New neutral perks on wortox are kinda op (?)

[Jazzuo]

Okay, i get that the pan flute needed some buffs but like 6 souls for just using a pan flute and also 5 sanity, and you can use it for free every day is kinda nuts, i mean still is better to farm souls but as a passive income for souls is kinda nuts

[Steorra]

hmm, I don't think so.

since after skill tree the soul mechanism become a basic mechanism for Wortox, I think to ensure he has few daily soul income is not a very OP thing. Especially the pan flute is extremely rare for early game.

and - for those who already have basic skills for DST, it is not a thing to farm 6 small mobs per day. it just time-consuming and boring, but not hard.

daily souls incoming is just canceled boring farming, not for cancel game difficulty of Wortox.

 

I hope we could know difference between QoL and OP thing. To make some character's "downside" become convenience is not OP, it is just QoL thing. We can't say that "Wow it save players from boring time so it is OP".

This is same for Abi when we talking about day 0 small mobs auto killing. For those who already have basic knowledge about DST, to farm some small mobs is not a "difficult" thing, we can't say "Wendy could just stand and wait to kill mobs is OP" because everyone have hands to do same thing easily. The game is about fun but not about automatically economic income.

[BalkanCockroach]

How come? You can farm souls easily and now store a whole bunch of them. This is pretty strong but i wouldn't say OP. 

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

Especially the pan flute is extremely rare for early game.

Except the guaranteed one near the Glommer statue.

[Steorra]

1 minute ago, BalkanCockroach said:

How come? You can farm souls easily and now store a whole bunch of them. This is pretty strong but i wouldn't say OP. 

Except the guaranteed one near the Glommer statue.

that is still rare in public server, it may carried off-line by some other players : (

[BalkanCockroach]

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

that is still rare in public server, it may carried off-line by some other players : (

Well, there are still mandrakes so you can make a couple. I never had problem getting a flute, people usually keep it at the base.

[Jazzuo]

10 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I hope we could know difference between QoL and OP thing. To make some character's "downside" become convenience is not OP, it is just QoL thing. We can't say that "Wow it save players from boring time so it is OP".

i mean i think is op tho, basically you spawn souls that are not suppose to replace the grind of souls, the pan flute is spawing souls which mean you can actually proc soul pircing with them, meaning if you want to farm souls more easily you can grab that and generate more souls, or for example against a boss you spawn souls for using a pan flute and can use it to deal more damage. like it seems kinda op in that sense, it's a lot of things for just one perk

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, Jazzuo said:

i mean i think is op tho, basically you spawn souls that are not suppose to replace the grind of souls, the pan flute is spawing souls which mean you can actually proc soul pircing with them, meaning if you want to farm souls more easily you can grab that and generate more souls, or for example against a boss you spawn souls for using a pan flute and can use it to deal more damage. like it seems kinda op in that sense, it's a lot of things for just one perk

those "lot of things" only because of one reason - soul is already a basic mechanism for Wortox.

I don't think daily free souls is such matters. daily free souls is just daily free souls which save your time from killing 6 bees everyday. all "lot of things" is Wortox basic mechanism but not benefit from simple daily souls income.

[Jazzuo]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

those "lot of things" only because of one reason - soul is already a basic mechanism for Wortox.

I don't think daily free souls is such matters. daily free souls is just daily free souls which save your time from killing 6 bees everyday. all "lot of things" is Wortox basic mechanism but not benefit from simple daily souls income.

i mean, that's not really my point, my point is, that yeah even tho it saves you to kill 6 bees that doesn't seem that much, you can do this while you kill bees at the same time or even use the souls you gain from the pan flute to deal more damage to bees

[Jazzuo]

5 minutes ago, SSneaky said:

Tbh souls and embers are stuipid easy to get.

yeah that's why i don't think this change is good in that case, like i was waiting something to yk make the nice side of wortox have more ways to get more easily souls, but this is like, wow if you have some naughty perks this is like double effective and idk, it feels bad in that way, because i don't think that the naugthy side needed help to farm souls lmao

[BalkanCockroach]

4 minutes ago, Jazzuo said:

yeah that's why i don't think this change is good in that case, like i was waiting something to yk make the nice side of wortox have more ways to get more easily souls, but this is like, wow if you have some naughty perks this is like double effective and idk, it feels bad in that way, because i don't think that the naugthy side needed help to farm souls lmao

Good thing you can utilize these skills while having the nice build.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

The neutral skills are still not worth taking, even with the changes. Calling them OP is... interesting.

