Why these skill trees are bad

[WeWoWa]

Hello, sorry for my English it's not my first language, but I really want to share my opinion. I main Wendy, and I think the reason why people (myself included) are so disappointed with her skill tree is because it's actually quite boring and weak. I've always loved Wendy I played her long before her rework, and I even created this account because I have an idea on how to improve her.

For me, I was eagerly waiting for her skill tree, hoping that it would expand on her paranormal abilities. To me, Wendy has always been a medium, but in the game, the only connection she has to ghosts is Abigail. Why is Willow’s skill tree the best one so far? It’s because her character evolves from a simple pyromaniac girl to a pyromaniac with superpowers. This makes her so much more interesting and fun to play. I want the same kind of evolution for Wendy.

I have a few ideas. For example, Winona has her glasses, which let her see Charlie's things and perceive the world differently. When I saw that, I thought Wendy could have something similar—not glasses specifically, but a passive ability or a toggleable one that lets her see "the other side" (a ghostly world). She could interact with ghosts and use her vision to create unique gameplay opportunities. Maybe she could even travel to this parallel ghost world, which would mirror the normal one in shape but offer new things to explore and do. When she leaves the ghost world and returns to the normal one, she would reappear in the corresponding location.

Another idea is that Wendy could leave her body and become a ghost herself, with the ability to return to her physical form whenever she wants. This would make her a much more interesting and fascinating character to play.

As for Walter, I’m not as experienced with him, but I think his skill tree is also boring. It doesn’t do anything to make him unique or fun to play. Similarly, Wortox feels strong, but he’s still not very engaging. Wortox players were probably hoping for new powers that let him use souls in more creative and exciting ways.

Again, I’m sorry if my English is hard to understand, but I hope my points come across clearly, and I don’t sound foolish.

[Kvetevk]

Because the skill trees balance the characters in some ways.
For example: Wolfgang, character who does not need anything added just got planar buff and some other small stuff in his skill tree
Willow who was almost never played and was called a troll or a griefing character got a strong skill tree to make her better
Wendy is pretty op, she can just destroy spiders and bees without anything, so Klei made her skill tree not so op (I thought she would get the wolfgang treatment, but she didnt)
for Winona, she was called a swap character but she was pretty op with her settup, her skill tree + changes made her unique and she doesnt need that many catapults like before because you can now relocate them and make them fire faster, making them kill anything faster.

Also skill trees are added so players will be able to choose skills for theire playstyle.
instead of Klei giving them straight buffs (because some people will hate the change and others will enjoy it)
It would be unreasonable to make op skill tree for op character

[mima_]

i also wish wendy skill tree will thematically better. half of her skill tree is about her sister. i wish it will revolve a bit more to wendy herself.
i wish there more paranormal abilities that she have with ghost maybe calling dead player to sisturn, having a way to have jar of ghostly essence by suckin ghost from grave to empty bottle/jar that she can chug to have her possesed with more power or having her possessed by abigail 

[Kvetevk]

The underlined skills are wendy's personal skills
The circled skills are usless (probably will change)
Other skills are Abigails

7 minutes ago, mima_ said:

i also wish wendy skill tree will thematically better. half of her skill tree is about her sister. i wish it will revolve a bit more to wendy herself.
i wish there more paranormal abilities that she have with ghost maybe calling dead player to sisturn, having a way to have jar of ghostly essence by suckin ghost from grave to empty bottle/jar that she can chug to have her possesed with more power or having her possessed by abigail 

What do you suggest should be changed in the current skill tree?

[HowlVoid]

Wendy got her supernatural powers before skill trees in the form of pipspooks and potions. Why do people forget she already got her buff before skilltrees where a thing? She only needs qol stuff now imo and maybe improve some of her worse potions (shield + reflect potions).

