The Wendy/Beefalo Discussion (mathematical version))

[ConstantBreeze]

The beefalo discussion seems to have died down, at least slightly, but I'd still like to mathematically break down the nerf that roughly half the community wants (beyond any sort of mathematical understanding that I can come to).

Warning: this is gonna be a long one, but I've put most important numbers and information in bold.

 

So first and foremost, the current interaction:

Wendy's multiplier when fighting with Abby sits at 0.75×1.1×1.4 totaling a multiplier of 1.155, just so you know why we use that multiplier.

The beefalo's multiplier when fighting with Abby is 1.1×1.4 totaling a multiplier of 1.54 I will be simplifying both of these multipliers in the discussion.

Now that we have that out of the way I will be showing the four most common builds a player might use as Wendy from highest damage to lowest damage

 

Ornery + war saddle - 66×1.54=101.64 

Ornery + standard/glossamer - 50×1.54=77

Wendy on foot (darksword) - 68×1.155=78.54

Wendy on foot (fresh hambat) - 59.5×1.155=68.7225

Just for a comparison Wigfrid with a darksword while having no other requirements and a comfy 25% universal damage resistance (one that blocks damage from food, DOT, and even planar) deals - 68×1.25=85

101 damage IS a big number, but you have to remember Wendy had to spend roughly 25 days and had to get a war saddle to obtain that damage and can only mount the beefalo after feeding it at least a stick even when tamed and can only reach this damage while fighting along side Abby who can die relatively quickly if your inattentive AND some bosses can throw you off the beefalo.

Now let's account for the nerf that some people want (for some reason)

Wendy's numbers would all stay the same, but the beefalo...

Ornery w/standard saddle    50×1.1=55

Ornery w/ war saddle        66×1.1=72.6 

That's rough, buddy.

Just for a quick reminder/comparison Wendy with a hambat while fighting alongside Abby deals 68.7225 damage. The Ornery beefalo with the war saddle is only managing an additional 3.8775 damage. I don't know about you, but that doesn't feel like it's worth an upfront cost of 24 days, the resources used in those 24 days, a hard to obtain saddle that reduces your top speed, and keeping the beefalo alive. Especially when considering my next point:

Attack speed

The beefalo attacks at a rate of 2 per second

Meanwhile the player attacks at an average rate of 2.2222(recurring) times per second

An extra .22 swings per second means you only gain an extra attack after 5 uninterrupted seconds, right? WRONG, well kind of.

That extra .22 of a swing let's you gain 1 extra hit on Klaus and some other bosses/enemies, but let's focus on Klaus specifically. Why Klaus specifically?

Well the only reason to use a beefalo in a reality that it only deals an additional 10% damage with Abby would be to use it in scenarios without Abby. The thing about that...

66×3=198 (War beef)

59.5×0.75×4=178.5 (hambat)

50×3=150 (normal ornery)

So Wendy with a hambat is still between an ornery beefalo with and without their saddle, and again I must restate the importance of not being able to use Abby AT ALL is the only scenario in which an ornery beefalo without a saddle is reasonably better, and even then only slightly better than a hambat, if the player decides to use a couple darkswords for the fight they'll deal 204 damage per kiting window, and I don't want to hear about animation canceling. It's a great form of skill expression, but I don't think it belongs in a discussion about balance. And even if you think it does, now Wendy also has to properly animation cancel while doing all the previously stated requirements.

 

So clearly you must be complaining about health!? BUT A STANDARD HEALTH POOL (150) IS EFFECTIVELY 750 WITH AN EASILY AQUIREABLE FOOTBALL HELMET. "What about the healing multiplier?" What about the healing multiplier?!

The beefalo recieves an effective healing of 4× (because it literally gets multiplied by 4)

The player gets an effective healing of 5× (because they only recieve a 5th of the damage while wearing 80% protection) while having easy access to 40 health healing items (except Wurt, Wormwood, Wanda, and Wortox, but everyone except Wormwood in the exceptions has an equal or better alternative or in the case of Wurt has an army to take damage for her a majority of the time)

and players can heal FOR MORE EFFECTIVE HEALTH while currently in combat. (EVEN THE WIKI KNOWS YOU SHOULD RARELY CONSIDER HEALING A BEEFALO MID-FIGHT)

So if you want to be the near the equivalent effectiveness of a beefalo, play Wilson, bring enough football helmets, bring one pierogi (effective 200 health), one potato (effective 100 health) and be missing 10 health before starting the fight (-50 effective health) while eating one butterfly slightly more often than every 60 seconds (one every 57.97~ seconds) and you'll still be slightly better than an unassisted beefalo and much better than an assisted beefalo that only recieves a 10% buff (assuming you're player Wendy with her 15.5% buff, heck even as Wilson with your own 10% buff)

And beyond all that, other characters have mounted interactions, occasionally mounted interactions even better than Wendy's, and some of those better interactions are for LESS COST.

