Could the Fuelweaver fight just not have nightmare spawning?

[IAmAFurrz]

as the title says, i find the fight to be one of the better ones in the game had it not been for the nightmares rng in despawning as well as spawning when player goes insane to deal with unseen hands. 

the fight is fast paced, and there are methods to slow it down but when something that has that much health spawns, it will make the fight snowball into fuelweaver healing back to 10k health, everything is controled chaos except for the nightmares spawning, and it doesn't fit the fight either as every attack fuelweaver does, he shows it to the player, while the spawning itself is just part of the rest of the game. 

[SilverSpoon]

I'd like a cap on the amount of recovery, like "X0% of the damage received since the last recovery."
I don't like e've inflicted so desperately all the damage to be all recovered, this makes me feel like Sisyphus.

[Gashzer]

Sorry but I'm duty bound to share the moonlight shackle idea on every AFW topic.

As always, half credit for this idea goes to my good friend, grm9.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/158295-moonlight-shackle-new-celestial-altar-craft-suggestion-afw-nerf/

[Dwight34]

Would be nice indeed, the fight is already stressful enough as is.

14 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Sorry but I'm duty bound to share the moonlight shackle idea on every AFW topic.

As always, half credit for this idea goes to my good friend, grm9.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/158295-moonlight-shackle-new-celestial-altar-craft-suggestion-afw-nerf/

It's kinda already in the game though, if you want to grind, just beat CC, get a brightshade staff from the rifts and FW becomes stupid easy compared to before. Anytime he summons anything, just put on your nightmare amulet, spam the staff for 2 or 3 seconds and everything will get wiped out with 0 skill required. If you want to grind even more, the brightshade bombs make quick work of him once he doesn't have his shield.

Plus there is already a pre-CC grind to make him much easier, it's called gunpowder, which takes 80% of his phase 2 health easily if you time it to happen when he's almost at 10k but not there yet.

I'm not against the idea of the shackles itself, but it seems a bit redundant to me. I'd be more interested in the shadow cage having more counterplay for example, as currently it's an objectively badly designed ability.

[grm9]

21 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

I'd be more interested in the shadow cage having more counterplay for example, as currently it's an objectively badly designed ability

why? you can dodge it through going 3.75 or more tiles away from FW, it just needs an indicator for this for more people to realise that that's possible

1 hour ago, IAmAFurrz said:

as the title says, i find the fight to be one of the better ones in the game had it not been for the nightmares rng in despawning as well as spawning when player goes insane to deal with unseen hands

you can stay above 10% sanity for being insane but limiting nightmare spawns to 1 crawling horror and 1 crawling horror really'sn't an issue

42 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

I'd like a cap on the amount of recovery, like "X0% of the damage received since the last recovery."
I don't like e've inflicted so desperately all the damage to be all recovered, this makes me feel like Sisyphus

imo that should stay because that's like the 1 thing that can be done for punishing a player with a lot of armor and healing's mistake

21 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Plus there is already a pre-CC grind to make him much easier, it's called gunpowder, which takes 80% of his phase 2 health easily if you time it to happen when he's almost at 10k but not there yet

as another option

(this can also be done with 2 wolfgangs with a volt goat jelly for each, a dark sword from shadow pieces for 1 and a glass cutter from lunar for the other and wet world)

[Gashzer]

18 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

It's kinda already in the game though, if you want to grind, just beat CC, get a brightshade staff from the rifts and FW becomes stupid easy compared to before. Anytime he summons anything, just put on your nightmare amulet, spam the staff for 2 or 3 seconds and everything will get wiped out with 0 skill required. If you want to grind even more, the brightshade bombs make quick work of him once he doesn't have his shield.

Plus there is already a pre-CC grind to make him much easier, it's called gunpowder, which takes 80% of his phase 2 health easily if you time it to happen when he's almost at 10k but not there yet.

I'm not against the idea of the shackles itself, but it seems a bit redundant to me. I'd be more interested in the shadow cage having more counterplay for example, as currently it's an objectively badly designed ability.

Brightshade staff is way too late game. Gunpowder takes too long to grind and is not fun to use. 

Moonlight shackle being somewhat redundant is a fair opinion but it's an item to solidify the conflict being lunar and shadow beings. The only conflict we see ingame is the archives war but apart from simple damage buffs we have no lunar/shadow items that have special interactions with special animations with lunar and shadow mobs. 

