Out of curiosity, by what metric is Wendy judged as a "powerful" character, but not Wigfrid?

[WenericMember]

If I recall correctly before skill trees Wigfrid and Wendy were two of the most popular characters in the game, and were considered roughly even in power prior to skill trees. So I am  just curious what the deciding factor between the design philosphy of the two trees was.

[Bumber64]

Wigfrid got beefalo stuff shoved in her tree. The good stuff was the equipment, which is equivalent to shroud and gestalt form.

What's the difference in philosophy?

[erick was right]

Devs (to some communities) don't play the game => easy characters = powerful characters for them.

 

You can see it how much they buffed Wortox but they didn't give a single f about wendy or wigfrid...

[WenericMember]

9 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Wigfrid got beefalo stuff shoved in her tree. The good stuff was the equipment, which is equivalent to shroud and gestalt form.

What's the difference in philosophy?

Wigfrid got 3 new combat items that doubled down on her primary character strength, with multiple additional skills for each, plus the designers never mentioned anything about designing her to be weaker like they did for Wendy. There's a slight difference between "a few filler/flavour skills" and what Wendy ended up with.

It's better now, but also at launch the values for pretty much every skill in her tree at the start of the beta were also woefully undertuned.

I don't think there's any indication that there wasn't a difference in philosophy.

[Bumber64]

19 minutes ago, Cosiek said:

You can see it how much they buffed Wortox but they didn't give a single f about wendy or wigfrid...

Are you going to argue that Wortox was strong before? Halved stats from food, can't recruit pigs and bunnymen. Other characters began getting teleports. Woven with spools.

He needed it even more than Walter, and Klei had to remove knabsack requirements in an update because it was infecting the rest of the naughty branch with inventory stuffing.

12 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

the designers never mentioned anything about designing her to be weaker like they did for Wendy.

Did people immediately complain as much? A bunch of users joined the forums just to complain about Wendy.

[Dingle]

Wigfrids tree is mostly pretty skippable filler (for most part, some debate here). The exceptions are the song container, the little boost to her battle helmet, and of course the big whammy that is the spear once you upgrade it.

So Wendy will probably get some toys, her potion container, a tiny boost to something she uses often, and then one good new thing that is behind a lategame wall.

I'd say Wendy actually is getting more useful stuff so far just because the pipspook perks are great.

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Did people immediately complain as much? A bunch of people joined the forums just to complain about Wendy.

I think Wigfrid got an amount of complains similar to initial beta Wortox.

It's kinda hard to compare though because Wigfrids, while having the Beefalo skills, was unlike Wendy's who suffered from poor balancing, filler skills, generally an overall lack of focus.

 

3 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Wigfrids tree is mostly pretty skippable filler (for most part, some debate here). The exceptions are the song container, the little boost to her battle helmet, and of course the big whammy that is the spear once you upgrade it.

So Wendy will probably get some toys, her potion container, a tiny boost to something she uses often, and then one good new thing that is behind a lategame wall.

I'd say Wendy actually is getting more useful stuff so far just because the pipspook perks are great.

Interesting, the shield is pretty well received too, and the helm, while weaker than the other two, at least has some uses.

Interestingly i feel like the Beefalo skills are about on par with Wendy's Sisturn Skills, and while they aren't as useful in singleplayer, they're a pretty good set of skills in MP.

That said, it would be hilarious combo of Wendy & Wigfrid for spamming Warriors reprise & Vengeful ghost.

[Mysterious box]

9 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

It's kinda hard to compare though because Wigfrids, while having the Beefalo skills, was unlike Wendy's who suffered from poor balancing, filler skills, generally an overall lack of focus.

Worth mentioning that most of Wigfrids non skill tree perks require her to not be on a beefalo then they gave her a beefalo specialization also a fair bit of her skills were under tuned at first

[Dingle]

I think in the end the shield is mostly for newer Wigfrid players. Theres not a lot of cases where it's better than kiting with a ham bat. Bishops and maybe one or two other cases. And of course the spear blows it out of the water.

I remember it getting nerfed hard in beta, too, because of knee jerk reactions. Same with warriors reprise.

I guess the same happened to the flower dress. People didn't think much of it, but in hindsight it could let you do things like ignore Winter and Summer and starvation, or facetank some bosses.