[Dingle]

Yeah I'm not sure what "OP" means here haha. 6 souls per day for 2 perk points. You're sacrificing two other perks for it, think about what you're losing.

[Pruinae]

8 hours ago, Jazzuo said:

i mean i think is op tho, basically you spawn souls that are not suppose to replace the grind of souls, the pan flute is spawing souls which mean you can actually proc soul pircing with them, meaning if you want to farm souls more easily you can grab that and generate more souls, or for example against a boss you spawn souls for using a pan flute and can use it to deal more damage. like it seems kinda op in that sense, it's a lot of things for just one perk

Against bosses specifically, can't you drop butterflies near them so they die to the boss' AoE? Then use those souls to deal damage with pierce. The panflute is free but has a cap of 6, butterflies you could drop like 40 lol

[Jazzuo]

38 minutes ago, Pruinae said:

Against bosses specifically, can't you drop butterflies near them so they die to the boss' AoE? Then use those souls to deal damage with pierce. The panflute is free but has a cap of 6, butterflies you could drop like 40 lol

i mean yeah, but this is more easy and less boring than catching 40 bees or butterflies

[OMEGASCRUFF]

6 minutes ago, Jazzuo said:

i mean yeah, but this is more easy and less boring than catching 40 bees or butterflies

Fine, I guess I'll drop a wall of text to explain the issues with the Neutral skills.

The circular positioning means all Souls won't hit immediately. You can kite them afterwards for repeated damage but... with only 6 Souls, you're not doing meaningful damage. The first attack matters greatly for the Butterfly strat, too. (Bees will not work for this. They drop on the floor in a line the same way that Moongleams do. You can also bundle multiple stacks of Butterflies to quickly drop more than 20 and keep them synced, but your computer's performance and your game settings will cause your mileage to vary. It also takes much longer to catch the Butterflies than to kill any boss normally, so I really don't see the point to begin with.) Also, you're going to cause the enemies to wake up if you hit them with Soul Pierce. This kind of makes the Pan Flute worse in combat in practice on a Naughty build, unless you position yourself appropriately away from the target(s). The 5 sanity is, frankly, insulting. The Neutral skills are still unworthy.

As far as the supply is concerned, the Soul meta has changed on Wortox. 6 free daily Souls is meaningless. Just get as many Soul Jars as you want, quickly mass murder a Killer Bee biome (or a proper Spider setup; it's a little slower and more finicky but their drops are better at least), and fill the entirety of your Jars all at once. I've been doing this with shadow alignment + Soul Pierce + Bramble Armor and 3-6 Jars, plus restocking my on-hand supply. You can do this with Bramble Armor alone, or the help of a Wendy/other AoE character, or a Varg farm, etc. Spam the benefits of Souls as much as you want until you're down to 2 Jars or less. Rinse and repeat. It doesn't take much time to get previously-unreasonable amounts of Souls, and your supply lasts pretty long now that we have multiple skills that reduce our consumption to begin with. We play like Willow now. (I have repeatedly expressed my qualms with this being possible to its current extent for multiple reasons, but it seems unlikely it will change at this point. I still do not want it to be possible for more than 1 Jar to be held, and I'll keep saying this until it changes or I stop breathing.)

Lastly, you're a bit tight on Insight points to begin with. The Naughty and Nice skills are both absolutely cracked. You could make room for it with a Nice build, but I think it's more useful to take two of Overwhelming Greed, Soul Decoy I, or an alignment, for the utility they offer. You could drop Reverberation and Soul Bastion II or skip an alignment instead, but I just don't see how it's worth it.

The Neutral skills don't really offer anything you can't just do without them, unfortunately, and three characters can provide alternative sleep support as well. I hope you can see why they're still disappointing now. At least they're cute, I guess.