[mima_]

1 minute ago, HowlVoid said:

Wendy got her supernatural powers before skill trees in the form of pipspooks and potions.

still both of them was to buff abigail 

[TabbyTheNeko]

5 minutes ago, KvetekSK said:

Wendy is pretty op, she can just destroy spiders and bees without anything, so Klei made her skill tree not so op (I thought she would get the wolfgang treatment, but she didnt)
 

See the thing is, Wendy isn't op. Spiders and bees are not threats when you consider the kinds of updates we've been getting

you think Abigail is gonna face off against crystal bearger or crystal deerclops? no. at least with normal deerclops you could reasonably be able to kill deerclops before she kills Abigail, but like, that doesn't happen for the lunar variants of bearger, clops, and vargs. what about the shadow rift enemies in the cave? Abigail already doesn't attack nightmare creatures (the other summon in the game, bernie, definitely does though), so her usefulness down there is against things like bats and nightmare splumonkeys. 

The main problem with Wendy as a character is that without Abigail, she's just Wilson but does less damage and loses less sanity. This comparison doesn't even work anymore since Wilson's skill tree actually adds stuff. And while Abigail is pretty good, she's a liability when it comes to enemies that do a lot of damage and/or have a lot of health. And those types of enemies are the only enemies we've been getting for the couple of years.

The point of the skill trees is to buff up characters so that they'll be uniquely useful in the end game. By uniquely useful I mean the characters actually have different gameplay in the end game. With how Wendy's skill tree is going, Abigail is going to be more of a liability then an asset during post-rift content, which will lead to many players simply un-summoning Abigail and going without her, Which will basically just lead to playing as a character that does 75% damage and loses 25% less sanity from monsters with a bit of extra max sanity.

That's all Wendy is without Abigail. And you will be without Abigail for the majority of rift-content.

[HowlVoid]

1 minute ago, mima_ said:

still both of them was to buff abigail 

She also got the hex which was a damage boost to wendy. And to be honest these things are better as her base kit then things you gotta waste skill points on to get. 

[mima_]

6 minutes ago, KvetekSK said:

What do you suggest should be changed in the current skill tree?

i would love the vengeful ghost to be switch to that summoning dead teammate ghost to wendy sisturn . i found this skill is not worth your points atm 

[Kvetevk]

2 minutes ago, mima_ said:

i would love the vengeful ghost to be switch to that summoning dead teammate ghost to wendy sisturn . i found this skill is not worth your points atm 

Alright, Its bit of a funny perk, it seems to be quite good when playing with friends against a boss, but didnt wortox get a new way to revive players?
Well argument could be made so that players revived at sisturn will get health penalty but also some other buff

[Mike23Ua]

5 minutes ago, HowlVoid said:

Wendy got her supernatural powers before skill trees in the form of pipspooks and potions. Why do people forget she already got her buff before skilltrees where a thing? She only needs qol stuff now imo and maybe improve some of her worse potions (shield + reflect potions).

Broken and boring.

All the “Pipspook” serve to do is provide a Wendy exclusive currency that’s only use is to craft Ectho potions that can only be used on Abigail.

Please tell me how often you see a good majority of those potions even getting used..? I suggest we remove all of the useless ones no one ever uses and instead we give Wendy herself some cool stuff she can do (I really want to see a Abigail Possessed glowing Eyed Wendy who can levitate over gaps of land)

The skill tree can either Shorten the Pipspook Quests or Increase make them longer but they only currently yield more Mourning Glory which again- Are only used to craft the very same potions she already had that no one uses..

I think most Wendy mains use 3 at best of them?? Leaving the rest to fall out of use.

Now if doing the longer Pipspook quest granted Wendy cool ghostly weapons or toys (like a paradox box that could be used to suck in nearby butterflies like an AoE BugNet..)

Spoiler

Then and Only THEN would I understand the value and fun behind longer Pipspook quests…

And if we got “Abby Possessed Wendy” (triggered by commanding Abigail to haunt Wendy herself) perhaps those very some mourning glory that see next to little use could be used as a fuel source to longer sustain the possession phase? 

