On Reviled Cheese and Player Freedom

[DegenerateFurry]

22 minutes ago, dst_lover said:

1 if there is a bug in Fortnite and u figuring the bug and having to do steps for it doesn’t make it a non cheating method 

2 the devs will never remove fire because it’s not a bug or exploit and if they remove it this will lead to other thing like hammer to be removed so instead they add rollback and with the ability to ban people and kick people they kinda solve the problem so can u say why it being a multiplayer game doesn’t mean that they should remove it

Fortnite is competitive, though. You're actively fighting other players to win. Almost nobody plays PVP in DST, so the only one who your actions affect, generally speaking, is you (unless you're killing a boss early without inviting other players, but generally, "cheese" methods take way longer than the alternatives - a Wolfgang can rush his Russian butt down to the ruins, do a backflip, and snap AG's neck before the average player can blink, but that's not "cheese"). 

I think you need to open your mind more and stop seeing everything that deviates from some arbitrary expected norm as cheating.

[RozeMeteor]

So we are here all over angain, i wonder how much time this will take to get locked 

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Not all mobs were changed that way. As far as I know, it was only blazes - creepers, skeletons, witches, zombie pigmen, and slimes all still drop stuff when they die without player intervention. Also, you can still use wolves to automate even those. 

It's all rare loot from all mobs. No iron or equipment from zombies. No wither skulls from wither skeletons.

Wolves won't attack non-skeleton mobs without provocation. That means player must attack (not AFK) or take damage (you'll die). They absolutely won't attack creepers. That pretty well limits it to skeleton dungeon mob spawners for a trickle of xp (using water floor trick to block regular spawns), because anything else will jam with other mobs (and then they'll die of entity cramming).

[DegenerateFurry]

2 minutes ago, RozeMeteor said:

So we are here all over angain, i wonder how much time this will take to get locked 

Well, as long as people don't start being overly toxic, it probably won't be locked. 

[RozeMeteor]

1 minute ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Well, as long as people don't start being overly toxic, it probably won't be locked. 

Matter of time i would say, but lets hope for the best

[DegenerateFurry]

5 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

It's all rare loot from all mobs. No iron or equipment from zombies. No wither skulls from wither skeletons.

Wolves won't attack non-skeleton mobs without provocation. That means player must attack (not AFK) or take damage (you'll die). That pretty well limits it to skeleton dungeon mob spawners (using water floor trick to block regular spawns), because anything else will jam with other mobs.

As someone who frequently makes redstone-based farms in Minecraft, I can confirm factually that you are wrong. You can make a fully-automated blaze farm with a wolf by holding your shield and letting the blaze attack you. The wolf will then kill it for you. Popular YouTuber Mumbo Jumbo did this, but I've also seen other people make it. If you don't want to hold your shield, you can just use a regeneration beacon and some good armor (the XP will keep it from breaking with mending). If you hold out a sword that has looting III, you'll even get that effect without attacking.

Also, almost everything in Minecraft can be farmed semi-automatically (fully AFKable - you just use an autoclicker or rebind your mouse key to something and put something on that key to keep it pressed) or fully automatically. Iron can be fully AFK farmed. 

But that's not the game we're here to discuss, is it? I was just using Minecraft as an example because it's one that has an abundance of fully automatic farms that exploit unintended game behavior/buggy mechanics, and nobody in that game's community has a problem with it. 

Another example I'd like to give in DST of an automated farm: the Wickerbottom Bee Queen tentacle farm setup. You simply make a square of grass walls, break them, and stand in the middle so the tentacles spawn far enough out not to hit you, then spam On Tentacles and cram a bunch of sanity food down your gullet until no more tentacles can be spawned. For doing that, you get a way to kill Bee Queen without even fighting it. Is that an exploit that should be patched? I say hell no.

[Bumber64]

22 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

As someone who frequently makes redstone-based farms in Minecraft, I can confirm factually that you are wrong. You can make a fully-automated blaze farm with a wolf by holding your shield and letting the blaze attack you. The wolf will then kill it for you. Popular YouTuber Mumbo Jumbo did this, but I've also seen other people make it. If you don't want to hold your shield, you can just use a regeneration beacon and some good armor (the XP will keep it from breaking with mending). If you hold out a sword that has looting III, you'll even get that effect without attacking.

