Why is Wrathful Rabbit King not a boss/miniboss?

[Antynomity]

On 10/27/2024 at 10:10 AM, Tranoze said:

If    is there, i wonder why    is not there, as rock lobster literally better than treeguard.
What is a boss?

Unique loots :  (No other mobs/boss in the game drop this.)
An unusual way of summoning: (no other units in the game spawn from this.)
Bossfight without his henchmen

We need a big butterfly/normal dragonfly boss like that one minecraft mod from eons ago

[Creatorofswamps]

6 hours ago, Arcwell said:

Considered giant (clearly smol):

compared to an ordinary fly, he's just Monstrous gigantic

[Milordo]

16 hours ago, arubaro said:

Well, abeve they got the point. Isnt a giant but a small creature 

It's not about size or aesthetic aspects that determine who is a boss or not, just look at Lord of the fruit flies. The rules are made by Klei or if we interfere them and these rules are being broken and changed again and again everytime by Klei. That's why Klei being Klei. Treeguard is a boss fight because it was the first boss fight in the game. Even this mini-boss state that the community always brings doesn't make sense because it's not what Klei has classified or choosed.... for now. All these discussions and this post either is all fluff. We still don't have now 100% the design rules of what makes a boss, imagine years later (if ds is still alive). So the least we can do as we always did, is influence Klei into adding him in the boss list and call it a day. 

@Arcwell made it clear too.

15 hours ago, Ridley said:

I suspect a lot of people don't encounter the Wrathful Rabbit King which might be why there is not more chatter about it. I couldn't even figure out how to summon the Benevolent Rabbit King without looking it up.

This is true because many people you may know are already normal, mediocre, strong, veterans, ecc... This statement will be false in the future, as time pass, many new blind players are encountering him very commonly, as it happened to my members. It's even worse if you imagine that people will discover more easily his boss fight version and not his benevolent side and think only his "dark" side exists.

I DESPISE Rabbit King mechanic.

11 hours ago, Echsrick said:

ok but how do you explain the NORMAL version of this not to be a giant then?

Klei being Klei.

[Bumber64]

9 hours ago, SOS-Ouroboros-K said:

Shadow Pieces：What's wrong with that?

（Before Promotion, Shadow Pieces does not carry the [epic] label.）

Possessed Varg's colleagues were Armored Bearger and Crystal Deerclops, so it was.

But for Varg and Gingerbread Varg? They are Ewecus, Koalefant, Beefalo and Grass Gator.

……

Can we breed over 200 bosses in the prairie?

 

Gingerbread Varg：What can I say...

Pig King & King of the Merms & Queen of Moon Quay: What?

I've literally no clue what you're talking about in this entire post.

Ewecus and koalaphant are too weak to be bosses. (You didn't mention MacTusk, but he's same.)

Beefalo and gator are too weak and too common. (Gator respawns after 2 min.)

Gingerbread varg not summoning hounds makes him arguably too weak. (For example, LotFF certainly wouldn't qualify as a boss without his minions.)

The last three: Yes, what? You can't even fight these.

[SOS-Ouroboros-K]

54 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I've literally no clue what you're talking about in this entire post.

Ewecus and koalaphant are too weak to be bosses. (You didn't mention MacTusk, but he's same.)

Beefalo and gator are too weak and too common. (Gator respawns after 2 min.)

Gingerbread varg not summoning hounds makes him arguably too weak. (For example, LotFF certainly wouldn't qualify as a boss without his minions.)

The last three: Yes, what? You can't even fight these.

But the Reanimated Skeleton is also belong to mini Giant, and the same Treeguard does not actively attack the player,  So whether a creature is a Giant or not doesn't depend on how strong or hostile it is.

←The amiable producer of cave plants

Grass Gator and Koalefant are variants of Beefalo. Ewecus and Varg are Enemy versions of Koalefant. Gingerbread Varg and Varg, as the predecessors of Possessed Varg, are even more equivalent. They're all from the same series. To say that Varg is the BOSS and Gingerbread Varg is not is like saying that Nightmare Werepig and Shadow Bishop are bosses and Scrappy Werepig and Shadow Rook are not.

At the same time, Shadow Pieces wasn't a Giant before the upgrade, so similarly, Possessed Varg being a giant obviously doesn't mean Varg and Gingerbread Varg are.

By the way, Steel Wool is even one of the Loot Stash drops. The difficulty of Ewecus is absolutely sufficient, and solutions that can easily solve Ewecus often can easily solve Varg.