[Kvetevk]

12 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Please tell me how often you see a good majority of those potions even getting used..? I suggest we remove all of the useless ones no one ever uses and instead we give Wendy herself some cool stuff she can do (I really want to see a Abigail Possessed glowing Eyed Wendy who can levitate over gaps of land)

 

Or instead of removing potions, they make wendy drink the potions
for example: the speed potion (invisibility)
the dmg potion (well dmg)
the new lunar and shadow (planar defense and dmg for wendy)
Just let her drink it and we would have some fun in the game

 

Some funny idea came to my mind just now:
what if wendy had a skill that allowed her to make a special flower like she have but the flower would be given to other players/survivors that are not wendy
they could use the flower on any ghost (except player and abigail ghosts) and capture them like beefalo bell on beefalo
making them sort of like a pokeball, players could have theire own ghost that would be weaker than wendy's ghost (abigail)

[Kvetevk]

Just now, Fitzee said:

I'd rather it give Wendy actual speed, personally. 

it was only example, because I dont remember all her potions :P

[TabbyTheNeko]

15 minutes ago, KvetekSK said:

Or instead of removing potions, they make wendy drink the potions
for example: the speed potion (invisibility)
the dmg potion (well dmg)
the new lunar and shadow (planar defense and dmg for wendy)
Just let her drink it and we would have some fun in the game

 

i definitely think wendy should take on more of a magician role in the game, similar to her uncle maxwell, but where maxwell uses nightmares and shadows, wendy would use ghosts and the undead/supernatural.

But given how the skill tree already is, and how klei seems to have already set their mind on the type of skill tree she'll have, i think a decent compromise if they're unwilling to shift to something like the above would be to have one of her skills/perks allow her to give abigail more than one buff at a time. there are moments where im using a distilled vengence on abigail against a frog rain that i then have to swap to a spectral cure-all to make sure she doesn't die, and then that specrtral cure-all removes the distilled vengence buff

It just feels like a majority of the potions wendy can make are useless. the only meaningful one is spectral cure-all, and that one is just a basic healing potion.

[Kvetevk]

10 minutes ago, TabbyTheNeko said:

i definitely think wendy should take on more of a magician role in the game, similar to her uncle maxwell, but where maxwell uses nightmares and shadows, wendy would use ghosts and the undead/supernatural.

I agree that wendy should have more ghost related stuff, seeing that klei can change the player ghosts mechanics is just a sad to see that she doesnt have more player ghost mechanics that could change the system a bit
like the skins also change the visuals of ghosts (for most characters) it is just sad that the player ghosts dont have more interactions and are there just for finding touch stone or getting revived by others.

[Peasant]

4 hours ago, KvetekSK said:

Wendy is pretty op, she can just destroy spiders and bees without anything

That's hardly the defination for op as I know… Wendy's problem is that though she can do this for free, those who can do this but not for free can do it better than her, making her only better than the others at the very beginning of the game. I've wrote a long article about this, you can drop by it if you're interested.

4 hours ago, KvetekSK said:

Also skill trees are added so players will be able to choose skills for theire playstyle.
instead of Klei giving them straight buffs (because some people will hate the change and others will enjoy it)
It would be unreasonable to make op skill tree for op character

And that's what klei failed to do in Wendy's skilltree, nether did they added anything that can provide a whole new playstyle, nor did they add any straight buffs, thus making almost everyone unpleased.

Another thing that confuses me is that the poster themself didnt mention anything like "I want an op skilltree for Wendy pls", so why are you warning about op skilltree puzzles me.

[kroban]

8 hours ago, WeWoWa said:

As for Walter, I’m not as experienced with him, but I think his skill tree is also boring. It doesn’t do anything to make him unique or fun to play.

Thats like, your opinion man. I main Walter and for me his definitive skill tree will be soooo good.