Also, almost everything in Minecraft can be farmed semi-automatically (fully AFKable - you just use an autoclicker or rebind your mouse key to something and put something on that key to keep it pressed) or fully automatically. Iron can be fully AFK farmed. 

Mending is kind of broken in that way. And even so, you're limited to the rate at which wolves can kill. OG grinders were a constant rain of mobs from the sky, dropping countless xp as they hit the ground, which was unreasonable versus anyone just killing every mob in sight.

But as I said originally, Minecraft isn't "uncompromising survival".

[dst_lover]

47 minutes ago, grm9 said:

depends on the bug and the rules of the game, even in it keeping a bug or replacing it with some intended very similar thing could've been better in comparison to simply removing it since that's also how some other competitive games got some fun stuff

what does it being a bug change and why don't you try to kick people that use a bug then

1 exploit and bugs are just cheating if the bug creates a good mechanic and a fun on the developer will add the mechanic as if it’s not a bug and until that happens it’s just a cheating method 

because it’s cheating and i will kick any person he will cheat in any of my world 

[grm9]

Just now, dst_lover said:

1 exploit and bugs are just cheating if the bug creates a good mechanic and a fun on the developer will add the mechanic as if it’s not a bug and until that happens it’s just a cheating method 

because it’s cheating and i will kick any person he will cheat in any of my world 

how can it be cheating if there's no rule for that

[DegenerateFurry]

4 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

Mending is kind of broken in that way. And even so, you're limited to the rate at which wolves can kill. OG grinders were mobs falling from the sky, dropping countless xp.

But as I said originally, Minecraft isn't "uncompromising survival".

Look, you're not gonna convince me or anyone else that Minecraft doesn't have ridiculous mob farms. You can make a fully automated gold and XP farm that produces almost a million items per hour, and you can make fully automated mob farms that greatly exceed that. The evidence is on YouTube. Let's go back to talking about DST, alright?

DST is not an "uncompromising survival" game and has not been for a long time, and that's a good thing. Want proof? The devs have tried to make moonstorms not spawn on your base. If it was uncompromising, they'd have done the opposite on purpose and told players to deal with it when they complained. Lunar hail doesn't damage mobs anymore for the same reason - players who kept zoos didn't like it, so the devs compromised by making it not damage their animals. We got the pillar to negate earthquakes if we want to cave-base. Dragonfly doesn't just spawn in and burn your base down in DST, unlike RoG. Unless you've turned the entire cave into a megabase, you can keep the Greater Depths Worm from breaking anything by just leaving when you hear the worms gurgle. 

Even from the start, though? DS was compromising too. They added food spoilage, but we get the fridge to slow it. They added gobblers to nerf berry farms, but we can bait them and turn them into an additional food source. The steam page saying "uncompromising wilderness survival game" doesn't mean jack if the devs decide not to make it uncompromising, and they've clearly seen that people prefer that it isn't, so they've compromised and taken measures to prevent frustration.

[Maxposting]

I don't think conflating farms which take plenty of resources and preparations or interesting use of aggro mechanics with cheap boss exploits is useful for this conversation.

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, Maxposting said:

I don't think conflating farms which take plenty of resources and preparations or interesting use of aggro mechanics with cheap boss exploits is useful for this conversation.

The thing is, the line is blurry. You could argue that the Wickerbottom tentacle farm is an exploit because you have to abuse the fact that walls block tentacles and stand on broken walls to spawn them properly. I have actually seen people call it an exploit on those grounds.

[Maxposting]

1 minute ago, DegenerateFurry said:

The thing is, the line is blurry.

I don't think so. The line might be how much resources (both time and materials) are spent on "cheaper" kills that don't involve regular fighting. It is subjective to the player what they consider "cheap" to be a bug exploit versus what is "expensive enough" to be an emergent feature.

I think people should have access to an "exploit" (Bee Queen tentacle farm) when it's expensive enough, otherwise there isn't a reason not to use these exploits (Fuelweaver lureplant cheese) in general gameplay.

It is probably personal bias, but I don't think most people want the tentacle farm removed while they also agree with the lureplant exploit removal.

idk

[xDarkSoul18x]

I'll just posted what I think from another reply.