This item could make afw have special quotes regarding alter to boost the lore of the game.

Its not only a nerf item for afw but more of a lore building item at heart.

[Dwight34]

5 minutes ago, grm9 said:

why? you can dodge it through going 3.75 or more tiles away from FW, it just needs an indicator for this for more people to realise that that's possible

You can theoretically, but it requires such extensive knowledge that only the top 0.1% of players would ever bother getting good enough to be able to do the fight without an item to teleport out of the cage. And it's why I hate it, because it basically requires an item (mostly lazy explorer, but potentially Wigfrid's spear or Wortox's soul hop...) and is unavoidable for the overwhelming majority of players. Playing around an ability you cannot dodge, only be extremely far away from, with almost no cast-time to indicate it's coming, requiring an item to avoid that makes you lose even more sanity in an already sanity-wrecking fight... It's just an unnecessary source of stress whose counterplay doesn't feel rewarding.

It would really benefit from either being dodgeable without running so far away, or remain dangerous but give long enough of a cast-time for a normal player to be able to get away.
If you want to go the grandiose route, replacing it with something like FW holding his arm up in the air for a couple second then smashing the ground creating a dark force field that would remove 50 sanity, do a lot of damage and surround you in destructible bones for example would be much cooler and fair.

13 minutes ago, grm9 said:

imo that should stay because that's like the 1 thing that can be done for punishing a player with a lot of armor and healing's mistake

The mechanic itself isn't the issue, it's the execution. Either FW heals almost nothing to nothing, or he heals absolutely everything. You cannot mildly succeed at FW, you either crush him or get crushed. Most issues with FW come from this binary aspect, binary outcomes are rarely interesting game-design. Do you have tp item or not? Does he heal 4K hp or not? Are you insane to hit the things or not? All of those are yes or no questions with no middle-ground, feeling more like a punishing checklist than a fair fight to many.

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Brightshade staff is way too late game. Gunpowder takes too long to grind and is not fun to use. 

Moonlight shackle being somewhat redundant is a fair opinion but it's an item to solidify the conflict being lunar and shadow beings. The only conflict we see ingame is the archives war but apart from simple damage buffs we have no lunar/shadow items that have special interactions with special animations with lunar and shadow mobs. 

This item could make afw have special quotes regarding alter to boost the lore of the game.

Its not only a nerf item for afw but more of a lore building item at heart.

Brightshade is very late-game but it does fit the description of the long way around. Gunpowder isn't too bad, especially since you only have to beat FW once to have the shadow rifts and a ton of nitre afterwards, the issue is Klei's hate-boner towards sleeping or freezing some bosses, making gunpowder pretty hard to use sometimes. Seriously, why are Nightmare Werepig and FW immune to any stun effect, what does it bring to the game?

Anyway, if that item were to be implemented, we'd really need (as we already do) a serious rework of the moonstone event, as it's really trash currently and every way to beat it feels like cheese, awful design to get an iridescent gem.

[grm9]

20 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

You can theoretically, but it requires such extensive knowledge that only the top 0.1% of players would ever bother getting good enough to be able to do the fight without an item to teleport out of the cage

not really, it's not that complicated with a beefalo or a magi and a cane

20 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

And it's why I hate it, because it basically requires an item (mostly lazy explorer, but potentially Wigfrid's spear or Wortox's soul hop...) and is unavoidable for the overwhelming majority of players

i don't see an issue with fights requiring items, that's like complaining that you can't just kite flint for it to turn into a pickaxe with out needing to bring twigs

20 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

almost no cast-time to indicate it's coming

you're supposed to predict it, it's on a 10 seconds timer (or was it 15? don't remember since i usually just count amount of melee attacks for dodging, 3 if you were staying in place and 2 if you made him walk from 1 corner of the arena to another for making him avoid woven shadows) that gets increased after he casts mind control or spikes falling down near by the ancient gate way for him to not do a special attack right after another special attack with no normal attack or walking in between that

20 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

If you want to go the grandiose route, replacing it with something like FW holding his arm up in the air for a couple second then smashing the ground creating a dark force field that would remove 50 sanity, do a lot of damage and surround you in destructible bones for example would be much cooler and fair

idk seems lame considering that you'll just need to run away on reaction

20 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

The mechanic itself isn't the issue, it's the execution. Either FW heals almost nothing to nothing, or he heals absolutely everything. You cannot mildly succeed at FW, you either crush him or get crushed. Most issues with FW come from this binary aspect, binary outcomes are rarely interesting game-design. Do you have tp item or not? Does he heal 4K hp or not? Are you insane to hit the things or not? All of those are yes or no questions with no middle-ground, feeling more like a punishing checklist than a fair fight to many

i don't see what's the issue with "binariness" and you can try dodging bone cage and only end up doing that half of the time or get him to heal for 400, 800, 1200, 4k, 8k etc.