Like what do you mean by not making him unique? Lets see:

- He now has an unique, pretty solid range weapon with 10+ new ammos, making a total of 17 different ammos, most of them with different effects which means a lot of versatility in different aspects of the game. And some of the ammo isnt even finished yet like, we dont know what pure brilliance and horror will do, and as far as I am aware Klei is even planning an effect for gunpowder and dreadstone rounds too.

- The slingshot got 2 different modes to play it that are both pretty good on their own.

- Woby herself is also getting a lot of cool things. And Klei even said that they are still cooking up more things for her to be an alternative to Beefalos in her unique way

- And on top of all this, they are thinking about also adding special effects for the slingshot frames depending on the ammo.

Like honestly, I know im biased but for me the end result will most likely be the best skill tree ever. Klei is damn cooking with Walter's skill tree.

[Evelo]

8 hours ago, WeWoWa said:

Why is Willow’s skill tree the best one so far?

Depends on who you ask. I think hers is the worst one by far because it was a re-refresh instead of a skillset. Besides that I do appreciate how you went about explaining your issues, need more of that.

[Kvetevk]

15 hours ago, YXukun said:

And that's what klei failed to do in Wendy's skilltree, nether did they added anything that can provide a whole new playstyle, nor did they add any straight buffs, thus making almost everyone unpleased.

Another thing that confuses me is that the poster themself didnt mention anything like "I want an op skilltree for Wendy pls", so why are you warning about op skilltree puzzles me.

Tanking with the new dark petal dress, gestalt abigail, no I dont see any different ways to play her

op skilltrees = some characters will have better and more fun skill trees than others, they can be more op or more fun, wanting better skills because other characters have them better or just more enjoyable doesnt mean everyone will get the same, all Im trying to say is that you should be happy that you we got some intresting perks

As a wilson main, Im happy for what wilson got, even if it they were not op or funny skills
if you are not happy that you got free stuff that adds to your character, then you need to rethink your way of approach to these new skill trees (they are not refreshes)

[TabbyTheNeko]

41 minutes ago, KvetekSK said:

if you are not happy that you got free stuff that adds to your character, then you need to rethink your way of approach to these new skill trees (they are not refreshes)

so we should just accept anything that klei gives us even if it's hot garbage?

that's not how loving the game or its characters works. we're critical and want better because we love the game and we know klei can do better. they've done it in the past. just that for whatever reason they're deciding to make it not good and they're just avoiding addressing any of the issues wendy has.

wendy isn't viable late game. abigail is a liability in post rift content more often then not, and without abigail, wendy is just a wilson without a skill tree who does 25% less damage, and has some extra sanity. with this skill tree update, she will still be just a 75% damage wilson with some extra sanity without abigial

[Kvetevk]

1 hour ago, TabbyTheNeko said:

so we should just accept anything that klei gives us even if it's hot garbage?

skill trees are optional, its not like you are forced to use them, but yes if you think some skills are "garbage" you can make a thread about it and even argue about the change, but do it respectfully and gracefuly
 

 

1 hour ago, TabbyTheNeko said:

wendy isn't viable late game. abigail is a liability in post rift content more often then not, and without abigail, wendy is just a wilson without a skill tree who does 25% less damage, and has some extra sanity. with this skill tree update, she will still be just a 75% damage wilson with some extra sanity without abigial

thats why there is a gestalt abi, she does big damage to single targets, and with the planar weapons she has a bit more dmg than with darksword because the planar dmg isnt affected by characters dmg buffs or debuffs

with my testing, gestalt abi could easily defeat the planar creatures

and yes I do agree to make abi more planar than she is now but its unreasonable to give wendy planar skills (except the crafting of affinitie potions)

1 hour ago, TabbyTheNeko said:

wendy isn't viable late game. abigail is a liability in post rift content more often then not, and without abigail, wendy is just a wilson without a skill tree who does 25% less damage, and has some extra sanity. with this skill tree update, she will still be just a 75% damage wilson with some extra sanity without abigial

She was ment to be played with abi, the bond between twin sisters, playing as wendy without abi is like and should be like playing just wilson with 75% dmg