[grm9]

20 minutes ago, Dingle said:

So Wendy will probably get some toys, her potion container

they're probably giving containers to everyone except those that need them, wigfrid has like 3 or maybe 4 useful songs and got a 12 slots container for them and wendy also uses only like 2 or 3 poitons so ig that'd add up

7 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Bishops and maybe one or two other cases

iirc the cd's too slow to block every bishop attack so you'll only block half of them, could've just killed it with a weapon at that point since you already have life steal, shield's just for shadow pieces and dfly

[WenericMember]

3 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Worth mentioning that most of Wigfrids non skill tree perks require her to not be on a beefalo then they gave her a beefalo specialization also a fair bit of her skills were under tuned at first

I feel like the Beefalo branch has a lot in common with the dark Petals skills in Wendy's skill tree. They both are primarily flavour perks with at least a gameplay vision: the beefalo re designed to be ridden around prior to combat to build Inspiration, and give Wigfrid a "phase 1" and "phase 2" type feel on and off the beefalo, while Wendy's grave/dark petals skills are designed to give convenient sources of Petals, Nightmare fuel & Flower shrouds.

[Dingle]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

 

iirc the cd's too slow to block every bishop attack so you'll only block half of them, could've just killed it with a weapon at that point since you already have life steal, shield's just for shadow pieces and dfly

Works on bishops but the timing is tight if I remember right. I'd much rather kite dfly. Shadow Rook and maybe celestial champ phase 1 are good shield uses, but at that point I think it's not so much useful as the player trying to justify using the shield at all.

[Gashzer]

53 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

If I recall correctly before skill trees Wigfrid and Wendy were two of the most popular characters in the game, and were considered roughly even in power prior to skill trees. So I am  just curious what the deciding factor between the design philosphy of the two trees was.

What make both these characters popular and "powerful" is convenience. 

Wendy skilltree seems to streamline getting and using elixirs while giving skills to boost abigail verses bosses. AOE bosses being Wendy's primary weakness. While day to day horde mobs like hounds and spiders are a breeze preskilltree.

Wigfrid is really good against bosses but lacks day to day utility outside of combat hence the beefalo taming boost. A tamed beefalo's strongest ability is its speed not its combat prowess so wigfrid taming a beefalo faster with inspiration boost helps immensely with day to day QOL outside of boss fights.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

I'd much rather kite dfly

the 1st hit after aggro if you weren't within it's melee range when aggroing it and the hits after enraged stomps if you didn't tank the stomp before the hit require either tanking them or using a projectile for stunning dfly and proccing a stationary hit instead, so you could use it for those

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

celestial champ phase 1

why even

2 minutes ago, Dingle said:

but at that point I think it's not so much useful as the player trying to justify using the shield at all

not really, iirc you can do entire t3 shadow rook with 1 shield and still have like 4% durability left on it for using it for 1 parry on 1st dfly hit, i don't see a reason for not using it for that unless you have something better to spend the point on      

[WenericMember]

4 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

What make both these characters popular and "powerful" is convenience. 

Wendy skilltree seems to streamline getting and using elixirs while giving skills to boost abigail verses bosses. AOE bosses being Wendy's primary weakness. While day to day horde mobs like hounds and spiders are a breeze preskilltree.

Wigfrid is really good against bosses but lacks day to day utility outside of combat hence the beefalo taming boost. A tamed beefalo's strongest ability is its speed not its combat prowess so wigfrid taming a beefalo faster with inspiration boost helps immensely with day to day QOL outside of boss fights.

I agree about that, I was just wondering why their original similar power level resulted in Wigfrid getting a pretty typically strong skill tree, while Wendy's was designed to be weak.

[Dingle]

33 minutes ago, grm9 said:

why even

not really, iirc you can do entire t3 shadow rook with 1 shield and still have like 4% durability left on it for using it for 1 parry on 1st dfly hit, i don't see a reason for not using it for that unless you have something better to spend the point on      

Celestial phase 1: The flop around the map attack stops early if it hits you. Blocks count.

Interesting on the Rook!

I just let dfly thwack me on first hit because wigfrid helmets are cheap and she regens health.