Warly - relatively expensive but still mighty and farmable, he can spice the beefalo and electrify himself giving 1.8 - 3× damage for 5 minutes while armoring the beefalo with garlic spice.

Wormwood - can still proc his brambleshade skill while ignoring his healing penalty

Wolfgang - while niche can use his coaching whistle (super strong when teamed with Wurt or even Webber)

Wigfrid - better off with a rider beefalo, but still a strong interaction. Her lifesteal still works, she gains up to 50 inspiration from riding and, therefore, can chose to permanently have heart rending active and can heal from an unkillable, stationary punching bag that will never fight back.

Maxwell - where do we start with Maxwell? Maxwell can hold the shadow thurible and wear the bone helm to have 6 shadow fighter, each dealing 60 damage, that attack at best once every 1.8 seconds, while Maxwell himself deals 66 damage every half second, and being able to use the shadow prison on a boss letting him freely dismount to heal his mount. Even before he gets the fuelweaver he can still do pretty well at a respectable 5 shadow fighters, dealing 44 damage each, at a 1.8 second attack rate while still himself dealing 66 damage every half second (and ignoring his low health pool)

But for some reason some of you draw the line at Wendy? Who puts herself at realistically much greater risk by using a beefalo rather than choosing to fight on foot.

So if nerfing the (preprogrammed) damage multiplier (working as intended) for the beefalo makes it completely useless AND it's effectively less tanky than a player AND more difficult to mount and use in a pinch. What EXACTLY is the problem here?

If the beefalo were to get nerfed in the way some people request the question Wendys would face goes from "Do I want to go through the risk and effort of taming and maintaining an ornery beefalo that will help me in 90% of scenarios?" To "Am I really going to put in the effort to fully tame a beefalo that is only going to assist me in 2 scenarios* while it'd be better, safer, AND easier to fight on foot while taming a rider (if even bothering to tame one at all and probably just to move statues) a vast majority of the time?" It wouldn't make the "meta" more flexible, it would make it significantly less flexible and, therefore, more boring.

Because the same thing happened with gestalt Abby from what I heard. Everyone saw a big number, even though it's technically worse than standard Abby, didn't do the math or testing, complained, and it got nerfed to stop interacting with nightshade even though to even consider choosing lunar alignment 3 or even 2 it should have gotten buffed at the time.

 

*the two scenarios are Klaus** (as previously stated) and bearger***

**the reason you don't use Abby when fighting Klaus is because she could kill the deer causing problems, but taking time to get the deer stuck a safe distance away before the fight while tanking with marble armor would once more completely negate the use of a beefalo in this hypothetical alternate reality.

***I have yet to have a chance to test it, but I've theorized that as of the "new" Bearger you could set Abby on the back side of Bearger while kiting the slashes away from Abby and she would only need a few Spectral cure-alls (assuming revenant restorative already isn't enough) to tank the slams.

And that is all I have to say about beefalo. Feel free to completely ignore the math and still argue like I know a few of you will.

[Dingle]

Oh wow. It's weird that the highest skill Wendy players use Beefalo to speedrun bosses faster than Maxwell can.

You should show them this math, so they stop using beefalo. She must be even stronger without beefalo. Its weird that they keep making this mistake of using Wendy's not strong at all beefalo mechanics to stomp the game faster than Maxwell.

The math doesn't lie!

Also your poll should just say: "Wendy is really weak and the devs are wrong despite any evidence. Do you agree?

Yes

No (but I am wrong and mean Yes)"

[Well-met]

make beefalos balanced like before YoTb and all sub-problems related to beefalos will be solved

[Evelo]

The thing about statistics is they only mean what the writer wants to tell. It is very easy to manipulate numbers in a way that proves your point. The poll options reflect this as well. Please tone down the hubris.

My issue with Beefalo is you play as the Beefalo, with all the upsides and none of the downsides. If Beefalo couldn't be healed by food when tamed by a Wormwood, if Beefalo had half HP when tamed by Maxwell, if Wes and Wendy applied their .75 damage multiplier for beefalo, I'd be all on board for beefalo. However that isn't what we have. Can't heal with food as wormwood? Ok. Just ride a beefalo and never take damage. Maxwell is squishy? Just have a high HP high mobility tank do all the damage absorption for you. Wendy and Wes do less damage with their attacks? Just let the beefalo handle it.

[Bumber64]

The point of beefalo isn't to do DPS. It's that they've got high health and are fast. This lets you get around places and avoid damage, equivalent to wearing a magiluminescence and helmet that you don't have to actively repair. Oh, and there's no weapon durability either.

So what happens if the multiplier gets nerfed? Well, you might be inclined to fight on foot while Abi is around. However, what if Abi dies during a fight? Well, then you're going to wish you were using the beefalo's 1.0x multiplier to negate your downside.

And then we get to the pending petal shroud change, where Abi will use your helmet for protection. Your helmet is certainly going to last a lot longer if it's not taking hits for Wendy.