20 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

It's just an unnecessary source of stress whose counterplay doesn't feel rewarding

what does that even mean or how do you make it be that way

[Dwight34]

10 minutes ago, grm9 said:

not really, it's not that complicated with a beefalo or a magi and a cane

i don't see an issue with fights requiring items, that's like complaining that you can't just kite flint for it to turn into a pickaxe with out needing to bring twigs

you're supposed to predict it, it's on a 10 seconds timer (or was it 15? don't remember since i usually just count amount of melee attacks for dodging, 3 if you were staying in place and 2 if you made him walk from 1 corner of the arena to another for making him avoid woven shadows) that gets increased after he casts mind control or spikes falling down near by the ancient gate way for him to not do a special attack right after another special attack with no normal attack or walking in between that

idk seems lame considering that you'll just need to run away on reaction

i don't see what's the issue with "binariness" and you can try dodging bone cage and only end up doing that half of the time or get him to heal for 400, 800, 1200, 4k, 8k etc.

what does a counter play feeling rewarding mean specifically or how do you make it that way

Issue is, you'll never manage to dodge without knowing the exact timers from watching the fight unfolds dozens of times, it's not intuitive, and it's very punishing. As for beefalos, I've never seen anyone bring one to a FW fight.

The issue with binaryness is obvious, that with so many of those, and with a boss that does not tolerate mistakes and has everything on tight timers, you don't fight as much as fulfill a checklist. The fight is so frantic and chaotic even when you know what to do, just because you have so much to do, that I have to constantly pause during the fight to switch items, remember what to do and execute it or it would be impossible for me.

A counterplay feels rewarding when you discover the solution on your own, or when you have multiple interesting options to deal with an issue. It took the entire speedrun hardcore community of DST literal years to discover how to efficiently kill FW, regular players have 0 chance of attaining that by themselves and the overwhelming majority would not want to bother with that.

With FW you don't fight, you check everything on the checklist, in a stressful fight that forces you to pause after every action, that requires many specific items to be brought, and after you've watched many guides on him to know exactly what to expect or you'll never succeed. Almost all other bosses let you breathe, analyze the behavior of the boss, recuperate, but FW doesn't, you only have time to do the exact specific correct thing you're supposed to do, if you stop a few seconds to analyze what he's doing you're already behind. FW is a wiki-boss, with 0 downtime, defeating him is more exhausting than it is rewarding because of the tightness of the fight.

19 minutes ago, grm9 said:

idk seems lame considering that you'll just need to run away on reaction

An easy to avoid but impressive attack would feel much better than the quick "lol u stuck" mechanic, and a simple but fair attack like that one would give the player more time to analyze what FW is doing with the minions and hands, and it would cross the tp requirement out of the list, making the fight much less of a juggling contest (which would also immensely help console players). The attack could also destroy his own minions and hands in the area, adding some skill dimension and reducing even further the need for items, as well as preventing the awkward issue of FW blocking the hitbox of one of the hands for example.

Basically, FW needs to be less "perfect" of an enemy that he is, to be a tiny bit more like other bosses, to be a bit stupider, more forgiving which also gives more depth.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Issue is, you'll never manage to dodge without knowing the exact timers from watching the fight unfolds dozens of times, it's not intuitive, and it's very punishing

not really, you can just notice that he does it after every 2 or 3 melee attacks depending on if you made him walk from a corner of the arena to another

6 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

As for beefalos, I've never seen anyone bring one to a FW fight

so? that's still an option, you'll probably just need to teleport out for healing it if tanking

7 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

An easy to avoid but impressive attack would feel much better than the quick "lol u stuck" mechanic

nah, i don't see what's the point of a flashy visual, i'd prefer an attack that's hard to dodge but might even look glitchy instead of an attack that has a flashy visual but requires doing a very simple and easy to do thing

