Characters limitations are regressive and I see only 2 ways to "fix" this.

[Swiyss]

First of all this is not bait. It's genuine concern.

Say I'm a new DST players, and I discover that the game is way harder than I thought it was. I learn myself to fight and evolve into the game's knowledge until I'm confident enought to choose a character to be my favorite.

So then I try every character and find the limitations of every single one of them. And none of them attracts me. However I love the game. So I decide to main wilson, which is the closest character to being "neutral". 

Time passes and I realize that Klei released a skin for wigfrid. Oh great, it looks wonderful, maybe I'll make her my main. Let's see :

1. I can't eat meat
2. I have some songs to buff my fights
3. I have an innate fighting system with fighting equipments as well
4. The ability to resist knockback and dodge stuff
5. And some minor beefalo buffs

I'm somewhat fine with that, not eating veggies will mean I'll skip completely on a whole farming spectrum of the game, with a bunch of recipes that I'll probably never get to experience because of it. Hmm.. It feels kinda wrong to switch to other characters just to cook and eat some minor recipes. This doesn't feel right. The upside of playing Wigfrid will never counter the downside of not being able to experience farming (since it's pointless) and cooking veggies. I'm forced to play other characters to fullfill that immersion.

If I really wanna eat veggies, I'll have to either mod the game (which will make me feel like a cheater, destroying my immersion) or not play wigfrid..

The reality is that.. I'll probably not play wigfrid for long. I might make a world and play 1 thousand days with her, but soon enough it'll get to the point where some veggies are more useful than some meats. And I'll eventually decide to change characters.. for good.

This problem is one of the reasons why so many people stop playing Don't Starve and Don't Starve Together. This is why this game is more of a "once in a month" or "one experience and then never again" type of game. And even if I didn't do a documented scientific research about it, I think 9 personal friends + some random steam reviews might be able to prove this argument a bit better. Some people like wilson for who he is, but find his kit very boring when their eyes reach other characters.

Spoiler

Now, there're also so many rpgs with the ability to make your character the way you want, but most of them also fall into the issue of not being unique. Reality is that, the chances of someone choosing the exact eyes that you're also choosing in Elden Ring is also possible, breaking immersion. But these games are mostly played to be experienced, and then never again. Sad to say that I wanted to experience DST until my last breath, but I'm not even sure if the game will exist until then. Klei makes an amazing job making clothes unique and beautiful in their own way, every set can be mixed and appreciated. I can always create a new world of DST, and it will always be a unique seed, this is a jackpot for long term gaming. I found myself not playing this game as much as I wanted too, and that's because I wanted to wait for wx-78's skill tree. Right now I'll try not to lose myself too much into waiting for it to not be dissapointed if it doesn't meet my expectations. You can definitely make a unique Elden ring character, don't get me wrong, but it will never be a new world, for that, DST is a plus for me. There are also a bunch of these mmorpgs that promise a unique experience.. But it's all fake, an illusion, there will always be someon richer, skilled, better looking and that started before you in those games. It's a competition that happens only in your mind. Because if the real fun is the friends we make along the way of creating a guild and experiencing the game, then I'll just be better spending my time talking to random people in bars to maybe be eventually dissapointed with their wretched behaviour in this putrid world. Somewhat beautiful tho is the fact that I can learn to love these DST characters as much as I initially hated them, like I did with wormwood. Still, they have lots of limitations, and it requires a deep mind shift or mental change to make yourself enjoy them, almost like a coping mechanism, some sort of delusional idea that forces me to like to play them until I actually do.. like them.

This is why the game gets more engagement when character skill trees or reworks are in development. Because honestly, It's all there is to it if you think about it.

And you might expect them to give us their all when it comes to making these characters as enjoyable as possible. But what I think I'm seeing is what it looks like a bit of food every year for the bears to leave their hibernation season and eventually stick their heads out of their caves, atleast for a month or two. A band-aid on an open wound that will never cicatrize.

Apart from the hardly written lore of the game, if you analyze the character updates from the DS launch until now, it almost looks like it didn't even do much. We're basically putting bricks over bricks without cement between them, it will eventually fall in my opinion.

The first fix is what the skill trees came to offer, but failed to deliver. In my opinion, it should've been something like :

I wanna play a melee wormwood with grass swords (check)

Now I wanna try a ranged wormwood with grass bows or grass guns (check)

Now I wanna do a support wormwood that heals players (check)

Now I wanna make a farming wormwood (check)

Now I wanna make a grinding wormwood that works faster with my muscle-less grass-implemented magic lunar arms (check)

Now I wanna make a grinding wormwood that works faster with my muscle-less grass-implemented magic shadow arms (lol)

You get the point. It doesn't fit the game, unless they decide to really code a lot of random stuff into the game to please even the small people that's playing the game. So if they're not doing that, It will forever look like just a bunch of reworks no.2 but with a really stupid redundant insight system of leveling skills in a tree.

