Crab King's ice barrier shouldn't stop players using ranged weapons like Weather Pain or Fire/Ice/BS staff

[Cassielu]

First, it will make more sense that because we can now use things like BS bombs, winona catapult and cannon on him to cross the barrier and damage him. If they can, then wands should work, too.

Second, it allows for more interesting and diverse strategies. Such as freezing crab king or summon tornado on it to prevent it from healing itself (like the old crab king!). Create more ways for single players to deal with crab minions.

[Jakepeng99]

I agree. A criticism i saw with modern bosses is they are built around 1 specific way of fighting them and can become repetitive.

 

The downside of using gadgets is cost, so it is up to the player to invest resources and other items in these to make it easier, or save resources to make it harder, instead of forcing them into one strategy.

[hoxi]

I'd need to check in the code and test for this but this could be unintentional for all I know, projectiles in this game are finnicky. Regardless, I'm pretty sure disabling collisions with the ice barrier should be possible, and I agree that that would give the player more options.

In the case of tornados, that's something else given that they're not really projectiles, they're basically npcs, that move around and use pathing, which means that it could also be unintentional (I know that tornados are finnicky when pointed from land to land with water in between, because they try to avoid water entirely in those cases to get to nearby land, instead of travelling in a straight line, and when on land, they try to avoid moving into water).

[Arcwell]

28 minutes ago, hoxi said:

In the case of tornados, that's something else given that they're not really projectiles, they're basically npcs, that move around and use pathing, which means that it could also be unintentional (I know that tornados are finnicky when pointed from land to land with water in between, because they try to avoid water entirely in those cases to get to nearby land, instead of travelling in a straight line, and when on land, they try to avoid moving into water).

It's not an issue specific to tornados. Crab King is completely untargetable by anything outside of the ice wall after it spawns. This extends to everything, including mob targetting (i.e. killer bees). As far as I know there's no way to enter its radius after it spawns, including using lazy explorer or having bees fly over it. Interestingly though, if something is inside the ice wall when it spawns (bees, for instance), they can attack CK to their heart's content. 

[Gashzer]

1 hour ago, Jakepeng99 said:

I agree. A criticism i saw with modern bosses is they are built around 1 specific way of fighting them and can become repetitive.

 

The downside of using gadgets is cost, so it is up to the player to invest resources and other items in these to make it easier, or save resources to make it harder, instead of forcing them into one strategy.

Ah but gadgets like the panflute are overwhelmingly poweful atm.

Enraged Dfly, bee queen, this new crab king against mini crabs, sleeping klaus' krampii, toadstool all become alot easier using the same gadget.

Modern bosses having one specific way is a design win not a failure. We just need more bosses with different combat related methods to fight them. An example would be a boss that requires follower support to kill instead of raw kiting skill solo to win as normal, i want to be shoehorned into using different tactics not just panflute=win. 

As for ranged weapons i think none of them should effect crab king. Instead klei should work on followers being useful for the fight... Cause it is wurt that is being updated after all..... 

[grm9]

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

i want to be shoehorned into using different tactics not just panflute=win

it doesn't work against FW and old CK tho, 1 pan flute also isn't enough for spamming it on BQ and toad at least if you don't have a damage multiplier

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Modern bosses having one specific way is a design win not a failure

it's an issue because they become boring after you kill them once or twice

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

We just need more bosses with different combat related methods to fight them

why not bosses with multiple different methods for fighting them, like ANR bosses?

7 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

i want to be shoehorned

no, that's extremely bad, you're asking the devs to force everyone to play in a specific way even if they don't want to

[Fufuji]

I love this idea! Boss battles should make more diversity.

[Gashzer]

33 minutes ago, Fufuji said:

I love this idea! Boss battles should make more diversity.

More diversity is actually less diverse. Because everyone will gravitate towards the same "best method" so the choice of picking what way best to fight a boss is an illusion.  This best method could be the same for several different bosses.

Look back at my previous example of the panflute being so strong for so many bosses. 

Sure lets make the new crab king another boss to add to the panflutes belt of bosses it trivialises.

[Arcwell]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

More diversity is actually less diverse. Because everyone will gravitate towards the same "best method" so the choice of picking what way best to fight a boss is an illusion.  This best method could be the same for several different bosses.

The reason everyone uses panflute is because there are no good alternatives. It is because the fight limits you, not because you have freedom of choice in the fight. You need to cancel CK's heals during ice phase, which means you don't have time to be attacking crabs unless you have overwhelming damage (i.e. more than 1 player). As a solo 1x damage character, this means you currently have two options: crowd control the crabs (i.e. through panflute), or tank them. There is hardly any difference between these strategies.

To illustrate this, here's a fight that tanks crabs instead of panfluting them

Spoiler

And for a side-by-side comparison, here is the current panflute strat:

Spoiler

They are virtually the same fight, except you click panflute less and click healing more. If two strategies are nearly identical and one uses less resources, of course people will use that. This is not more diversity causing less diversity. This is no diversity to begin with.

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, Arcwell said:

The reason everyone uses panflute is because there are no good alternatives. It is because the fight limits you, not because you have freedom of choice in the fight. You need to cancel CK's heals during ice phase, which means you don't have time to be attacking crabs unless you have overwhelming damage (i.e. more than 1 player). As a solo 1x damage character, this means you currently have two options: crowd control the crabs (i.e. through panflute), or tank them. There is hardly any difference between these strategies.

To illustrate this, here's a fight that tanks crabs instead of panfluting them

  Hide contents

 

And for a side-by-side comparison, here is the current panflute strat:

  Hide contents

 

They are virtually the same fight, except you click panflute less and click healing more. If two strategies are nearly identical and one uses less resources, of course people will use that. This is not more diversity causing less diversity. This is no diversity to begin with.

Yeah and a really great solution to this is to get followers working correctly not to necessarily allow a solo 1x damage character to do the fight without any issues.

There is no diversity between bosses when we can apply the same simple kiting technique that most people have mastered now. There needs to be abit of extra incentive to try and use mechanics like followers.

So i like the fact new crab king is punishing kiting.