8 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

more forgiving which also gives more depth

it won't, you can already do the fight with only a weapon and armor with good enough nightmares RNG or with that and insanity and sanity food with out that, i don't see how can more depth get added to that through dumbing the boss down

8 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

it would cross the tp requirement out of the list, making the fight much less of a juggling contest (which would also immensely help console players)

inventory management's like the only hard thing that you do when fighting it with a lazy explorer, a weather pain and a nightmare amulet so removing that'd just make it another "simply dodge to win" fight

10 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

With FW you don't fight, you check everything on the checklist, in a stressful fight that forces you to pause after every action, that requires many specific items to be brought, and after you've watched many guides on him to know exactly what to expect or you'll never succeed. Almost all other bosses let you breathe, analyze the behavior of the boss, recuperate, but FW doesn't, you only have time to do the exact specific correct thing you're supposed to do, if you stop a few seconds to analyze what he's doing you're already behind. FW is a wiki-boss, with 0 downtime, defeating him is more exhausting than it is rewarding because of the tightness of the fight

counter argument: i like fighting him and think that doing that's fun, even though you seem to be trying to say that he's objectively bad, exhausting or idk, most people in the community also seem to like fighting him

you also get 20 seconds for doing whatever after killing unseen hands and woven shadows, can also extend that through teleporting out of the arena around the end of that timer and teleporting back in after he'll start doing the thing near the gate way for hitting him and continuing the fight

12 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

A counterplay feels rewarding when you discover the solution on your own, or when you have multiple interesting options to deal with an issue. It took the entire speedrun hardcore community of DST literal years to discover how to efficiently kill FW, regular players have 0 chance of attaining that by themselves and the overwhelming majority would not want to bother with that

mostly because of a lack of clues about how things work, they could add an indicator for bone cage range and maybe some clue for his special attacks working through timers although idk how to do that and most other bosses also use timers for attacks that they can't possibly do multiple times in a row when the target's in their start attack range

17 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

the entire speedrun hardcore community of DST

there hardly was a community back when that got discovered

[Dwight34]

8 minutes ago, grm9 said:

counter argument: i like fighting him and think that doing that's fun, even though you seem to be trying to say that he's objectively bad, exhausting or idk, most people in the community also seem to like fighting him

 

The community doesn't like fighting him, as most of the community has never fought him, even less have fought him solo. As for the rest, there is no point in continuing, many on this forum are locked in the mentality of "If something is difficult, it's good. Fun doesn't exist. If something is feasible and difficult, then it is good, no matter what players have to do for it to be feasible". It is a black and white dogma that cannot be argued with as it's a fundamentalist belief. You like things being difficult, no matter the reason, and will always be against something difficult becoming fairer or easier, no matter the solution. You don't actually want to talk at all about game design, you only care about feasibility, since your answer to every design suggestion is "but you can succeed if you do that though".

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

The community doesn't like fighting him, as most of the community has never fought him, even less have fought him solo

i thought that me talking only about people that ever killed him was obvious enough

4 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

As for the rest, there is no point in continuing, many on this forum are locked in the mentality of "If something is difficult, it's good. Fun doesn't exist. If something is feasible and difficult, then it is good, no matter what players have to do for it to be feasible"

no? doing the fight's genuinely fun for me

5 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

It is a black and white dogma that cannot be argued with as it's a fundamentalist belief. You like things being difficult, no matter the reason, and will always be against something difficult becoming fairer or easier, no matter the solution

no? i just want the fight to stay fun and a fight getting dumbed down through e.g. bone cage becoming possible to dodge on reaction'd make it less fun because you'dn't need to predict him doing it any more

6 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

since your answer to every design suggestion is "but you can succeed if you do that though"

that's called suggesting a solution

6 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

You don't actually want to talk at all about game design

yes i just want the fight to not get dumbed down for me to be able to still fight the version of the boss that i consider as fun so i end up needing to talk about that

[Mr Giggio]

Honestly the 2.5 seconds limit to despawn rule Klei added solved this issue for me cuz now we know the shadows are despawning so just focus on recover sanity ignore the shadows they will go away

Back in the time couple months ago that was a literal nightmare cuz they could stay for more than a minute sometimes even when u perfect manage ur sanity and just had the nightmare amulet flicked to hit shadow hands

But now its more of a ye I will just recover sanity and focus in other things cuz I know the shadow will go away

53 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

"If something is difficult, it's good. Fun doesn't exist.