I struggle to spend her last two points because everything is so meager for her at that point. Maybe I'll just the shield next time just for the first shadow rook fight (in the second you can just use the spear to dodge)

25 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I agree about that, I was just wondering why their original similar power level resulted in Wigfrid getting a pretty typically strong skill tree, while Wendy's was designed to be weak.

Are you really wondering? I'm wondering if you're really wondering.

Maybe wigfrids was designed to be weak too? They just didn't say at the time as to their design intent. She got a new end game weapon, mostly.

I'd argue pipspooks giving you twice as much mourning glories, more convenienty, is already better than most of what Wigfrid got. Wendy is also getting a way to armor Abigail, which sounds very strong.

This mostly seems like an indirect way to plead for buffs for your preferred character tbh. Why not just directly ask?

[Mysterious box]

45 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I agree about that, I was just wondering why their original similar power level resulted in Wigfrid getting a pretty typically strong skill tree, while Wendy's was designed to be weak.

Honestly the more I look at it Wendy's tree definitely feels pretty strong in terms of impact I'm still kind of having trouble understanding why people are calling it weak.

[Mike23Ua]

31 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Wigfrids tree is mostly pretty skippable filler (for most part, some debate here). The exceptions are the song container, the little boost to her battle helmet, and of course the big whammy that is the spear once you upgrade it.

So Wendy will probably get some toys, her potion container, a tiny boost to something she uses often, and then one good new thing that is behind a lategame wall.

I'd say Wendy actually is getting more useful stuff so far just because the pipspook perks are great.

Haha the Pipspook perks in my humble opinion are completely and utterly dismissible.

I draw this conclusion for two reasons: 1- it only serves to make the quest shorter, or longer but with more morning glory yields.

And 2- Thats swell and everything… BUT I had no problem whatsoever with Pipspook without these perks, and if I needed more glory I just found another grave to do Pipspook quests from.

Now let’s compare that to Wigfrid who got the ability to revive Beefalo from the dead, a spear that can be used with infinity durability that can cross gaps of land, self repairing helmets and a shield that when timed correctly, negates all incoming damage.

If the Pipspook longer Pipspook quests rewarded Wendy with new exclusive Weapons and tools such as just spitballing ideas here…

A “Spirit Box” which could be used to suck in creatures like an infinite durability Bugnet or whatever… then maybe I could see and understand everyone’s mass enjoyment of the Pipspook changes.

Spoiler

But for the most part Wendys Skill tree until upcoming changes are adjusted just seems to be “do what she already did but do it slightly better” 

Im super excited to see what Klei does with “haunt” & the ability to craft or move tombstones, But sadly that’s about it.

[WenericMember]

24 minutes ago, Dingle said:

Are you really wondering? I'm wondering if you're really wondering.

Maybe wigfrids was designed to be weak too? They just didn't say at the time as to their design intent. She got a new end game weapon, mostly.

I'd argue pipspooks giving you twice as much mourning glories, more convenienty, is already better than most of what Wigfrid got. Wendy is also getting a way to armor Abigail, which sounds very strong.

This mostly seems like an indirect way to plead for buffs for your preferred character tbh. Why not just directly ask?

I... have? I've made a number of posts with feedback and suggestions, many of which were incorporated into the last dev post.

Wigfrid's skill tree didn't go into beta in a state where half here skills were literal worse versions of things already widely available to Wendy.

I'm asking this because I'm curious about rationale for the decision's I'm objecting to, and to judge how future skill trees will be handled, for the actual Top Tiers (Maxwell & Wickerbottom) or other popular characters. It'll also be easier to make suggestions compatable with being added based on what they define as "strong"

12 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

Honestly the more I look at it Wendy's tree definitely feels pretty strong in terms of impact I'm still kind of having trouble understanding why people are calling it weak.

To me, its in a decent place now (could still use a few more improvements tho), but I think its because at the start of the beta it made a horrible first impression that will take a lot to recover from + Wendy's popularity means there's an expectation that a high amount of effort put into it ig (I don't believe its necessary but that seems to be the case).

At the start of the tree, i'd say the following skills were all but worthless:

• Potions Skill Line (Improved pipspooks already fixed potion economy, and duration was rarely an issue)
• Shadow Alignments II and III (Both had minimal improvements over base abigail)
• Blessed sisturn III (100 HP is less than a single attack from most boss mobs)
• Dark Petals I (Regular petals are dime a dozen)
• Gravestone I, II, III (Decorated Gravestones cost more petals to produce than they made, meaning haunting was a better production method of dark petals)
• Team Spirit I (Currently a slightly different version of simply unsummoning Abigail).