I understand the argument and know all too well how certain "metas" can change communities, but that is a people problem not a dev problem. It is not the devs fault that people have created these things and communities themselves. For example, I have a friend that hates when games have "Adjustable settings" or Cheat menus. He wants them out of games, he says he gets to tempted to cheat. So, let me get this straight; You want something removed from the game that can very well offer other experiences and in some games even be used as a way to fix bugs and glitches because YOU don't have the self-control to not use them? It's a completely ignorant stance IMO. (I fell through the map playing the new Ark, and because of "Cheats" I was able to fly under the map and get my stuff, not lose hours of progress because of a bug, a non-intended experience). 

I used to be on other sites/forums back in the early 2000s and it was amazing to meet and discuss things about games, mechanics, little tips and tricks and just converse about the game, etc. It's a community in itself, and I've played games differently based off these perspectives, so it offers a new experience. Still though this is a personal problem and is not a thing any dev can ever fix unless they want to make the game so boring and bland or just homogenize everything like 90% of the games today that do nothing but hold your hand and tell you what you SHOULD be doing not just give you the tools to do what YOU want to do.

It definitely is a difficult thing to digest but once you do it, you'll be fine. It's just about getting out of that mindset and realizing there are so many other people out there like you. They're just quiet and out there playing and enjoying the way they see fit, so you don't see them or hear them. These things are VERY specific, no normal person is doing these things. No normal person decides "Let me bring a lure plant into the last boss of the games arena and have it push me out the map", "Let me place statues all around a fountain so mobs can't hit it". These are things people go out of their way to do so I don't really think manpower should be wasted "Fixing" a problem the community creates. Now obvious things like "wearing a certain armor glitches the fight and makes you god-mode" yes. 

I never think limiting the creativity of players and the game is ever a solution to player-created problems (This post made me want to build a base in the ruins now and spice up the FW arena lol). It would be an endless cycle. People are ALWAYS going to float to metas, people are ALWAYS going to find ways to exploit. In this circumstance it really is just a "Don't use it". When playing with others, again you still have the choice to not play with said people or not benefit from it, most people just don't want to put even the slightest effort and would rather just blame people or devs. 

I just hate how MY experience in a game has to be limited or changed because of other people and problems they create themselves where they don't exist. Anyone that uses mods but has the audacity to talk about "Intended experience" is a hypocrite. If those mods were "intended experiences" they'd be in the game. Just my opinion though. 

[user1464576869]

I think it's because minecraft as a game without intricate redstone contraptions and material generators is just too lacklustre to exist on it's own merit. The obtuse community-designed tech tree of exploiting minecraft's jank is all it can really offer as an worthwhile experience. Minecraft combat isn't viable entertainment, it's laggy, disconnected and in the end just an exchange of numbers in damage output vs health. You can't actually perform any meaningful kiting. And since starving isn't an issue either, the only thing left for minecraft is to double down on being a factorio or cookie clicker-esque 'watch numbers grow until I feel like turning it into a house'.

People have simply given up on that game offering a legitimate survival experience, so you might as well exploit and generate infinite goods to make all the pretty facades and ghost towns you want. It really is just a shallow functionlesss decoration game. Instead of facing terrible game design for scraps you get essentially the benefits of Creative for the cost of engaging problem solving.

I can see why people might be against exploits in DST if they feel more immersion towards the urgency of survival and triumph in legitimate combat. Not that I would exactly define what is and isn't an exploit the same as the next person.

[grm9]

12 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

I think people should have access to an "exploit" (Bee Queen tentacle farm) when it's expensive enough, otherwise there isn't a reason not to use these exploits (Fuelweaver lureplant cheese) in general gameplay

just don't use cheap stuff if it makes the game less fun for you, similarly to how you already some times play as the character that allows you to get as much fun out of the game as you can instead of the most optimal character?

[Maxposting]

I'm certain others have already explained in other threads how "just don't use it" isn't a good counter-argument, especially when discussing balance. I don't want this thread to end up in a senseless spiral about this.

[Bumber64]

54 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

Look, you're not gonna convince me or anyone else that Minecraft doesn't have ridiculous mob farms. You can make a fully automated gold and XP farm that produces almost a million items per hour, and you can make fully automated mob farms that greatly exceed that. The evidence is on YouTube. Let's go back to talking about DST, alright?