The challange wild survival vibe of the game is here before u joined buddy to be fair its what was the main sauce for the old gamers and of course they appreciate it to stay and will disagree with people that came from games that are more soft/dont like it. Game dont need to change, FW is absolutly the boss with the most interesting mechanics hands down.

[Dwight34]

49 minutes ago, Mr Giggio said:

The challange wild survival vibe of the game is here before u joined buddy to be fair its what was the main sauce for the old gamers and of course they appreciate it to stay and will disagree with people that came from games that are more soft/dont like it. Game dont need to change, FW is absolutly the boss with the most interesting mechanics hands down.

Any "old gamer" is a rambling insane old man if he thinks that something being difficult but feasible systematically means it's good. That mentality of "we should dig tombs with spoons instead of shovels because it's still doable" is proof of stupidity, not proof of strength. I simply point out the hypocrisy and dishonesty of those arguing with that false dogma, always using fallacies and moot points consisting of "I like it" (unfalsifiable, irrelevant) and "It's feasible". Your desire to gatekeep to feel better about yourself fools no one, and it's what turns so many games into toxic cesspools because some people never stop feeling like they need to prove themselves by gatekeeping any random thing.

Even your "challenge" religion points this out, you don't care if the challenge is good or bad, because you refuse to talk about design, you only want difficulty. If you had to press a key every 10 seconds or your character would get a heart attack, you'd defend it because it is feasible and people can "just adapt". You refuse honest, intelligent discussions about design and only want to hold ****-contests. Literally everything your group says is pointless "look at me, love me, I'm so good" rambling making you, none of you bring anything new, anything interesting, have anything to say, by trying to stand out you are the most conformist group imaginable.

[arubaro]

I get that FW is a rough fight and i personaly needed a lot of practise to be able to beat it (like other bosses in most videogames). Is an important fight that gives many rewards.

What would be the point of insanity if it doesnt affect boss fights and, particularly, the fuelweaver

[grm9]

14 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

That mentality of "we should dig tombs with spoons instead of shovels because it's still doable" is proof of stupidity, not proof of strength

that's a very stupid comparison, no one here told you to kill FW through using fist instead of a weapon because that's possible, i don't see what's the point of this comparison and who're you even talking about

14 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Any "old gamer" is a rambling insane old man if he thinks that something being difficult but feasible systematically means it's good

literally no one said that, stop complaining about imaginary people

14 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Your desire to gatekeep to feel better about yourself fools no one, and it's what turns so many games into toxic cesspools because some people never stop feeling like they need to prove themselves by gatekeeping any random thing

literally wrong, i want FW to stay that way because fighting it's fun for me, not because i want some one to be unable to kill it, i've literally wanted all boss cheeses to stay for other people to be able to skip bosses that're too hard for them instead of complaining until they'll get dumbed down and become less fun to fight for people that previously liked fighting them

14 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Even your "challenge" religion points this out, you don't care if the challenge is good or bad, because you refuse to talk about design, you only want difficulty. If you had to press a key every 10 seconds or your character would get a heart attack, you'd defend it because it is feasible and people can "just adapt". You refuse honest, intelligent discussions about design and only want to hold ****-contests. Literally everything your group says is pointless "look at me, love me, I'm so good" rambling making you, none of you bring anything new, anything interesting, have anything to say, by trying to stand out you are the most conformist group imaginable

that's just some schizo rant because no one mentioned challenges and idk who're the members of that imaginary unnamed group

14 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

"I like it" (unfalsifiable, irrelevant)

relevant because the point of changing some thing in a game's making the total amount of people that like playing the game higher

14 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

You refuse honest, intelligent discussions about design and only want to hold ****-contests

you literally didn't respond to any part of my message except 2 lines after i tried to do a discussion that's like that with you and then ignored another message entirely

[arubaro]

21 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

Any "old gamer" is a rambling insane old man if he thinks that something being difficult but feasible systematically means it's good. That mentality of "we should dig tombs with spoons instead of shovels because it's still doable" is proof of stupidity, not proof of strength. I simply point out the hypocrisy and dishonesty of those arguing with that false dogma, always using fallacies and moot points consisting of "I like it" (unfalsifiable, irrelevant) and "It's feasible". Your desire to gatekeep to feel better about yourself fools no one, and it's what turns so many games into toxic cesspools because some people never stop feeling like they need to prove themselves by gatekeeping any random thing.

