Cave Update Ideas/Suggestions.

[DegenerateFurry]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

he's already the most fun fight in the game so that's about as good as that'll get, people that currently like him most likely won't like him after they'll rework him since they'll most likely turn it into another braindead fight like mutated bosses

The mutated bosses are very fun and are not at all "braindead fights". They're fun like the werepig bosses and Celestial Champion. Fuelweaver's not braindead, but he's not fun either, and judging by my experiences on this forum and in servers, the majority of people who've fought him don't enjoy fighting him. You are in a small minority of people who actually like him the way he is. 

[arubaro]

3 hours ago, goblinball said:

 

No, players resorting to skipping the fight through cheese doesn’t solve the issue. Ideally the fight should be fun for everyone, or at the very least as many people as possible. If players resort to cheese then that usually means the fight isn’t fun for them and they don’t want to do it. Being able to circumvent the issue with cheese/cheats doesn’t mean there’s no issue. 

 

I don’t think anyone or at least 99% of players go into dst expecting “a cozy building game” the game makes itself very clear that it’s not an easy farming sim.

I think there’s alot of reasons why ppl don’t fight fuelweaver but a big part is definitely that it’s just a pain to find. A wiki is basically required with how many obtuse steps there are, and with how unfriendly the caves can be to newer players there’s not really much of a reason for them to go down there and explore. They don’t know the ruins exist and there are rewards aplenty for them if they dig deep enough, and why would they? It’s high risk, unknown reward (and if you don’t find the ruins it’s basically no reward)
I knew a person who still has more hours in dst than I do, and they had no idea that fuelweaver even existed, let alone how to summon it. I was using a wiki, and they never did. 

Well, i have seen throw the years how a good ammount of people (not saying they are mayority) playing for the beauty of the game, with every danger tunned down or removed, with mods affecting the difficulty and increasing the decorative choices, etc.

Neither im saying they shouldn't play in that way, for that exists settings and mods, but i think that for that group of people wont matter how much a boss is nerfed because they arent interested in combat, not atleast in difficult ones. They enjoy other of the many aspects of the game

People who is interested on the bosses will only need less obscure summoning methods, more hints. 

The downgrade already came in form of combat perks character refresh and skill trees. The game's fights are becoming to be unbalanced for more than 1 person due the the variety of aoe damage, huge dps boost and crowd control perks

Stuff like bunnymen, gun powder, darts, etc are losing value but still a useful for people arent still used to fighting the big ones

Fuelweaver is perfect in the way he is, the only problem he has are outside of the fight itself but in finding the and assembling the puzzle pieces and wasting time knowing what items bring to the fight to counter his mechanics (the atrium needs a rework to be more rewarding and less tedious to navigate)

[grm9]

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

The mutated bosses are very fun and are not at all "braindead fights" 

they're, you just walk in a specific direction after the boss indicates that you need to do that to kill it, compare that to FW p2 that requires you to manage woven shadows and unseen hands timers, dodging bone cage, staying above 10% sanity for only 1 nightmare, going far away enough from FW and making sure that he won't walk into woven shadows before mind control etc.

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You are in a small minority of people who actually like him the way he is

you don't have any statistics

2 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

They're fun like the werepig bosses and Celestial Champion

they aren't either imo, there's only 1 extremely simple and most effective strat for them unlike old bosses

[Swiyss]

On 6/29/2024 at 4:41 PM, DegenerateFurry said:

Fuelweaver Rework
This one's probably going to be the most controversial part of my suggestions, but I'd like to see Fuelweaver reworked to suck less to fight solo and to be less of a resource sink like Crab King was. I'm not going to go into detail because that'd warrant its own thread, but I think it'd be a nice part of an update chain to the caves, one that many players would appreciate. As a compromise, perhaps we could get some kind of "woven memory" item to use on the shadow atrium to make it use the current fight for those people who prefer how it is now? Sort of like how you can add nightmare fuel to the Terrarium to make it summon the Twins instead - but the default fight would be the reworked one.

I just had a cool idea. Might be very time consuming to do, but.. what if AFW runs towards the entrance of the arena, breaking the bones that block the path. Then, when he's killed the first time, giving 5 dreadstones to charlie would instantly make the atrium labirynth corrupt with floor-damaging fuel, only damaging the player and forcing them to run back to the tentapillar through the maze to not get swallowed by the fuel.

but I can only agree with such changes if the game gets kinda harder with the new enemies. Currently dst late game feels too perfect, and almost nothing bothers the player. There's no more choice to engage with hard content since people want BS gear but without the problems that comes with it EVEN when there's a BIG message that warns the player that the world will change forever. Honestly it feels like a scam to think the game got harder.