1 hour ago, ConstantBreeze said:

Warly - relatively expensive but still mighty and farmable, he can spice the beefalo and electrify himself giving 1.8 - 3× damage for 5 minutes while armoring the beefalo with garlic spice.

This doesn't address why he'd actually need the beefalo, does it? I don't think any of these examples give a DPS boost compared to on foot, because it was never about the strict DPS. Ergo, the all the math was meaningless.

[ConstantBreeze]

Do I really need to tell you that a man that slowly heals less and less from repeated healing foods would perform better when something could take the damage for him while he can armor his beefalo?

[Dingle]

Thinking about it, if it's not raining, Wendy on a beefalo almost does as much damage on Warly on a beefalo if he is using voltgoat chaud froid.

Wendy on a beefalo is so massively strong that Warly, using spiced volt goat jelly, does less than 20% extra damage than she does. For a limited time. Using rare resources. Wendy gets her immense beefalo damage, permanently, as long as Abigail is alive. And if she dies, she can just be resummoned! 

Wendy's massive beefalo advantage is so powerful that its almost as strong as voltgoat chaud froid. This makes me come to one conclusion:

Klei, please, PLEASE, nerf Wolfgang's ability to use the coaching whistle on a beefalo and also buff Wendy because she is weak.

[Bumber64]

4 minutes ago, ConstantBreeze said:

Do I really need to tell you that a man that slowly heals less and less from repeated healing foods would perform better when something could take the damage for him while he can armor his beefalo?

Then does Wendy not also benefit in some way even at 1.155x damage?

[ConstantBreeze]

I did say, "feel free," I suppose.

great minds think, alike though fools rarely differ.

Mayhaps I'm the fool, though I mostly implied why the suggested nerf would be bad more than anything else.

Then again a fool would accept data when there had only been 6 points without thinking for a moment that the data set too small.

Though I don't really have to defend my point, just thought the math was interesting. The game hasn't been nerfed so far.

So while you bicker to the point that I've seen some of you take jokes seriously, I'll actually enjoy playing the game I want, with my well earned mount, that deals rewarding damage, instead of just picking a character with a damage multiplier that I find boring.

 

Sincerely, an inhabitant of the same Constant as you.

[Hi.]

Nerfing the Wendy + beefalo strat is just dumb (respectfully)

[DegenerateFurry]

I think people are missing the point of this thread. If I'm correctly interpreting things, ConstantBreeze's point isn't that Wendy is weak or that Wendy is stupidly overpowered, it's that Beefalo+Wendy is balanced and does not need a nerf. The math does support this conclusion if you actually bother to read it. 

[SpookyXy]

Lunar Abby not interacting with Nightshade was a bug that is being fixed, you should remove it from your argument because it is incorrect.

[ConstantBreeze]

10 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

I think people are missing the point of this thread. If I'm correctly interpreting things, ConstantBreeze's point isn't that Wendy is weak or that Wendy is stupidly overpowered, it's that Beefalo+Wendy is balanced and does not need a nerf. The math does support this conclusion if you actually bother to read it. 

My goodness, someone can read. Unfortunately, yeah, every argument seems to be against things that I've already addressed, or otherwise grasping for anything to attempt to invalidate my argument that beefalo are balanced, or at least that the suggested nerf is quite terrible.(moving the goalpost)

 

I've seen one good argument that, while I don't agree with, is at least partially sound:

21 hours ago, Evelo said:

My issue with Beefalo is you play as the Beefalo, with all the upsides and none of the downsides.

I still feel you're dropping your downsides for adequate different downsides.

For example: While slightly harder, Wormwood can still heal in combat. The beefalo often has to wait until the fight is over.

[NotGabriel]

Wait wait people are calling for nerfs on the Wendy Beefalo Synergy? Why? In this PvE Sandbox Survival game? Anywho as a Beefalo Hyperfixator I appreciate all the work that went into this post. I deadass sat in front of my notepad today trying to do math on beefalo damage numbers for a world I’m planning with a friend. Beefalo have become such a cornerstone of my playstyle that it would be disheartening if the mechanic was nerfed in anyway. People act like they’re this overpowered meat shield but I have to ask if those people have experienced the emotional rollercoaster that raising, fighting with, and losing their beefalo is. Have these players ever TRIED healing their beefalo while also avoiding the hungry raid boss closing in because if you get too far the fight resets? Have you ever screamed at your monitor because your taming beefalo won’t let you ride after you FED THEM THREE TIMES AND THE DEPTHS WORMS ARE NOW EATING MY FACE BECAUSE YOU WOULDNT LET ME ON NOOOOO-

It’s not easy being a Beef Parent and we deserve to have a rewarding experience. And it’s really fun discovering character/beefalo synergies. The whole “you’re playing as the beefalo” thing makes no sense. I’m not playing as a beefalo I’m playing as Wormwood riding my Beefalo named Whopper and utilizing my bramble husk for AoE damage and Moonshroom Cloud to keep him safe. Whopper is my little buddy and his well being is just as important as Wormwood’s in my mind.

 

 

I'm sorry for this unhinged rant