And I was never attempting to do so. (I watched SmallAnt build The Machine™ in skyblock.) The thread is about the attitude of the community, and there was (at one point) very serious push back from the community about mob farms. Notch took this into account for the Adventure Update, and eventually settled on allowing loot but no xp. (Wolves didn't even count as player kills until 1.14, years after Notch left.) As I also said, I haven't kept up with community sentiment on current issues. (Apparently the official forum re-opened in 2019!?)

54 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

DST is not an "uncompromising survival" game and has not been for a long time, and that's a good thing. Want proof? The devs have tried to make moonstorms not spawn on your base. If it was uncompromising, they'd have done the opposite on purpose and told players to deal with it when they complained. Lunar hail doesn't damage mobs anymore for the same reason - players who kept zoos didn't like it, so the devs compromised by making it not damage their animals. We got the pillar to negate earthquakes if we want to cave-base. Dragonfly doesn't just spawn in and burn your base down in DST, unlike RoG. Unless you've turned the entire cave into a megabase, you can keep the Greater Depths Worm from breaking anything by just leaving when you hear the worms gurgle. 

Even from the start, though? DS was compromising too. They added food spoilage, but we get the fridge to slow it. They added gobblers to nerf berry farms, but we can bait them and turn them into an additional food source. The steam page saying "uncompromising wilderness survival game" doesn't mean jack if the devs decide not to make it uncompromising, and they've clearly seen that people prefer that it isn't, so they've compromised and taken measures to prevent frustration.

And the DST community was divided on this. And so Klei took this into account found a compromise*. The hail damages players, but not mobs. The pillars negate earthquakes, but need a constant supply of stone or cost rarer dreadstone. Rollback became acceptable due to multiplayer griefing. (Whereas roguelike communities have strong opinions on save scumming.)

The community is not quite so accepting of allowing the player to effortlessly pwn bosses though. Many bosses can no longer instantly drown. Lureplant and krampus sack patched. Crab king has minions to fight back against bees.

*I take "uncompromising" to mean the game is difficult, not the devs being rigid. That is, you get hit with more threats as time passes rather the game waiting for you to prepare at your own pace.

[DegenerateFurry]

3 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

*I take "uncompromising" to mean the game is difficult, not the devs being rigid. That is, you get hit with more threats as time passes rather the game waiting for you to prepare at your own pace.

And how, exactly, does allowing people to make farms and stuff make the game not hit you with more threats as time passes? 

[Gashzer]

4 hours ago, grm9 said:

we all know that you just want to troll people and make them angrily reply to you about that, you admitted that you're a troll twice or thrice by now, the immersion thing's simply absurd considering that you can simply set some wormwood skin for your hands and some wortox skin for your legs and get a human with leaves as hands and a tail

Who's we?

I've said this before, and I'll say this again. Even if i was a troll, how does that affect the logic of my arguments? I'm actually an apache helicopter by the way 

This tactic to try an diminish my opinion by calling me a troll is extremely immature, which i guess you could be a 12 year old for all I know so maybe it's my fault trying to have a discussion with a child

Apparently any form of attempted humour in 2024 makes you a troll these days.

The immersion argument makes a lot of sense for world building. When the cult of the lamb crossover happened, klei mentioned the idea of reworking followers. Probably because of how successful the cult of the lamb handled its very streamlined follower system... worse thing of all, klei has a far better world, that cult of the lamb wishes it had but again alot of wasted potential by not giving more unique interactions to make the constant feel lived in and more alive.

People on these forums would rather strip the personality out of DST for convenient resource hoarding even if it looks dumb and buggy as all hell. You guys are either loot addicts or obsessed with boss rushing that the second klei nerf something that reduces your speed or ability to amass an excessive amount of resources for zero effort, you complain.

For example your atrium QoL post went up extremely quickly when klei removed voidwalking, even tho I agree it needs some QoL but not for the same reason you have.

[DegenerateFurry]

4 minutes ago, Maxposting said:

I'm certain others have already explained in other threads how "just don't use it" isn't a good counter-argument, especially when discussing balance. I don't want this thread to end up in a senseless spiral about this.

I've not seen a single person explain it beyond claiming that "if anyone can do it, everyone will do it", which is bunk nonsense.

3 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Who's we?

I've said this before, and I'll say this again. Even if i was a troll, how does that affect the logic of my arguments? I'm actually an apache helicopter by the way 

This tactic to try an diminish my opinion by calling me a troll is extremely immature, which i guess you could be a 12 year old for all I know so maybe it's my fault trying to have a discussion with a child

Apparently any form of attempted humour in 2024 makes you a troll these days.

