Make End-Game Knabsack Damage Great Again.

[Y0sH]

With the second update to the Skilltrees the Knabsack was changed to not require 5 filled Soul Jars for full damage (thank God) but also no Planar damage by having Pure Horror/Pure Brilliance in player's inventory.

The Soul Jars requirement being lowered from 5 Jars to 100 total held souls was an great change however taking away the Planar damage left the Knabsack's Late Game viability missing. Wortox's affinities are locked behind very specific pieces of gear and while I don't personally like it I think giving the player a choice for just added Planar damage to a weapon they're most likely familiar with from early to mid game is the best route.

TLDR: Bring back Planar Damage for the Knabsack even though it's considered a "Early to Mid-Game" item by most.

[arubaro]

Is nearly free...

[Hollow soul 3]

It's a lot of inventory and unused souls to be free. It's just a different cost.

Don't get me wrong, getting souls is easier than ever, but investing 4 points in a weapon or tool should probably let us expect it to be pretty great

[Y0sH]

28 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Is nearly free...

Increase the cost and make it repairable with souls...

9 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

It's a lot of inventory and unused souls to be free. It's just a different cost.

Don't get me wrong, getting souls is easier than ever, but investing 4 points in a weapon or tool should probably let us expect it to be pretty great

If you dedicate a good portion of the Skilltree to a character-specific weapon you're absolutely right with it needing to be great. Look at Wigfrids, great weapon early game and can be upgraded for endgame viability. Don't make me sink insight points into it then make me use a different weapon to utilize the affinity of the tree. Seems backwards.

[Echsrick]

i still dont think the knapsack sould have ever been a weapon in the first place

[Hollow soul 3]

I was wrong, it's six points to make it great as a bug net. Not having it as a bug net doesn't stop us from using the strategy, it just makes us craft more nets.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

 

50 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

It's a lot of inventory and unused souls to be free. It's just a different cost.

Don't get me wrong, getting souls is easier than ever, but investing 4 points in a weapon or tool should probably let us expect it to be pretty great

It's not 4 Insight points. It's 3, and 2 of those skills you want anyways. If you want to go with a Nice build, it's still an investment of 1 in practice because skipping the Soul Jar is... insanity. 2 skills total have any interaction with the Nabsack base skill, and only 1 of those is past the Soul Jar. Where did you get 4?

Anyways, what's the point of weak planar damage if it's not any better than the Shadow Reaper or Brightshade Sword? May as well keep the item as simple as possible if it isn't post-rift viable anyways. At least it's still a cheap option for non-planar trash mobs, and now I don't have to carry Silk on me forever. I don't see the point.

I just want it to cost less durability when picking up items. They don't seem interested in making it a Bug Net.

[Dingle]

1 minute ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

 

It's not 4 Insight points. It's 3, and 2 of those skills you want anyways. If you want to go with a Nice build, it's still an investment of 1 in practice because skipping the Soul Jar is... insanity. 2 skills total have any interaction with the Nabsack base skill, and only 1 of those is past the Soul Jar. Where did you get 4?

Anyways, what's the point of weak planar damage if it's not any better than the Shadow Reaper or Brightshade Sword? May as well keep the item as simple as possible if it isn't post-rift viable anyways. At least it's still a cheap option for non-planar trash mobs, and now I don't have to carry Silk on me forever. I don't see the point.

I just want it to cost less durability when picking up items. They don't seem interested in making it a Bug Net.

Yeah, if they don't do it next update they're probably not giving it a bug net function. Would have been fun.

I've actually seen two people skip the jar on purpose. They both went Nice + Neutral builds. I don't agree with this at all, but maybe there's a niche for it.

[HowlVoid]

I dont understand why wortox needed a weapon in the first place. 

Feels like bloat to the skill trees.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

Yeah, if they don't do it next update they're probably not giving it a bug net function. Would have been fun.

I've actually seen two people skip the jar on purpose. They both went Nice + Neutral builds. I don't agree with this at all, but maybe there's a niche for it.

I have seen it too. It's taking all my strength to keep my composition and bite my tongue instead, but so far so good. Tongue's bloody, though.

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I dont understand why wortox needed a weapon in the first place. 

Feels like bloat to the skill trees.

To constantly kill things for souls. Making a new ham bat once it hit 49 damage got pretty annoying. I used an Ornery for awhile as an infinite way to 2 shot bees, but beefalo get pretty annoying because you can't teleport without dismounting.

The knabsack 2 shots spiders and bees as long as you have Covetous and 50 souls or so. It's really nice QOL, though I still use ham bats a lot too if I think I'm going to be dipping under 50 souls.