So in summary:

Varg should not be a BOSS, it was just a troublesome, powerful, but not quite enough epic enemy. Labeling it epic only makes the giant concept cheap.

54 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

The last three: Yes, what? You can't even fight these.

Because all four of them are, by design, masters of hunchback creatures.

also，

the King of the Merms will summon at least four Loyal Merm guards to attack those who attack him.
Pig King also has the ability to summon four Elite Pigs to challenge the player.

 

 

[Evelo]

12 hours ago, Arcwell said:

Not considered giant (clearly giant):

 

Not considered giant (clearly giant):
 

Considered giant (clearly smol):
 

These are excellent counter points. I concede. Thanks Arcwell.

[SOS-Ouroboros-K]

13 minutes ago, Evelo said:

These are excellent counter points. I concede. Thanks Arcwell.

Well，Giant's internal label appears to be epic.

[arubaro]

2 hours ago, Milordo said:

t's not about size or aesthetic aspects that determine who is a boss or not

But the tag is called "giant"

[Bumber64]

4 hours ago, SOS-Ouroboros-K said:

But the Reanimated Skeleton is also belong to mini Giant, and the same Treeguard does not actively attack the player,  So whether a creature is a Giant or not doesn't depend on how strong or hostile it is.

Grass Gator and Koalefant are variants of Beefalo. Ewecus and Varg are Enemy versions of Koalefant. Gingerbread Varg and Varg, as the predecessors of Possessed Varg, are even more equivalent. They're all from the same series. To say that Varg is the BOSS and Gingerbread Varg is not is like saying that Nightmare Werepig and Shadow Bishop are bosses and Scrappy Werepig and Shadow Rook are not.

At the same time, Shadow Pieces wasn't a Giant before the upgrade, so similarly, Possessed Varg being a giant obviously doesn't mean Varg and Gingerbread Varg are.

By the way, Steel Wool is even one of the Loot Stash drops. The difficulty of Ewecus is absolutely sufficient, and solutions that can easily solve Ewecus often can easily solve Varg.

So in summary:

Varg should not be a BOSS, it was just a troublesome, powerful, but not quite enough epic enemy. Labeling it epic only makes the giant concept cheap.

Because all four of them are, by design, masters of hunchback creatures.

also，

the King of the Merms will summon at least four Loyal Merm guards to attack those who attack him.
Pig King also has the ability to summon four Elite Pigs to challenge the player.

Reanimated skeleton has epic health and insanity. More importantly is that it's AFW's body in a weakened state. (Like pre-fight CK, but that isn't treated as a separate mob. "Why do I hear boss music?") Open hostility isn't a requirement due to bearger and treeguard. You do need high health or something to set it apart.

I can't decipher the part about entirely unrelated mobs being asserted as "variants". I don't think gingerbread varg can be possessed. It seems to be magic gingerbread without true varg behaviors. Odd that you didn't call it a ewecus variant, because it definitely spits.

Shadow pieces do imply that transforming into a boss isn't enough, but varg has other boss traits. (Shadow piece fight+music doesn't begin proper until you've killed two, since they're very weak at first. They combine into a boss.) Rabit king wouldn't be a boss until wrathful, since a friendly trader shouldn't have boss music.

I don't see what steel wool has to do with anything. Ewecus doesn't summon, has less than half the health.

Does treeguard cheapen proper giants? Can't forget that it's a mini giant weaker than varg.

It's irrelevant they're a leader if they can't fight. Pig king and monkey queen can't even take damage or die.

Merm king can only summon guards once a day. Kind of like varglet, except he can't personally move or fight. Poison birchnut is the closest boss, but can spawn birchnutters constantly and has a ranged attack. (It's weird for not having normal health.)

[SOS-Ouroboros-K]

10 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Reanimated skeleton has epic health and insanity. More importantly is that it's AFW's body in a weakened state. (Like pre-fight CK, but that isn't treated as a separate mob. "Why do I hear boss music?") Open hostility isn't a requirement due to bearger and treeguard. You do need high health or something to set it apart.

It doesn't make sense because the Reanimated Skeleton doesn't attack at all, so he can't put up a fight, let alone an epic campaign.
Just like we don't think of Stagehand or Nightmare Light as a BOSS.
Considering the amount of health of a creature that the player can't see at all, this number is just one of the factors involved in the difficulty factor, rather than the final determinant of the creature's positioning.

10 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

I can't decipher the part about entirely unrelated mobs being asserted as "variants". I don't think gingerbread varg can be possessed. It seems to be magic gingerbread without true varg behaviors. Odd that you didn't call it a ewecus variant, because it definitely spits.

