Suggestions for modifying the tree planting mechanism of Toadstol and Misery Toadstol

[zhangsheng]

In my opinion, the main issue with Toadstool and Misery Toadstool is not in terms of blood volume, but in the mechanism of tree planting.
Their tree planting timing is based on time, with trees planted every once in a while. Characters who lack efficiency in cutting down trees often end up with the next time they cut down a tree. The mushroom tree grows endlessly, making it difficult for normal characters to produce effective output.
So my suggestion is to change the interval between tree planting from a certain period of time to a fixed amount of health, and change the variable tree planting to a fixed one.
Toddstool and Misery Toddstool start planting trees every time they lose a fixed amount of health. In this way, a normal character can slowly chop down the tree and then initiate effective output on Toadstol until the next tree planting stage.
The endless mushroom tree is very bad, I hope Klei can take my opinion.

[grm9]

that'd make the fight even easier than it currently is, you can chop 1 tree to decrease toadstool's level and let the rest burn even with default work multiplier 

[zhangsheng]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that'd make the fight even easier than it currently is, you can chop 1 tree to decrease toadstool's level and let the rest burn even with default work multiplier 

It is to make it more convenient for all 1.0 characters to deal with Toadstool. Having a high health Toadsool is already difficult, not to mention the endless mushroom trees.
Chopping a tree can only reduce its strength to a small extent. Burning trees can also pollute the site, making combat more difficult. Compared to the previous mechanism, my suggestion is reasonable.

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

It is to make it more convenient for all 1.0 characters to deal with Toadstool. Having a high health Toadsool is already difficult, not to mention the endless mushroom trees.
Chopping a tree can only reduce its strength to a small extent. Burning trees can also pollute the site, making combat more difficult. Compared to the previous mechanism, my suggestion is reasonable

yes that'd just make it easier and more boring, burn the trees and deal with the clouds if you can or get glass axes/weather pains otherwise

[zhangsheng]

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

yes that'd just make it easier and more boring, burn the trees and deal with the clouds if you can or get glass axes/weather pains otherwise

I don't know what your definition of boredom is.
Is it a fun experience to constantly cut down mushroom trees or avoid their pollution on the site, making it difficult to effectively output Toadsool?
Is it interesting to constantly elongate boss battles? Our attention should be on Toadsool, not on the mushroom tree.

[JustAFlower]

My idea to destroy those trees is that Toadstool could get a new attack that launches mushrooms kinda like missiles on the player, aaaannd those mushrooms can one-shot the trees soo yeah that's how I see a qol on Toadstool to change this tree planting mechanism.

[grm9]

13 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

I don't know what your definition of boredom is.
Is it a fun experience to constantly cut down mushroom trees or avoid their pollution on the site, making it difficult to effectively output Toadsool?
Is it interesting to constantly elongate boss battles? Our attention should be on Toadsool, not on the mushroom tree

toadstool is easy to deal with on it's own so making mushtrees irrelevant for the fight and making chopping them before ut summons more require no effort would make the fight even more boring and practically impossible to mess up

11 minutes ago, JustAFlower said:

My idea to destroy those trees is that Toadstool could get a new attack that launches mushrooms kinda like missiles on the player, aaaannd those mushrooms can one-shot the trees soo yeah that's how I see a qol on Toadstool to change this tree planting mechanism

you can just burn most of the trees so they're gone by the time it starts summoning them again, it has 20% absorption with 4 mushtrees which can be ignored

[zhangsheng]

14 minutes ago, grm9 said:

toadstool is easy to deal with on it's own so making mushtrees irrelevant for the fight and making chopping them before ut summons more require no effort would make the fight even more boring and practically impossible to mess up

Elongated boss battles are the source of boredom. How much time and energy would a normal character have to spend to deal with such a boss with 99999 health points, and to free up their hands to deal with the mushroom tree? How can these painful experiences of combat be described as interesting?
It is precisely because the original planting mechanism is so bad that so many people choose cheese. Other methods that people would use if they were dissuaded by its very long boss fight.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, zhangsheng said:

Elongated boss battles are the source of boredom. How much time and energy would a normal character have to spend to deal with such a boss with 99999 health points, and to free up their hands to deal with the mushroom tree? How can these painful experiences of combat be described as interesting?
It is precisely because the original planting mechanism is so bad that so many people choose cheese. Other methods that people would use if they were dissuaded by its very long boss fight

it'd become even more boring if mushtrees wouldn't have been an issue because then there wouldnybe anything remotely hard or interesting to deal with

[zhangsheng]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it'd become even more boring if mushtrees wouldn't have been an issue because then there wouldnybe anything remotely hard or interesting to deal with

The most interesting thing is to be able to finish this boss early and obtain the blueprint. No one will repeatedly defeat this boss just to get a "good combat experience".

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

The most interesting thing is to be able to finish this boss early and obtain the blueprint. No one will repeatedly defeat this boss just to get a "good combat experience"

most people didn't even try killing it with ham bat and torch

[zhangsheng]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

most people didn't even try killing it with ham bat and torch

After reading your reply, I seriously suspect that you have not defeated Toadstol. When did you see people using ham bat to defeat Toadsool. That ham hat will soon run out.

I now understand your previous statement.

[grm9]

12 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

That ham hat will soon run out

drop it onto the ground before going away to drop the spore bomb

 

https://youtu.be/cRsbqRsmYBM?si=c8DENIVM8qagRYE1

[thetrueprime]

I really like this idea to improve the fight. I think a lot of the challenge of many of the fights in the game is about ending it quicker to avoid damage and resource drain, so there is still plenty of motivation to chop the trees as quick as possible, but it just makes it a bit less painful for the slow choppers

 

If this is balanced correctly , it should probably consider the maximum of time and health phase, so very fast versions of the fight are not punished more either with too many trees than they got before, it's only if you are slow enough that the health is used instead.

[arubaro]

Glass axes exists

Since they were added i dont use more than 1 weather pain

If you want an easier experience eat food with honey spice... 

[zhangsheng]

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

drop it onto the ground before going away to drop the spore bomb

 

https://youtu.be/cRsbqRsmYBM?si=c8DENIVM8qagRYE1

Okay, I haven't heard of this gameplay, but is it more difficult than using other weapons.

[grm9]

16 minutes ago, zhangsheng said:

but is it more difficult than using other weapons

try the fight yourself that way if you want? you could use that for removing the mushtrees if you don't have glass axes/weather pains/character specific stuff for chopping and instead ask to decrease it's hp/wait for all characters to get fighting perks in their skill trees if you think that the fight is too long

[Sir Noel]

3 hours ago, grm9 said:

most people didn't even try killing it with ham bat and torch

I feel like a lot of your posts to anything mentioning a boss tweak is "there is already a method currently that works." And if those methods work for you and you find them fun, then hey, more power to you. However repeating the same idea in almost every post just turns the discussion into something else.

Can you honestly say every boss in the game currently, especially raids are the best version of their fights they can be? And yes, I know you think the AG rework is easy. But IMO that's a cop out answer and AG shouldn't be setting your standard of how Klei reworks bosses in the future. AG to me was never meant to be that hard and that is clear with his HP. 

[grm9]

34 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

I feel like a lot of your posts to anything mentioning a boss tweak is "there is already a method currently that works." And if those methods work for you and you find them fun, then hey, more power to you. However repeating the same idea in almost every post just turns the discussion into something else

i just don't want the fights to become too easy and boring because of people suggesting nerfing the bosses, because then these strats wouldn't work anymore or would be pointless or would be much easier and less risky to do

34 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

Can you honestly say every boss in the game currently, especially raids are the best version of their fights they can be?

no, i want klei to add something that'd indicate that you can dodge FW's bone cage, other than that, if you mean ANR bosses, yes except klaus, antlion being easy to kill at least makes sense because it's a seasonal boss and it dies quickly so you're unlikely to get bored but klaus takes too much time and is boring, CK also needs a few changes e.g. an indication and possibly a slightly bigger window for pearled solo heal cancel and being able to place boats on top of items and birds and less claws hp and everything went downhill since CC (or maybe it was terraria eyes, i don't remember which got added first), i guess they stopped adding puzzle and hard bosses