[loopuleasa]

What if we don't change AWF

He is perfection

[Swiyss]

On 6/30/2024 at 1:24 PM, Gashzer said:

These are your personal opinions as a skilled player. Which is fair enough.

However you do not come close to accurately representing the average DST player. Especially when including console players.

Afw needs a nerf, toadstool needs reworked, bee queen could do with a small touch up, dfly needs a rework.

Just get good. Literally just get better, how hard is that? It's a game, it's a challenge. Super mario always had people sweating and trying again and again and again and NO ONE complains about how hard the game is since the rest is awesome. If klei focus on making the game awesome instead of easier then no one will complain about a hard crab king fight since the loot is worth it. Yeah, basically the problem was the loot.

Cbk rework was a baby cry from people who couldn't deal with him, now he's... not him anymore + they still didn't fix the fact that people will STILL use only 1 gem type, so how about that?

Only 1 thing got fixed and it was the loot. AFW doesn't need any fixes.. the loot is great, the fight is great and the anticipation is great.

On 6/30/2024 at 11:14 PM, goblinball said:

The average person doesn’t engage with soulslikes at all. The average dst player on the other hand will engage with skill trees and want to engage with affinities (assuming their character has one yet). If they never beat fw and can’t engage with affinities that’s a problem. You need to design things with your core audience (the average dst player) in mind.

im neither for nor against reworking fw I’m just pointing out how this is a false equivalency 

Man this is just ridiculous.

If the loot is as good as how hard it is to obatin it, then no one would be complaining. But a mere 10% damage and nothing else would be consider INSULTING for people who spent a lot of time grinding for that fuelweaver fight or cc fight. I didn't, so I can't talk for them since I think the fights are just a matter of practice anyways.

On 7/1/2024 at 5:32 AM, arubaro said:

But why the average person dont engage with FW and CC? Is really because the difficulty, for how obscure is to find them or because some people os attracted by the graphics and because they think is another cozy building game?

I think that skill trees already downgrade the difficulty for the average player that will to engage with content but it needs to be less obscure while a good ammount of people wont do the effort of fighting them even if they were as easy as deerclops

Making it less obscure would intend literally making it less don't starvy. It's the identity of the game. 

There are better solutions to these problems than compromising the game's identity.

21 hours ago, Larael said:

- Almost every person skipped the fight with crab king due to his desing and "dificult" (bees chesse and that stuff)

How do you say things like that? The REALITY is :
INFLUENCE. Youtubers and streamers and people of power were the ones who pressured Klei to change that, and the pressure was so big that 90% of players were forced to agree with their opinion instead of having their own opinions because it is easier to just go with the current instead of against it.

Reality is that is hard to have an opinion when you have no people of power to back you up. And the sad reality is that the real "elitists" who defended old cbking had basically no voice.

[Swiyss]

I said it before and I'll say it again, reworking crab king was NOT the best decision that the developers at Klei could've had. The reason for that is simple, the ones who prefer old cbking over what you present are not gonna be happy. If they like it, there's still a world where people who WANTED a rework will not be satisfied with what you made. And to top it off there's the case where the rework is good for both sides, but some other people will always feel nostalgic with removing an old boss from the game.

The best thing Klei could've done is to check exactly what the problem was. And in my opinion it was the loot and the gems fights. But even then I still think that there was no problem at all with him being a hard uncompromising fight needed for progression. In no way, shape or form I ever thought of him being even as close to an annoyance as people have portrayed, he was just HARD, THAT'S IT. And the reality is that these big influencers wanted 

1. better loot
2. no effort
3. no risk of losing anything
4. no risk of having to do it again.

And those people are the ones who are accostumed to things being easy.

I took almost 2 hours of my life and died almost 30 times to kill a tree sentinel in elden ring on lvl 1 with a naked class and literally 5/5 of my friends were screaming that I was dumb, that I needed to summon help, that I needed to lvl up first, that I was stupid for my decisions, and at the end of the day I felt 10x more dopamine and joy from doing it the "hard way" and finally accomplishing that goal instead of first trying it the easy way.