0:45

If I were to say, in the game Ewecus, Varg, and Gingerbread Varg are the same class of creatures, the enemy version of Koalefant.

10 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Shadow pieces do imply that transforming into a boss isn't enough, but varg has other boss traits. (Shadow piece fight+music doesn't begin proper until you've killed two, since they're very weak at first. They combine into a boss.) Rabit king wouldn't be a boss until wrathful, since a friendly trader shouldn't have boss music.

Annoying is not the same as leveling up, Reanimated Skeleton is the same for Ancient Fuelweaver as Benevolent Rabbit King is for Wrathful Rabbit King, Antlion is also a friendly trader in its normal state.

At the same time, there's no real "BOSS music" in the game, it's just a rumor, and even Deerclops and Moose/Goose and Bearger just use the two theme battle songs in their season.

A few general basic characteristics of other BOSS creatures (often with some exceptions in mini versions) are that they must be fought at a specific time or place, and that the player can escape from fighting them. Varg does not have the former and can appear anywhere in the forest world at any time.

10 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

I don't see what steel wool has to do with anything. Ewecus doesn't summon, has less than half the health.

Usually only BOSS Loot goes into the Loot Stash, obviously Ewecus loot is more like what a BOSS should give than Varg.

And on the other hand, what's the point of health? Players don't see that number at all, and they have to measure a creature's difficulty in a more realistic way. From this point of view, Ewecus has higher damage and more targeted attacks on the player, so its threat is not lower than the Varg with higher health. Ewecus' low health is designed to balance out the actual high damage it can do, just as Toadstool does not directly reduce your sanity. At the same time, all the Reanimated skeletons have only a quarter of the health of the Ancient Fuelweaver.

11 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Does treeguard cheapen proper giants? Can't forget that it's a mini giant weaker than varg.

Of course, so they were changed to mini bosses.

And first of all, Treeguard is no weaker than Varg.

In fact, "Treeguard is BOSS" seems to be a holdover from older versions, and Treeguards themselves do not match the level of the BOSS in DST. So this is a special case and not appropriate as a reference standard.

11 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

It's irrelevant they're a leader if they can't fight. Pig king and monkey queen can't even take damage or die.

Antlion & Crab King：Are we a joke to you?

 

[Bumber64]

On 10/29/2024 at 12:34 AM, SOS-Ouroboros-K said:

It doesn't make sense because the Reanimated Skeleton doesn't attack at all, so he can't put up a fight, let alone an epic campaign.
Just like we don't think of Stagehand or Nightmare Light as a BOSS.

I think this one is mostly just because Reanimated Skeleton is AFW. Making them non-boss would put them on a separate scrapbook page, which is disorganized. Also the caves version can certainly fight back.

On the flip side, the player also can't put up a fight against these two. Same problem as pig king and monkey queen: Combat actually impossible.

I notice there's a prickly stagehand, though. Stats look boss-like, but attack speed isn't mentioned on the wiki. ("Periodically, it will get up before the next attack and start walking.") It looks like it's just meant to be a punishment for interrupting a play, however. I don't see any loot mentioned.

On 10/29/2024 at 12:34 AM, SOS-Ouroboros-K said:

Considering the amount of health of a creature that the player can't see at all, this number is just one of the factors involved in the difficulty factor, rather than the final determinant of the creature's positioning.

The player experiences the health by the number of hits to kill. Otherwise correct.

Also a factor is how far in the game they're intended to be fought for the first time. Deadly brightshades aren't bosses because they're post-rifts. Poison birchnut remains a boss, even if it becomes trivial later.

On 10/29/2024 at 12:34 AM, SOS-Ouroboros-K said:

If I were to say, in the game Ewecus, Varg, and Gingerbread Varg are the same class of creatures, the enemy version of Koalefant.

Interesting that GB Varg can be possessed. Boss status is still up in the air, though, as turning into a boss isn't enough, per shadow pieces.

I wouldn't agree that they're the same class just from being found in hunts. They've got different health and offensive capabilities. Koalephant (1000hp, 50 melee) is basically just a stronger beefalo without allies. Ewecus (500hp, 60 melee, 5 ranged) and GB Varg (1800hp, 50 melee) have immobilizing abilities. Varg (1800hp, 50 melee) can summon endless waves of hounds.

On 10/29/2024 at 12:34 AM, SOS-Ouroboros-K said:

Annoying is not the same as leveling up, Reanimated Skeleton is the same for Ancient Fuelweaver as Benevolent Rabbit King is for Wrathful Rabbit King, Antlion is also a friendly trader in its normal state.