And.. This is not only a game, it's a marketing product if you pay close attention. It is competing with every single other game out there.

If we really want to make this, we not only have to care about each characters identity, lore, skillsets and gameplay, but also balance all of them. And we might need like 10 more survivors to this game. Some skills gotta be way bigger and complex, and others simpler and narrowed, but both should be creative and engaging. It should convince me to open the game and play it, unless why are you doing it for?

The second fix would be to add classes to the game (?) but in this own unique DST way. I'm 100% sure that this is doable and possible, but I've seen a lot of people hate of these "rpg looking features that don't fit in a don't starvy grim and macabre aesthetic". But I'm not only confident, I'm sure that there is a way to put a costume on-top of it so people would mistakenly associate as new.

And there's nothing wrong with that. Just business am I right?

[Well-met]

tl;dr you believe character downsides make people miss out important vital mechanics.

except garden farming is actually really boring but yeah. I think this is highly subjective territory.

[layangan putus]

Elden Ring is a good example in how game should greet new players. Elden Ring is an open world and action RPG game with handcrafted progression. You start with a simple goal with three main paths to discover that is leading to one same linear path but you can always spend your time to explore everything. The real fans of the franchise will always play as Deprived or Wretch (that's the unique class offered in this dark fantasy setting) and also use the highest damage possible (usually colossal weapon or dual-wielding) without care about armor since the game is really skill-based & lots of checkpoints. It has obvious intended experience which is to make the players go through hardship (the dev is heavily inspired by Guts from Berserk) no matter what class you choose - same cheap tricks, boss surprises, traps, whatnot. Souls-like game design is dominantly about "hit & roll/parry" but never about build creativity (the classes and build are just auxiliary to offer more options). If you want to talk about class & build-oriented games, few great examples I know are Path of Exile, Grim Dawn, Last Epoch which are always about grinding for loots. The character lore (the player) is always open to interpretation to fill certain role in those games mentioned, you could roleplay to be anything to achieve your goal in the end.

Now with that out of the way, I agree that experience for beginner without enough knowledges can be harsh and time-consuming while most of the experienced players have already done figuring things out. Knowledges are key in this game because both character upsides and downsides can hinder beginners to fully experience stuff the game can offer and sadly this is related to the charm of this game. Historically speaking, DS franchise including DST always has these unique characters with definitive lore including their own perks & quirks - Ignoring this would kill the charm of this game, thus make the fans disappointed. You can name every survival game out there and yet I haven't found one that has unique characters like DST. This charm will also create these unique character-based playstyles related to survival in a random-generated Constant with a power struggle between lunar and shadow power. I also think the intended experience in DST is about surviving the current Constant while having adventures to discover mysteries. Balancing in DST must enhances these three aspects of the intended experience: Survival, Adventures, and Mysteries - For example: Abundant resources would make surviving easier, thus less adventures to discover mysteries.

 

TLDR: More characters/playstyles/classes should be always tied to DST charm (unique characters, the Constant, lunar and shadow power). You wanna talk about business? I think they should keep making unique products different from available products in the market and help the customer access its value - Avoid making this game an unsolvable puzzle for beginner if you wanna reach more customers.

[Bumber64]

4 hours ago, Well-met said:

tl;dr you believe character downsides make people miss out important vital mechanics.

except garden farming is actually really boring but yeah. I think this is highly subjective territory.

I got that from the first half, but I'm not sure what the entire second half of the post was about.

We should be able to do whatever with Wormwood, but we need 10 more survivors for some reason?

[Swiyss]

8 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

I got that from the first half, but I'm not sure what the entire second half of the post was about.

We should be able to do whatever with Wormwood, but we need 10 more survivors for some reason?

wormwood was just an example, skill trees should be like that for everyone imo. making surivors too unique limit our creativity but w/e really.

thats not that big of a problem. reality is that the skill trees couldve been implemented into them without the need of a skill tree. basically 90% of skills we have currently are just things that shouldve been in the characters kit. and most of them dont require much to achieve as well.

and it was just a niche example as well. not literally like that, but the idea of the example is what Im trying to communicate. I dont want classes for everybody literally.

[Cats_On_Fire]

4 hours ago, Swiyss said:

wormwood was just an example, skill trees should be like that for everyone imo. making surivors too unique limit our creativity but w/e really.

thats not that big of a problem. reality is that the skill trees couldve been implemented into them without the need of a skill tree. basically 90% of skills we have currently are just things that shouldve been in the characters kit. and most of them dont require much to achieve as well.

and it was just a niche example as well. not literally like that, but the idea of the example is what Im trying to communicate. I dont want classes for everybody literally.