[ArtiTheFool]

9 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

I dont understand why wortox needed a weapon in the first place. 

Feels like bloat to the skill trees.

I mean, his whole thing is killing creatures for their souls. But yea I do partly agree, people should focus more on the knapsack's stealing/item gathering abilities rather than combat ones.

[HowlVoid]

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

To constantly kill things for souls. Making a new ham bat once it hit 49 damage got pretty annoying. I used an Ornery for awhile as an infinite way to 2 shot bees, but beefalo get pretty annoying because you can't teleport without dismounting.

The knabsack 2 shots spiders and bees as long as you have Covetous and 50 souls or so. It's really nice QOL, though I still use ham bats a lot too if I think I'm going to be dipping under 50 souls.

Doesn't the shield of terror do this too? If they made it so you could feed it souls that would give Wortox a similar weapon that doesn't require a skill point. Just make it heal like 20 uses so it's always a net gain.

[Dingle]

Just now, HowlVoid said:

Doesn't the shield of terror do this too? If they made it so you could feed it souls that would give Wortox a similar weapon that doesn't require a skill point. Just make it heal like 20 uses so it's always a net gain.

Downside: you have to kill the twins of terror for it.

I used that too, but not as much. I just carried monster meat to repair it.

I seldom got this anytime early, though. And I usually didnt bother getting it solo.

[HowlVoid]

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Downside: you have to kill the twins of terror for it.

I used that too, but not as much. I just carried monster meat to repair it.

I seldom got this anytime early, though. And I usually didnt bother getting it solo.

I see, make sense. I agree with you then, killing the twins might be an issue for some players or just people not willing to rush it for convenience.

[Y0sH]

33 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Anyways, what's the point of weak planar damage if it's not any better than the Shadow Reaper or Brightshade Sword? May as well keep the item as simple as possible if it isn't post-rift viable anyways. At least it's still a cheap option for non-planar trash mobs, and now I don't have to carry Silk on me forever. I don't see the point.

I just want it to cost less durability when picking up items. They don't seem interested in making it a Bug Net.

The point is we already have an example of great character specific weapons/armor, Wigfrid and Wormwood. You have to spec into the weapon, if you have to go out your way to have it as a craftable it only makes sense to have it upgradable like the others. It's not about the weapon being better than the other Post rift weapons it's about having access to upgrade the weapon to have comparable damage even if it is worse objectively wether that be damage being a little lower, durability drains faster etc..

[Bumber64]

The inventory fullness mechanic is weird to me. It doesn't seem to actually be based on how full each stack is, so you can just spread a single item type across your slots as needed. It's a nonsensical and clunky mechanic.

I'd rather it just be based on soul count, and then occasionally consume souls (exceeding 100, or manually applied) for max damage plus repair.

I don't know that it actually needs to do planar damage. At some point you should just switch to the end game weapons and reserve it for utility.

(I suggested in an update thread that knabsack could have its own slots for souls and planar items. If we're not doing that, it'd be better just to have an upgraded version of the weapon rather than use what's in Wortox's slots.)

[Y0sH]

4 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

The inventory fullness mechanic is weird to me. It doesn't seem to actually be based on how full each stack is, so you can just spread a single item type across your slots as needed. It's a tedious and clunky mechanic.

I'd rather it just be based on soul count, and then occasionally consume souls (exceeding 100) for max damage plus repair.

I don't know that it actually needs to do planar damage. At some point you should just switch to the end game weapons and reserve it for utility.

(I suggested in an update thread that knabsack could have its own slots for souls and planar items. If we're not doing that, it'd be better just to have an upgraded version of the weapon rather than use what's in Wortox's slots.)

I also suggested allowing it to be Repairable too with just more expensive craft items since you're essentially only making one and keeping it repaired. I'd go for that if the Planar isn't re-implemented

[OMEGASCRUFF]

49 minutes ago, Y0sH said:

The point is we already have an example of great character specific weapons/armor, Wigfrid and Wormwood. You have to spec into the weapon, if you have to go out your way to have it as a craftable it only makes sense to have it upgradable like the others. It's not about the weapon being better than the other Post rift weapons it's about having access to upgrade the weapon to have comparable damage even if it is worse objectively wether that be damage being a little lower, durability drains faster etc..

Erm, I'm not sure this answers my question. An upgrade for the sake of an upgrade doesn't really mean anything, even if they're rad sometimes, and this is a circular reasoning. The use case is what matters. What is the purpose of the upgrade?