At the same time, there's no real "BOSS music" in the game, it's just a rumor, and even Deerclops and Moose/Goose and Bearger just use the two theme battle songs in their season.

Looks like Antlion has the "noepicmusic" tag, which suppresses boss music if you were to fight a non-boss mob while standing nearby. Antlion's fight music is triggered through custom code that plays a unique theme. So, clearly boss music isn't a rumor if there's literally a tag for it. Combat music is separated into "danger" and "epicfight" music for season/caves/ruins. Deerclops/bearger will share seasonal epic music with a treeguard, but it's distict from seasonal music played when fighting common mobs.

AFW skeletons lack the "noepicmusic" tag, so relevant (season/cave) epic music should play if you enter combat with/near them. He's got unique music tied to boss state, but that probably won't trigger outside the atrium fight. (E.g., it changes somehow when summoning woven shadows. Music volume?)

You can't really fight BR King, can you? He immediately transforms into WR King when attacked, I think? (You could probably one-shot him with gunpowder.) Making him a boss and giving him "noepicmusic" just means he'll show up under giants if you discover him. It's sort of pointless unless you just want to group them together, matching possible AFW skeleton reason.

On 10/29/2024 at 12:34 AM, SOS-Ouroboros-K said:

A few general basic characteristics of other BOSS creatures (often with some exceptions in mini versions) are that they must be fought at a specific time or place, and that the player can escape from fighting them. Varg does not have the former and can appear anywhere in the forest world at any time.

Usually only BOSS Loot goes into the Loot Stash, obviously Ewecus loot is more like what a BOSS should give than Varg.

And on the other hand, what's the point of health? Players don't see that number at all, and they have to measure a creature's difficulty in a more realistic way. From this point of view, Ewecus has higher damage and more targeted attacks on the player, so its threat is not lower than the Varg with higher health. Ewecus' low health is designed to balance out the actual high damage it can do, just as Toadstool does not directly reduce your sanity. At the same time, all the Reanimated skeletons have only a quarter of the health of the Ancient Fuelweaver.

Varg is hunt only. You're describing Varglet. Great depths worm happens to be a non-mini exception.

Tallbird egg and mandrake are also present in the stash. Desert stones and down feathers can be obtained without killing a boss. Varg obviously doesn't have unique loot to put here, anyway.

Players can't see mob health, but they definitely experience it. Ewecus's melee damage is a bit higher than Varg's, but you can take less hits because it dies faster (less than 1/3 health). The phlegm messes up kiting, but you can still attack, IIRC? (I forget if you can just facetank. Does it move out of range constantly between attacks?)

Doesn't Toadstool have an insanity aura when mushroom trees are present? (Toadstool is also a raid boss. His health is crazy even non-misery.) A quarter of AFW health is still 4000.

On 10/29/2024 at 12:34 AM, SOS-Ouroboros-K said:

Of course, so they were changed to mini bosses.

And first of all, Treeguard is no weaker than Varg.

In fact, "Treeguard is BOSS" seems to be a holdover from older versions, and Treeguards themselves do not match the level of the BOSS in DST. So this is a special case and not appropriate as a reference standard.

Which still lands him on the "giants" page.

Treeguard stats per size are 2100 / 3000 / 3750 hp, and 34.65 / 49.5 / 61.875 melee. Only the vargs come close to the health, and they out-damage all but the tall version. Varg's summoned hounds can add extra damage, possible freezing or burning.

Is GB varg's glaze trivially dodgeable? IIRC, Ewecus's phlegm can't be dodged from a distance, but glaze looks like up-close inaccurate globs? (Can't tell if Maxwell is being hit by it in the video because beefalo immunity.) That could make GB varg stronger than treeguard unless you're just facetanking.

Treeguard is an early game boss. Hunts are conceivably early game, if you were trying to get a puffy vest early winter.

On 10/29/2024 at 12:34 AM, SOS-Ouroboros-K said:

Antlion & Crab King：Are we a joke to you?

These both have attacks. Antlion has sand spikes. CK has geysers (which he still uses in case you attempt to cheese the waves).

[grm9]

36 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

The phlegm messes up kiting, but you can still attack, IIRC? (I forget if you can just facetank. Does it move out of range constantly between attacks?)

it constantly runs away after doing a melee attack and you can't do anything when in phlegm, including attacking

36 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Doesn't Toadstool have an insanity aura when mushroom trees are present?

not necessarily, it has an insanity aura when channeling, so growing them, not depending on if it already has any except that it stops channeling after reaching 8 trees being bound to it at the same time.