If you people tried, atleast once, to kill an armored bearger with a dark sword and no armor, you would realize how satisfying it is after. Being able to say "I did it" is way better than cheesing it or doing it the easy way. Now, I am NOT saying how YOU should play the game, what I'm saying is YOU should NOT be the ONLY opinion when it comes to the DESIGN of a boss. There is a world where when reworking afw, Klei loses all support from people that don't interact with the community and are just nostalgic to the game. Why risk it?

"Just kill crabking with the other gems, then you'll have a harder fight". Fair enough. I did it after someone told me that, and Yes, It did felt great. But it still doesn't change the fact that people want the game to be only good for them. Basically saying "I don't like the game harder, so I don't care about making the fight easier since it benefits me", This is most of you guys in the forums.

So if I try to break it down exactly how to develop a game, I would have to take in consideration everyone. how about "let's not make the boss too hard, but let's make an optional harder fight with a little tiny reward for those who want a challenge" or "let's make a very great reward for this fight since it is a hard one, and a lesser reward for this other guy since his fight is easier".

Toadstool is a long fight, and the rewards do not match how much effort it takes to hit him for 15 minutes straight I agree, but don't just rework the boss, just add a cool loot to it. But to say that AFW needs a rework is mind boggling, he's probably has the best loot in the game AND can be killed with brightshade gear for those who just wanna do it the easy way.

How about we start envisioning a world where both players can coexist in this game instead of aguing that MY WAY is better. Please just drop the ego and do constructing criticism. Trying to change other people's opinions is asking to do the impossible.

[RetRunt]

32 minutes ago, Swiyss said:

I took almost 2 hours of my life and died almost 30 times to kill a tree sentinel in elden ring on lvl 1 with a naked class and literally 5/5 of my friends were screaming that I was dumb, that I needed to summon help, that I needed to lvl up first, that I was stupid for my decisions, and at the end of the day I felt 10x more dopamine and joy from doing it the "hard way" and finally accomplishing that goal instead of first trying it the easy way.

The majority of people and players don't have time to waste on nonsensical challenges and designs.

[Swiyss]

10 minutes ago, RetRunt said:

The majority of people and players don't have time to waste on nonsensical challenges and designs.

Right so then we will ignore everyone who like good designs and interesting challenges just because the majority of people think it's nonsensical? 

Also, how do you affirm something like that so vague with 0 data or information to back it up, do you know everyone in the community?

seriously, this is a waste of my time..

[Jimothywastaken]

8 hours ago, DegenerateFurry said:

You are in a small minority of people who actually like him the way he is. 

i would actually really like to see numbers from the general dst community (not just the forums) on how they feel about a fuelweaver rework
in the dst spheres im in most people like fuelweaver as is but id like to hear what the overall community thinks 

[Wormboi]

4 hours ago, RetRunt said:

The majority of people and players don't have time to waste on nonsensical challenges and designs.

Also you dont get more awards for doing self improvised challenges, like a player who beats deerclops with nothing but a spear gets the same loot as a person who cheesed it using tentacles 

[Mysterious box]

4 hours ago, RetRunt said:

The majority of people and players don't have time to waste on nonsensical challenges and designs.

Okay serious question using this logic what's stopping a deerclopes rework to make the fight easier?

[Wormboi]

1 hour ago, Mysterious box said:

Okay serious question using this logic what's stopping a deerclopes rework to make the fight easier?

No one asking for deerclops rework crabking, was a meme because how bad his fight was.

[Mysterious box]

5 minutes ago, Wormboi said:

No one asking for deerclops rework crabking was a meme because how bad his fight was.

That's not the point though there are tons of people who can't beat deerclopes and it's often a run ender for newer players so why shouldn't it get reworked as well going purely by the logic of the previous comment.

Heck there are even angry steam reviews about it.

[arubaro]

5 hours ago, Swiyss said:

Right so then we will ignore everyone who like good designs and interesting challenges just because the majority of people think it's nonsensical? 

Also, how do you affirm something like that so vague with 0 data or information to back it up, do you know everyone in the community?

seriously, this is a waste of my time..

The problem is that ck didnt felt like a good design... he had a good base but the execution was really boring

The new ck has a good base too but the execution is far from perfect

Tbh, uncompromising mod's CK, even if not perfect, have a better base for what an ocean fight should be