It's a bit of yes and no. But I don't think everyone should be able to do everything 

[Echsrick]

i mean its a character downside, downsides exist for a good reason, if every character has only upsides then it feels kind of bland

[Evelo]

It sounds like you want a different game than Don't Starve. Give Rotwood a try? Idk. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Mike23Ua]

12 minutes ago, Evelo said:

It sounds like you want a different game than Don't Starve. Give Rotwood a try? Idk. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I wouldn’t be so fast to say that..

maybe the game they want isn’t “DST” but it is still very much part of the “Dont Starve” franchise.

For example: RE 5, RE 6 & RE 7 (Resident Evil) are all in the same exact franchise but each game plays drastically differently, one’s a full blown third person shooter action game, the other has a lot of puzzle solving elements, the other is a first person survival horror game that focuses less on “shoot everything that moves” and more on hiding and staying alive.

But they’re all still the same franchise.

Maybe what the op wants isn’t Super Mario Bros Wonder, but it IS Mario Kart 9.

My point? If there’s a market for such a game to be created for the franchise- then it very much would still be “Don’t Starve” it just wouldn’t be DST.

And I for one would be first in line to purchase a Dont Starve RogueLite game.

What I have no interest in whatsoever though- DS NewHome.

 

[Evelo]

2 hours ago, Mike23Ua said:

maybe the game they want isn’t “DST” but it is still very much part of the “Dont Starve” franchise.

Oh. To me that is even worse. I detest franchises, sequels, etc. Yucky. But to each their own, yknow.

[Mike23Ua]

5 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Oh. To me that is even worse. I detest franchises, sequels, etc. Yucky. But to each their own, yknow.

Technically Klei already has that with Dont Starve.

You have Dont Starve, the story driven game. You have Hamlet the city/home building/Dungeon temple raiding game, You have DST the peaceful base building & farming simulator/ Optional Boss fight Simulator.. And you have DS: NewHome (whatever the heck that is..)

im not even counting the limited time modes Gorge and Forge. Which were each respectively their own things. 

[arubaro]

Downsides arent what makes people drop the game at all. 

There are more casual players than players looking for a challenge, there are less players looking for a challenge that specifically wants to play a survival game

The game was niche and there is nothing wrong with that. There are plenty of casual cozy sandboxes, why ruining this game?

[oog]

I think the uniqueness between characters is what should set them apart rather than aesthetic. Not saying that aesthetics aren't important, obviously, but I quite like the feeling of playing another character and actually having to deal with downsides that revolve around that character's gimmick(s), it's what keeps a new playthrough fresh and interesting.

The simplest answer I can give you is that if you don't like how Wigfrid plays, don't play her. The "class" system you mentioned is more how the character system in DS / DST operates, and that's fine. Wigfrid's extremely powerful traits and skills are balanced by the fact that she can't eat veggies, meaning you need to play more aggressively (which makes sense, given that she's oriented fairly toward combat) when securing food instead of surviving the first 30 or so days off of foraging berries. Playing WX can get lots of different bonuses of your choice, but it requires you to acquire the crafts and scans to get the upgrades and thus forces you to play your game differently. 

[Peasant]

I don't understand a line of these, but since it's so long it must makes sense.

[aidankocherhans]

I feel like the solution to your problem is simply to play as Wilson with a mod that makes him look and sound like another character, I'm sure that exists somewhere

[hyoton123]

On 12/3/2024 at 6:31 PM, Swiyss said:

I can't eat meat

Just to be clear to anyone reading, OP meant the opposite.

 

On 12/3/2024 at 6:31 PM, Swiyss said:

I'm somewhat fine with that, not eating veggies will mean I'll skip completely on a whole farming spectrum of the game, with a bunch of recipes that I'll probably never get to experience because of it

This isn't really correct either, although not engaging with the farming system is more of a blessing. Wig needs at least 1 tomato per copy of rude interlude. That's more mandatory  than most characters get, tbh.

 

On 12/3/2024 at 6:31 PM, Swiyss said:

The upside of playing Wigfrid will never counter the downside of not being able to experience farming (since it's pointless) and cooking veggies.

No? That's purely subjective but beyond that, wig is better for a beginner because they *don't* have to worry about vegetables. They can just home in on killing stuff.

 

On 12/3/2024 at 6:31 PM, Swiyss said:

If we really want to make this, we not only have to care about each characters identity, lore, skillsets and gameplay, but also balance all of them. And we might need like 10 more survivors to this game.

Very hard disagree.