living in their own base without any pig house.

1. Don't lie everyone knows non character specific followers are useless in almost every boss fight.

2. This is an exaggeration you act like moving pig houses is unheard of.

29 minutes ago, Steorra said:

So the double standard for different characters start from one's narcissim doesn't it? It seems you think you have the only right to define what is a true downside for a character.

Double standard eh? So if that level of inconvenience is a downside surely your not a hypocrite and will push for Abigail's 3 day cooldown and blood sacrifice mechanic to return right? I mean by your logic that was a core downside no?

Speaking of narcissism making assumptions on what the devs intended as a downside based on your own standards is the peak of it.