The immersion argument makes a lot of sense for world building. When the cult of the lamb crossover happened, klei mentioned the idea of reworking followers. Probably because of how successful the cult of the lamb handled its very streamlined follower system... worse thing of all, klei has a far better world, that cult of the lamb wishes it had but again alot of wasted potential by not giving more unique interactions to make the constant feel lived in and more alive.

People on these forums would rather strip the personality out of DST for convenient resource hoarding even if it looks dumb and buggy as all hell. You guys are either loot addicts or obsessed with boss rushing that the second klei nerf something that reduces your speed or ability to amass an excessive amount of resources for zero effort, you complain.

For example your atrium QoL post went up extremely quickly when klei removed voidwalking, even tho I agree it needs some QoL but not for the same reason you have.

What I want to know is why you don't accept that the jank is part of DS's personality as a franchise and always has been.

[Bumber64]

13 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

And how, exactly, does allowing people to make farms and stuff make the game not hit you with more threats as time passes? 

It just informs the community of the expectations of the gameplay. (See: What happens to someone in a soulslike game community when they complain the game is unfair.)

Farms and cheese can make surviving the threats easier, however. Jellybeans, etc.

[Gashzer]

3 minutes ago, DegenerateFurry said:

What I want to know is why you don't accept that the jank is part of DS's personality as a franchise and always has been.

DST is a really good game.

The jank is holding it back from being a legendary game with Minecraft levels of insane successfulness.

The jank has never looked good in single player DS or DST. Always reminds me that yes this is a buggy  indie game with a beautiful artstyle to make up for it from a passionate but "small-fry" indie company.

Klei don't be a small fry, aim bigger lads and polish the crap out of DST.

[DegenerateFurry]

Just now, Gashzer said:

DST is a really good game.

The jank is holding it back from being a legendary game with Minecraft levels of insane successfulness.

The jank has never looked good in single player DS or DST. Always reminds me that yes this is a buggy  indie game with a beautiful artstyle to make up for it from a passionate but "small-fry" indie company.

Klei don't be a small fry, aim bigger lads and polish the crap out of DST.

Minecraft is a trillion times jankier and worse-looking than DST. Jank has nothing to do with the game's success levels, the core gameplay loop does. Minecraft is basically just virtual legos that (in survival mode) you have to work for, and it's the most successful game of all time because of how variable and universal that is, but DST is more of a true survival sandbox. It's more niche and therefore has a smaller audience, and that's okay. Bigger player count doesn't equal better game.

[grm9]

21 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You guys are either loot addicts or obsessed with boss rushing that the second klei nerf something that reduces your speed or ability to amass an excessive amount of resources for zero effort, you complain

most people used void walking because they thought that getting to ancient gate way with out it was less fun in comparison to with it

21 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Who's we?

I've said this before, and I'll say this again. Even if i was a troll, how does that affect the logic of my arguments? I'm actually an apache helicopter by the way 

This tactic to try an diminish my opinion by calling me a troll is extremely immature, which i guess you could be a 12 year old for all I know so maybe it's my fault trying to have a discussion with a child

Apparently any form of attempted humour in 2024 makes you a troll these days.

The immersion argument makes a lot of sense for world building. When the cult of the lamb crossover happened, klei mentioned the idea of reworking followers. Probably because of how successful the cult of the lamb handled its very streamlined follower system... worse thing of all, klei has a far better world, that cult of the lamb wishes it had but again alot of wasted potential by not giving more unique interactions to make the constant feel lived in and more alive.

People on these forums would rather strip the personality out of DST for convenient resource hoarding even if it looks dumb and buggy as all hell. You guys are either loot addicts or obsessed with boss rushing that the second klei nerf something that reduces your speed or ability to amass an excessive amount of resources for zero effort, you complain.

For example your atrium QoL post went up extremely quickly when klei removed voidwalking, even tho I agree it needs some QoL but not for the same reason you have

the rest of this's just trolling

26 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

*I take "uncompromising" to mean the game is difficult, not the devs being rigid. That is, you get hit with more threats as time passes rather the game waiting for you to prepare at your own pace

that's the problem, uncompromising doesn't mean any specific thing so using it as an argument's pointless