Even your "challenge" religion points this out, you don't care if the challenge is good or bad, because you refuse to talk about design, you only want difficulty. If you had to press a key every 10 seconds or your character would get a heart attack, you'd defend it because it is feasible and people can "just adapt". You refuse honest, intelligent discussions about design and only want to hold ****-contests. Literally everything your group says is pointless "look at me, love me, I'm so good" rambling making you, none of you bring anything new, anything interesting, have anything to say, by trying to stand out you are the most conformist group imaginable.

Some people enjoy hard fights. Good if you dont but this game isnt about, or atleast wasnt, about having an easy time

Characters are getting a lot of new combat perks without downsides, there are new food sources and dishes, celestial portal allows you to mix character perks, there are new powerful items and there are world settings to make the game easier . I dont think this game needs nerfs for interesting optional challenges...you get the reward if you are able to beat the challenge with the huge ammount of tools you have whenever you are prepare for it

"New gamers" seems like they just want to idle while the game tells them how good they are by giving reward after reward

[Gashzer]

13 minutes ago, grm9 said:

literally wrong, i want FW to stay that way because fighting it's fun for me, not because i want some one to be unable to kill it, i've literally wanted all boss cheeses to stay for other people to be able to skip bosses that're too hard for them instead of complaining until they'll get dumbed down and become less fun to fight for people that previously liked fighting them

Its great that the moonlight shackle would be both an optional and legit item to make it a clearer replacement to the more buggy and less known cheese methods that already exist.

This keeps AFW un-nerfed for those who want to fight him normally and helps those that need it. 

Our moonlight shackle idea grm9 literally solves all the problems! 

Good job we created this win-win situation! Hopefully klei implements it!

[Dwight34]

13 minutes ago, arubaro said:

Some people enjoy hard fights. Good if you dont but this game isnt about, or atleast wasnt, about having an easy time

Characters are getting a lot of new combat perks without downsides, there are new food sources and dishes, celestial portal allows you to mix character perks, there are new powerful items and there are world settings to make the game easier . I dont think this game needs nerfs for interesting optional challenges...you get the reward if you are able to beat the challenge with the huge ammount of tools you have whenever you are prepare for it

"New gamers" seems like they just want to idle while the game tells them how good they are by giving reward after reward

This mob simply continues to prove my point, none of you talks about design, only about feasibility. You are unfit to speak about games if you don't understand the very concept of design. I've beaten FW, multiple times, but you're still rambling about feasibility, "challenges" and rewards. If things can be done one way, you are unequivocally opposed to bettering those things in any way shape or form.

Only Gashzer in the last messages here engages in design discussion (even if it's just reposting the shackles idea), everyone else does nothing but ramble about "muh hard" and "muh easy", not understanding design, fairness, interest, fun. Simply not understanding whatsoever what a game is. Literal NPCs, engaged in pointless bragging into the void.

[grm9]

5 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

This mob simply continues to prove my point, none of you talks about design, only about feasibility. You are unfit to speak about games if you don't understand the very concept of design. I've beaten FW, multiple times, but you're still rambling about feasibility, "challenges" and rewards. If things can be done one way, you are unequivocally opposed to bettering those things in any way shape or form.

Only Gashzer in the last messages here engages in design discussion (even if it's just reposting the shackles idea), everyone else does nothing but ramble about "muh hard" and "muh easy", not understanding design, fairness, interest, fun. Simply not understanding whatsoever what a game is. Literal NPCs, engaged in pointless bragging into the void

could you stop complaining about imaginary people? you seem to want to complain about challenge runners even though no one does challenge runs in DST so you end up just saying that to random people

i can say that FW's fun because figuring strats for dealing with him's fun and multi tasking's hard and fun but conversation never came to ending up needing to say that so i didn't

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, Dwight34 said:

Only Gashzer in the last messages here engages in design discussion (even if it's just reposting the shackles idea)

Its the only brain child of mine that I love . And until someone comes up with a better solution that makes all sides happy, that is, people who want AFW unchanged and people who want him nerfed in some way,  i will continue to repost it.

Forums is weird. Certain members make it their primary goal to post with the sole purpose to shut down other peoples ideas or opinions that they dont like, without giving design alternatives or creative ideas of their own.

All criticisms and no constructive brainstorming.