34 minutes ago, Sir Noel said:

And yes, I know you think the AG rework is easy. But IMO that's a cop out answer and AG shouldn't be setting your standard of how Klei reworks bosses in the future. AG to me was never meant to be that hard and that is clear with his HP.

the most recent bosses with more than 10k hp are twins and CC, both of which are also bad imo

[00petar00]

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

i just don't want the fights to become too easy and boring because of people suggesting nerfing the bosses, because then these strats wouldn't work anymore or would be pointless or would be much easier and less risky to do

The thing is that you are 0.01% of players that fights bosses using the most difficult strategies. I don't think you can find even a 100 people that play like that and that is a very generous number.

Toadstool is already very boring and making him a bit more boring to you wouldn't make much of a difference when it would make fight less boring for everyone else that doesn't find it fun using such methods or even learning them.

FW takes a lot more from me because I don't enjoy the fight that much personally so I don't even like practicing it, I don't really like the resource drain when I can kill most bosses without nearly as much preparation and inventory management/juggling so many items at once.

I know that If I practice long enough, I'll be able to do it with less items and less prep as that is how it usually goes for most bosses but FW without weather pain or lazy explorer is a much more difficult fight that I don't really want to bother learning when I don't like it as much as others.

Personally, I wouldn't really want to ruin the experience for players that enjoy it so If we can cheese or use exploits for the boss, i don't really have a problem with it. The issue is that klei is removing cheese/exploits while you want the boss fights to stay the same and that probably won't happen as it can be seen from threads that popped up when lureplant was changed during beta.

[grm9]

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

klei is removing cheese/exploits

i don't want that either

1 minute ago, 00petar00 said:

Toadstool is already very boring and making him a bit more boring to you wouldn't make much of a difference when it would make fight less boring for everyone else that doesn't find it fun using such methods or even learning them

it wouldn't make it less boring, you'd still chop mushtrees and hit it for same amount of time, just won't need to get glass axes/weather pains in that case, it's hp could get reduced so torch and ham bat strat still works and is useful but people that think that toadstool is boring because it takes too much time won't consider it as boring

[00petar00]

Just now, grm9 said:

i don't want that either

I know but you'll have to come to terms that If they keep going at it bosses will have to be made easier and not just because players can't kill them but they need to be farmable without it becoming too boring after you kill the same boss 30 times on the same world.

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

it wouldn't make it less boring, you'd still chop mushtrees and hit it for same amount of time, just won't need to get glass axes/weather pains in that case, it's hp could get reduced so torch and ham bat strat still works and is useful but people that think that toadstool is boring because it takes too much time won't consider it as boring

4 hours ago, grm9 said:

yes that'd just make it easier and more boring, burn the trees and deal with the clouds if you can or get glass axes/weather pains otherwise

So you meant that if burning trees is punishment it would be boring and not that tree spawning mechanic limited to health?

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, 00petar00 said:

So you meant that if burning trees is punishment it would be boring and not that tree spawning mechanic limited to health?

i meant that burning trees would become worthless and pointless and impossible to fail if cd for growing trees will only start after the last tree will get removed

[EatenCheetos]

5 hours ago, grm9 said:

most people didn't even try killing it with ham bat and torch

I suspected you were a troll before, but this confirms it.

1 hour ago, grm9 said:

i don't want that either

Same with this.

2 hours ago, Sir Noel said:

I feel like a lot of your posts to anything mentioning a boss tweak is "there is already a method currently that works." And if those methods work for you and you find them fun, then hey, more power to you. However repeating the same idea in almost every post just turns the discussion into something else.

I agree here. @grm9 You have to stop shutting down suggestions just because they don’t benefit you personally. In these types of threads we have to think about the greater good of the game.

[grm9]

1 hour ago, EatenCheetos said:

the greater good of the game

that isn't a thing, if you mean making more people play the game, sure, need to make everything easier, but then a lot of people would also stop playing, similarly to making stuff harder without workarounds e.g. or adding mandatory stuff