In practice, all the planar upgrades did was give you a slight damage boost if you have a Wilson to transmute Pure Brilliance after Crab King, a Charlie aligned Winona who's lucky, or the Pure Horror from Nightmare Werepig. It was just a very moderate damage boost after killing Nightmare Werepig that didn't last too long before being replaced with the Shadow Reaper, while also taking up another inventory slot. It's nice that you could have it for your first Fuelweaver fight, I suppose, but the damage is really trivial.

For them to reimplement a planar upgrade, they're going to have to heavily rework it somehow without stepping on the toes of the Shadow Reaper. I think the devs came to the conclusion it wasn't worth it. Maybe they even remembered that the points where you can access Pure Horror and Pure Brilliance are actually different from being post-rift, and it's a weird inconsistency.

I promise, I too would like a better reason to continue to keep this item on me and incorporate it into my gameplay post-rifts. But it just doesn't offer anything unique enough, and the weak planar damage it had didn't do anything to save it long-term. It was just a modest early-ish/mid-game damage bonus after Nightmare Werepig in reality.

This is part of the reason why I want the utility options I mentioned earlier, so it would continue to serve a purpose in a post-rift environment. At least a little bit better, anyways.

[Dingle]

Anything done to make the knapsack more complex, weaker, or take more souls is probably going to make me just go back to ham bats to be honest.

That goes for making the base recipe more complex, too. It has to meaningfully compete with how simple ham bats are early and mid game.

And now I can teleport to my fridge full of meat, easier than ever.

Edit: having souls repair it for 20% wouldn't be bad.

 

[Y0sH]

3 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

I promise, I too would like a better reason to continue to keep this item on me and incorporate it into my gameplay post-rifts. But it just doesn't offer anything unique enough, and the weak planar damage it had didn't do anything to save it long-term. It was just a modest early-ish/mid-game damage bonus after Nightmare Werepig in reality.

This is exactly the point of why it being able to do Planar damage albeit weaker than the Scythe, Brightshade sword etc. it allows you to have a weapon that would truly aid you until late game while still having the Scythe/BS Armor worth going for affinity skills. To get Tatters and Husk you have to farm them it makes sense to use a Planar aligned weapon to do so. THEN when you have the post rift gear you can make the switch.

This suggestion is in no way saying it should be stronger than those other aligned weapons but it would quite nicely fill the awkward gap in helping defeat the enemies FOR that post rift gear.

[Peasant]

MKGA！

[OMEGASCRUFF]

19 minutes ago, Y0sH said:

This is exactly the point of why it being able to do Planar damage albeit weaker than the Scythe, Brightshade sword etc. it allows you to have a weapon that would truly aid you until late game while still having the Scythe/BS Armor worth going for affinity skills. To get Tatters and Husk you have to farm them it makes sense to use a Planar aligned weapon to do so. THEN when you have the post rift gear you can make the switch.

This suggestion is in no way saying it should be stronger than those other aligned weapons but it would quite nicely fill the awkward gap in helping defeat the enemies FOR that post rift gear.

Sure, but I figure you would have brought this up if it was a factor in your initial argument. I mentioned it because a lot of people just forgot about the Pure Horror from Nightmare Werepig. It was only a damage bonus of 4 iirc, though, and other characters have to deal with killing the Inkblights without access to planar damage as well. There's also the chance you spawn Rictus instead, who is significantly easier anyways. It was kinda nice to have, but it wasn't enough to make a very notable difference either.

If they do reimplement it, I'd prefer the Nabsack had an Enlightened Crown type of inventory and whichever item you slotted it with also gave you a damage boost to the opposing affinity, up to 10%, along with the planar damage returning. At least it'd be a bit better for taking out whichever main boss you didn't kill first (though Pure Brilliance would still require another swap to Wilson unless you wait for rifts to open, which is kinda cringe.) I don't know what would happen if the item breaks, since I don't think that's programmed into the Enlightened Crown functionality. Ideally you'd just get your goodies back.

At the end of the day, I think what it needs most is a permanent place in Wortox's inventory as a good utility item. It doesn't have that, at the moment. But if I could use it as a slightly worse Brightshade Sword that doesn't require I carry around the helmet or repair kits, that wouldn't be so awful. It would be nice if it were more expensive but repairable as well for that reason, since I'd rather not carry Silk around too.

I'm not really against you here, but if it changes, it should really have a good purpose to do so.

(I still don't really understand why the #1 support character gets an exclusive weapon, to begin with, though, but it is what it is.)