[Dingle]

11 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Fine, I guess I'll drop a wall of text to explain the issues with the Neutral skills.

The circular positioning means all Souls won't hit immediately. You can kite them afterwards for repeated damage but... with only 6 Souls, you're not doing meaningful damage. The first attack matters greatly for the Butterfly strat, too. (Bees will not work for this. They drop on the floor in a line the same way that Moongleams do. You can also bundle multiple stacks of Butterflies to quickly drop more than 20 and keep them synced, but your computer's performance and your game settings will cause your mileage to vary. It also takes much longer to catch the Butterflies than to kill any boss normally, so I really don't see the point to begin with.) Also, you're going to cause the enemies to wake up if you hit them with Soul Pierce. This kind of makes the Pan Flute worse in combat in practice on a Naughty build, unless you position yourself appropriately away from the target(s). The 5 sanity is, frankly, insulting. The Neutral skills are still unworthy.

As far as the supply is concerned, the Soul meta has changed on Wortox. 6 free daily Souls is meaningless. Just get as many Soul Jars as you want, quickly mass murder a Killer Bee biome (or a proper Spider setup; it's a little slower and more finicky but their drops are better at least), and fill the entirety of your Jars all at once. I've been doing this with shadow alignment + Soul Pierce + Bramble Armor and 3-6 Jars, plus restocking my on-hand supply. You can do this with Bramble Armor alone, or the help of a Wendy/other AoE character, or a Varg farm, etc. Spam the benefits of Souls as much as you want until you're down to 2 Jars or less. Rinse and repeat. It doesn't take much time to get previously-unreasonable amounts of Souls, and your supply lasts pretty long now that we have multiple skills that reduce our consumption to begin with. We play like Willow now. (I have repeatedly expressed my qualms with this being possible to its current extent for multiple reasons, but it seems unlikely it will change at this point. I still do not want it to be possible for more than 1 Jar to be held, and I'll keep saying this until it changes or I stop breathing.)

Lastly, you're a bit tight on Insight points to begin with. The Naughty and Nice skills are both absolutely cracked. You could make room for it with a Nice build, but I think it's more useful to take two of Overwhelming Greed, Soul Decoy I, or an alignment, for the utility they offer. You could drop Reverberation and Soul Bastion II or skip an alignment instead, but I just don't see how it's worth it.

The Neutral skills don't really offer anything you can't just do without them, unfortunately, and three characters can provide alternative sleep support as well. I hope you can see why they're still disappointing now. At least they're cute, I guess.

In addition, Wortox builds are incredibly tight due to the combo of:

1. You need +3 naughty or nice for the alignment bonus

2. The capstones are above 5 perk point locks, and perks below tend to be weak filler with one big obvious exception 

3. You want to save a point for shadow or lunar

Frankly, I couldn't justify wasting a single point in Neutral unless the perks were very, very strong. 1 free toot and 6 souls a day is not enough. And that's for two points!

Neutral alignment itself getting a bonus could help. Or having the alignment required be +2 instead of +3.

[Hollow soul 3]

It makes it really hard for him to starve. Free full stomach every day might be a beginners trap. 

[Echsrick]

2 hours ago, Dingle said:

In addition, Wortox builds are incredibly tight due to the combo of:

1. You need +3 naughty or nice for the alignment bonus

2. The capstones are above 5 perk point locks, and perks below tend to be weak filler with one big obvious exception 

3. You want to save a point for shadow or lunar

Frankly, I couldn't justify wasting a single point in Neutral unless the perks were very, very strong. 1 free toot and 6 souls a day is not enough. And that's for two points!

Neutral alignment itself getting a bonus could help. Or having the alignment required be +2 instead of +3.

what if the locks would be removed with a combination of nice/naughty + all total neutral skills? that way i think would be better, or the lock only needing 3 or 4 skills then a whole 5 wich realy is expensive

[Dingle]

48 minutes ago, Hollow soul 3 said:

It makes it really hard for him to starve. Free full stomach every day might be a beginners trap. 

I could see Neutral as being an intentional "beginners series" of perks.