[arubaro]

7 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

This mob simply continues to prove my point, none of you talks about design, only about feasibility. You are unfit to speak about games if you don't understand the very concept of design. I've beaten FW, multiple times, but you're still rambling about feasibility, "challenges" and rewards. If things can be done one way, you are unequivocally opposed to bettering those things in any way shape or form.

Only Gashzer in the last messages here engages in design discussion (even if it's just reposting the shackles idea), everyone else does nothing but ramble about "muh hard" and "muh easy", not understanding design, fairness, interest, fun. Simply not understanding whatsoever what a game is. Literal NPCs, engaged in pointless bragging into the void.

For me the design is nearly perfect. The only thing i dont like is how he is like a treeguard in terms of melee atacks.

The insanity interactions are the best and i wish more bosses adds things like this

The healing is fair considering his low HP and how the creeps are slow and FW focus on the player. Also fits thematically since he seems to be an ancient ruler

The shield is very interesting, thematically and mechanically. Is the only boss with inmunity and is so cool that you need to manage your sanity

The trap is interesting since makes you choose what to do. If you teleport using lazy explorer you will waste sanity in a fight were sanity matters a lot. If you stay you will need to tank

The insanity mind control is one of the best boss interaction in the game and can be used to increase you damage against him

 

Suggestions like OP's or the dumb moon shaker non sense only ruins a complex and fun fight to become closer to a tree guard...

[Dwight34]

7 minutes ago, arubaro said:

For me the design is nearly perfect. The only thing i dont like is how he is like a treeguard in terms of melee atacks.

The insanity interactions are the best and i wish more bosses adds things like this

The healing is fair considering his low HP and how the creeps are slow and FW focus on the player. Also fits thematically since he seems to be an ancient ruler

The shield is very interesting, thematically and mechanically. Is the only boss with inmunity and is so cool that you need to manage your sanity

The trap is interesting since makes you choose what to do. If you teleport using lazy explorer you will waste sanity in a fight were sanity matters a lot. If you stay you will need to tank

The insanity mind control is one of the best boss interaction in the game and can be used to increase you damage against him

 

Suggestions like OP's or the dumb moon shaker non sense only ruins a complex and fun fight to become closer to a tree guard...

All of his mechanics are interesting, but all combined and the way they're executed makes the fight much more stressful and tight than it could be, without removing any of those mechanics, simply adjusting timers and potentially altering some mechanics. The trap is not interesting to me in the sense that tanking is not an option most of the time in the second phase as you have to right then and there destroy the minions or unseen hands (unless maybe if you spam brightshade staff from there).

 

16 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Its the only brain child of mine that I love . And until someone comes up with a better solution that makes all sides happy, that is, people who want AFW unchanged and people who want him nerfed in some way,  i will continue to repost it.

Forums is weird. Certain members make it their primary goal to post with the sole purpose to shut down other peoples ideas or opinions that they dont like, without giving design alternatives or creative ideas of their own.

All criticisms and no constructive brainstorming.

Some people will never be happy sadly, as it's about their pride in beating something, anything that would allow others to more easily do it too feels like an insult to them. it's hilarious by the way to see them say something, me repeat exactly what they say, and they act surprised as if I completely made it up. I cite a message starting with "The Challenge", I mention challenge in my reply, and someone goes "wHeRe dId yOu sEe tHe wOrD ChAlLeNgE? wHy aRe yOu mAkInG ThIs uP?"

And it's important to not think about things only in terms of "nerfed" or "buffed", but in terms of becoming a better fight. Is AG stronger or weaker than before his rework? Who the hell cares, he's infinitely better as a fight! That's what should matter. Is CK stronger or weaker? I have huge gripes with his difficulty but he's infinitely more interesting and an objectively better fight than before.

[arubaro]

8 minutes ago, Dwight34 said:

stressful

That is part of the fun. Winter was also stressful when you start the game blind or most well designed bosses in the videogames i played since i was a kid

When i want a chill experience i just play other kind of games made to have chill times... the game direction has been really sandboxy, i dont see the need of ruining an optional piece of content just because some people dont want a "stressful" moment in a survival game...

[SilverSpoon]

3 minutes ago, arubaro said:

When i want a chill experience i just play other kind of games made to have chill times.

When i want a stressful experience i just do other kind of anything made to have stressful times.  For example overtime.

As it says Klei "Entertainment", I don't want to believe that Klei is some twisted company that wants to give people who buy game a stressful experience.