With the changes most of these issues are fixed, but to call the first impression it made bad is an understatement.

[Dingle]

7 minutes ago, Mike23Ua said:

Now let’s compare that to Wigfrid who got the ability to revive Beefalo from the dead, a spear that can be used with infinity durability that can cross gaps of land, self repairing helmets and a shield that when timed correctly, negates all incoming damage

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Wigfrid can revive Beefalo with her perks? How does she do this?

Whether the helmet or shield you mention is worth it is pretty contested among wigfrids as being worth anything. If you want similar for Wendy, I'm saying that is a monkey's paw kind of wish haha

[Mysterious box]

3 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Blessed sisturn III (100 HP is less than a single attack from most boss mobs)

I feel like this wasn't meant for boss fights.

 

3 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Shadow Alignments II and III (Both had minimal improvements over base abigail)

This one I agreed with since it did seem lackluster

 

6 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Gravestone I, II, III (Decorated Gravestones cost more petals to produce than they made,

I thought the production was kept going though?

That aside it feels like the way they're changing the shroud seems very overturned but I'll reserve final judgement on that until I see it in action

[WenericMember]

8 minutes ago, Mysterious box said:

I feel like this wasn't meant for boss fights.

 

This one I agreed with since it did seem lackluster

 

I thought the production was kept going though?

That aside it feels like the way they're changing the shroud seems very overturned but I'll reserve final judgement on that until I see it in action

Its overheal iirc, which is temporary hp and so probably designed for extended fights. Could be for especially large hordes but that just seems overkill.

Currently, graves cost 3 petals to beautify, last 6 days, produce one petal every three days, which when purified is a net gain of -1 Petal.

The updated shroud could go a lot of ways, mostly depending on how they handle durability (if they don't reduce durability loss each hit on Abi could destroy 1/3 of a football helmet), but yes, we should reserve judgement.

[Dingle]

12 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

I... have? I've made a number of posts with feedback and suggestions, many of which were incorporated into the last dev post.

Wigfrid's skill tree didn't go into beta in a state where half here skills were literal worse versions of things already widely available to Wendy.

I'm asking this because I'm curious about rationale for the decision's I'm objecting to, and to judge how future skill trees will be handled, for the actual Top Tiers (Maxwell & Wickerbottom) or other popular characters. It'll also be easier to make suggestions compatable with being added based on what they define as "strong"

I really liked how they provided rationale last hotfix. They usually don't. I hope you don't make them regret doing so.

Do you play Wigfrid at all? For the most part I consider her saddle, new helmet, and shield worse versions of what she already had (any other saddle, her regular battle helmets, and a ham bat, respectively).

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Currently, graves cost 3 petals to beautify, last 6 days, produce one petal every three days, which when purified is a net gain of -1 Petal.

Okay that was definitely a bad idea on their part.

6 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

The updated shroud could go a lot of ways, mostly depending on how they handle durability (if they don't reduce durability loss each hit on Abi could destroy 1/3 of a football helmet), but yes, we should reserve judgement.

I'd say the damage reduction should probably drop to around 50 percent but yea I do think it should be fine to see how it plays out first.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

I really liked how they provided rationale last hotfix. They usually don't. I hope you don't make them regret doing so.

Do you play Wigfrid at all? For the most part I consider her saddle, new helmet, and shield worse versions of what she already had (any other saddle, her regular battle helmets, and a ham bat, respectively).

I would appreciate it if you stopped making assumptions about me based on nothing. It feels really demeaning.

She's not my main or anything, but I have maxxed her insight tree by playing normally. Personally, I think the costs for her new recipes are slightly too high, but like their effects. The shields cool and encourages a different kind of playstyle, and Defensive items in a hand slot is fun to use without having to specifically beat the twins of tewrror. I like the beefalo saddle just because Mobs take so much damage, and I'm happy with the base damage & speed of regular beefalo. The helmet has ok utility between self repair, kb and wetness resistance but is certainly the weakest of her skill tree.