cropo Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 I think the game has come too far in large-scale raid battles to really have too much forced content these days. Before they nerfed hound waves the "meta" just became turtling near a trap field for most of your gametime, or relogging to literally avoid it because it was annoying and actually limited the scope of what you could realistically do in the game. Forcing an entire era of content on players, especially at the year one mark when there's so many raid bosses to grind for, and also denying them the rewards for dealing with planar stuff constantly so that the only thing they do is make the game more miserable if you don't speedrun AFW(because CC takes a much longer time, and a less fun quest to grind for.). It would also force beefalo domestication, a mechanic I do not enjoy as one cannot realistically hope the move the statues across the world to the proper spots unless you're playing Wolfgang or Walter. Forced content worked better in Singleplayer because the environment was better for it, less bloated HP totals, less emphasis on boss battles. Stopping the aporkalypse wasn't reliant on beating a 16k hp healing-invincible menace, it was finding a proper spot and bombing it to step on a switch. Now if rifts content was forced, and gave the player the rewards for doing it so they can more easily defeat Fuelweaver and CK that would actually be better imo and offer an alternative and natural way to accessing rifts without turning it on in world settings, 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Noel Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 hours ago, Maxil20 said: If we are going to compare it to Terraria 1.1 (the update that introduced hardmode), I would say they are pretty similar at the moment, with a few armor sets, some new enemies, and the "final" opponents being the mech bosses as opposed to the mutated ones. Once you got hallowed armor and your mech weapons, you pretty much experienced all of what hardmode was at the time. I'm not gonna sugarcoat it and expect DST to add a fully fleshed out hardmode equivalent for a very long time, but I do see them progressively chipping away at it with future arcs. I personally wouldn't mind that, since a lot of the content Klei has added for years has been heavily focused on having many things to do at the beginning of the game, so an incentive to push a world further is nice. It just has to have more incentive/reasons to get there, of course. A "hardmode" for DST is such an awesome idea that I'm honestly surprised we don't have something like it in the game already! I can already imagine some ideas to how this would affect the world: tougher seasons, tons of new surface/cave enemies, maybe a beefed up ruins/archives?, the whole works. Truly depends on what the developers imagine post Rift content to look like, but I'd love to see the theme of "choosing a side" possibly coming back into the picture (in terms of the gameplay anyway). Having said this, I still feel like some care would need to be put into balancing items so that "Pre-HM" survival items wouldn't just fall into the abyss of unviability in Rifts+. I know this was (and mostly still is) a hot topic since most Rifts+ content requires you to use Rift equipment to have a good time with it, so this would probably take quite a while to think over and just in general transform the game so much, so I wouldn't blame the developers for taking their sweet time with it one bit. Using Terraria as an example again (oh no we are just turning this game into Terraria aren't we...) most expert mode drops are super useful throughout the entire game, i.e Shield of Cthulhu, and I'd honestly say I would like the same to apply (to an extent) for some Pre-Rifts content as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siren11 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 2 hours ago, Yuuko said: A better option would be to ALSO have the portal activity start independently, like at the 1 year mark. If you haven't completed CC or AFW by this time they'll activate anyway and give you that push. Only you won't get the crafts, only the spawns. Add the Bright Smithy and Shadow Plinth as blueprints dropped from CC and AFW, or make them craft-able only from a post CC Moon Quay portal and repaired Atrium Gate. This would be awful for newer players. I like to play on the same world for 1000+ days (partially bc I can’t accomplish things nearly as fast as most of you), and being pushed into a harder game mode that I can’t really counter without beating bosses I can’t beat yet would just… suck. I wouldn’t mind if Klei started adding new survival challenges after the first year or so. I don’t think everything in the game should be an optional boss that the player can fight whenever they’re ready (as much as I enjoy those fights). But Fuelweaver, Celestial Champion, and rifts (sans planar armor) are complicated in a way that shouldn’t be forced on players before they’re ready for the challenge imo. I always have fun exploring new fights and new challenges (not to mention new loot), and that’s enough to push me to try these fights even when I fail. I don’t need or want to be forced into it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reecitz Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Siren11 said: This would be awful for newer players. I like to play on the same world for 1000+ days (partially bc I can’t accomplish things nearly as fast as most of you), and being pushed into a harder game mode that I can’t really counter without beating bosses I can’t beat yet would just… suck. I wouldn’t mind if Klei started adding new survival challenges after the first year or so. I don’t think everything in the game should be an optional boss that the player can fight whenever they’re ready (as much as I enjoy those fights). But Fuelweaver, Celestial Champion, and rifts (sans planar armor) are complicated in a way that shouldn’t be forced on players before they’re ready for the challenge imo. I always have fun exploring new fights and new challenges (not to mention new loot), and that’s enough to push me to try these fights even when I fail. I don’t need or want to be forced into it. I kinda sense a pattern of people, mostly veterans, not really thinking out or caring for what the experience is like for new players. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 7 hours ago, EatenCheetos said: Restrictions make survival games more fun and are the heart of the genre. I’m tired of this “let people play the way they want” mindset. Imagine if, for example, Deerclops wasn’t a thing and I suggest that the exact same mechanic gets added. People would complain that it’s too restrictive to force players to prepare for a boss in the middle of winter. Letting players do what they want all the time forever is kind of the antithesis of the genre you still didn't say why you can't just enable rifts through settings after day 71 starts or delete the world at that day if both rifts didn't get activated yet, why do you need the devs to push everyone into playing how you already can play without changes? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siren11 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, Reecitz said: I kinda sense a pattern of people, mostly veterans, not really thinking out or caring for what the experience is like for new players. I think a lot of people want to re-experience the feelings Don’t Starve/DST gave them when they were new and actually struggled with the game’s challenges. But realistically, I don’t think anything Klei adds will be much of a challenge for anyone who’s got thousands of hours in the game. Maybe an actual “hardmode” would help? I think rifts are actually a good way of continuing the game for experienced players, and hopefully Klei will continue to add more late-game survival challenges. I want everyone to have fun playing! I just don’t want that fun to come at anyone else’s expense. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arubaro Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 4 hours ago, cropo said: I think the game has come too far in large-scale raid battles to really have too much forced content these days. Before they nerfed hound waves the "meta" just became turtling near a trap field for most of your gametime, or relogging to literally avoid it because it was annoying and actually limited the scope of what you could realistically do in the game. Forcing an entire era of content on players, especially at the year one mark when there's so many raid bosses to grind for, and also denying them the rewards for dealing with planar stuff constantly so that the only thing they do is make the game more miserable if you don't speedrun AFW(because CC takes a much longer time, and a less fun quest to grind for.). It would also force beefalo domestication, a mechanic I do not enjoy as one cannot realistically hope the move the statues across the world to the proper spots unless you're playing Wolfgang or Walter. Forced content worked better in Singleplayer because the environment was better for it, less bloated HP totals, less emphasis on boss battles. Stopping the aporkalypse wasn't reliant on beating a 16k hp healing-invincible menace, it was finding a proper spot and bombing it to step on a switch. Now if rifts content was forced, and gave the player the rewards for doing it so they can more easily defeat Fuelweaver and CK that would actually be better imo and offer an alternative and natural way to accessing rifts without turning it on in world settings, The """meta""", unless you played with lag or were a new player, was to learn how to fight hounds to be able to enjoy the content instead of being afraid of leaving base... Spawning rifts after the player has become good enough to defeat 2 of the most difficult bosses is a better design because it open the possibility of adding things as difficult as them instead of making people that barelly survived X ammount of days suffer. And even in the current state some people complained about 3 stationary mobs being too difficult... Still, rifts needs higher difficulty to feel like we are in a harder difficulty and tbh it should be increased by a lot considering they broke the game with BS staff and howlizer and because is the player who triggers them if desired Edited March 27 by arubaro 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mykenception Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 I get to have the brightshade smasher and staff, and the void reaper. Plus I get to fight the new variations of bosses and it's still getting updates I have survived enough to reach that point so new things to spice em up is nice. With enough knowledge and experience, survival is rather easily dealt with especially if you've reach the point to defeat both bosses that'll enable the rifts. So if you're aim is just to survive as long as possible, you're way beyond that goal if you manage to be at the post-rift point 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cropo Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 3 hours ago, arubaro said: The """meta""", unless you played with lag or were a new player, was to learn how to fight hounds to be able to enjoy the content instead of being afraid of leaving base... Everyone knows how to fight hounds. Hound Waves weren't just 1v1 engagements, or carefully broken up segments. At 1000+ days they would become so overwhelming that not even shadow splemunkeys could rival them. That's not something you can just "fight" because they often have an idle barking animation that breaks the sync of their attacks, so there will always be an active ''hitbox'' that they have that will do damage to you, stunlock you, and on later days most likely kill you in an instant due to the stunlock. You could also try to outrun them, although there were also times when they would push eachother because there were so many of them active at a time, and they could outrun you through that and sometimes even be pushed during their attack animations to still hit you. These waves would happen almost perfectly on queue whenever you are actually trying to do something else, and engaging with them fairly would take like 5 minutes and break up everything else you were doing, you would often just walk around with a telelocator staff, and teleport yourself to your tooth trap spot whenever you hear the warning barks, kill them passively with the trap farm, and then continue doing something you were actually enjoying. They were grossly overtuned, so overtuned that setting hound waves to "lots" on the world gen actually was a better idea for long running worlds because it would fix them at a flat amount that was LESS than a long-running worlds natural scaling of them. Most of the big streamers at the time I watched because Klei likes to hold skins hostage to being forced to watch streams of a game I would rather just be playing is when I figured out you could literally just quit the game and rejoin to stop them, because all the streamers were doing it. It wasn't ''Oh goody, a hound wave, how exciting and interesting to be forced to do this!" it was "uuuugh not another one of these, I don't feel like dealing with this and I don't want to bore you guys with it so I'm gonna relog". Klei nerfing them was one of the best decisions they've ever made. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EatenCheetos Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 5 hours ago, grm9 said: you still didn't say why you can't just enable rifts through settings after day 71 starts or delete the world at that day if both rifts didn't get activated yet Because this isn’t about me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 3 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: Because this isn’t about me other people who want that can also do that people who don't want that can not do that, why force everyone to do that in every world? Edited March 27 by grm9 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EatenCheetos Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 2 minutes ago, grm9 said: other people who want that can also do that people who don't want that can not do that instead of both of them being forced to do that in every world The opposite is true if people want to just turn it off, just like Deerclops. What we have to focus on is what’s best for the game as a whole in terms of keeping survival difficult. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 2 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: The opposite is true if people want to just turn it off, just like Deerclops deerclops is extremely easy to deal with and you could kill it with axes if you would've wanted to, that's not really comparable to forcing people into fighting FW, especially considering they might not know how to summon it 2 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: What we have to focus on is what’s best for the game as a whole "better for game as a whole" is pretty much saying nothing, if you mean more people playing the game then that'd require making it even easier 3 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: in terms of keeping survival difficult the game isn't about survival, if you keep people busy with survival at all times then there'd be no time for doing bosses and if you don't, survival will be boring anyway, you're supposed to have fun on your own instead of asking the devs to force everyone to do what you think is fun, adding something like wetness in RoG makes sense because you need to deal with it at all times but forcing people into fighting FW and CC would only affect people that aren't good at the game and people who prefer making a base instead of killing bosses and turning rifts on would make the game easier instead if you know anything about dodging attacks or make it harder for newbies that might end up stopping playing the game if they'll constantly get annoyed by brightshades 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EatenCheetos Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 3 minutes ago, grm9 said: the game isn't about survival It’s in the name… 3 minutes ago, grm9 said: if you keep people busy with survival at all times then there'd be no time for doing bosses That’s why it’s being suggested to add bosses as part of the survival 5 minutes ago, grm9 said: would only affect people that aren't good at the game and people who prefer making a base instead of killing bosses There are settings for that 5 minutes ago, grm9 said: turning rifts on would make the game easier If you’re referring to the earlier suggestion, it was said that the new crafting stations would be exclusively unlocked by beating AF or CC respectively — and opening rifts isn’t even the only way to make these fights required. 8 minutes ago, grm9 said: newbies that might end up stopping playing the game if they'll constantly get annoyed by brightshades All of these suggestions are for post day 71. New players are not making it that far. Note that after day 100, the difficulty of the game stops ramping, which is incredibly boring. All of the suggestions here would continue adding ramping difficulty to the game in interesting ways that finally connect the new content to the standard experience. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 19 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: There are settings for that the point was that that wouldn't make the game harder for anyone who knows how to play, only add inconvenience for those who prioritize megabasing and newbies that want to play the game on default settings because changing settings usually just removes mechanics or allows using solutions that don't work in case of default settings 21 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: It’s in the name… who except newbies has issues with hunger? 21 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: That’s why it’s being suggested to add bosses as part of the survival why? let people who want to kill them do that and let people that don't want to do that not do that, why force everyone to do what you think is fun? 22 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: If you’re referring to the earlier suggestion, it was said that the new crafting stations would be exclusively unlocked by beating AF or CC respectively — and opening rifts isn’t even the only way to make these fights required there's still no reason to make them required, that'd only reduce the amount of ways in which you can play the game so less people would play it or for less time 23 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: All of these suggestions are for post day 71. New players are not making it that far they're still new players if they only survived summer without killing bosses, most people still think that meatballs and pierogi are good these days, surviving 1 year doesn't make you knowledgeable about everything and able to do FW questline easily 25 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: Note that after day 100, the difficulty of the game stops ramping, which is incredibly boring. All of the suggestions here would continue adding ramping difficulty to the game in interesting ways that finally connect the new content to the standard experience why don't you start doing things that are hard to do on your own instead of forcing everyone to do them, even if they don't like doing them or are newbies and don't even know how to summon FW nor CC? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EatenCheetos Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 3 minutes ago, grm9 said: why force everyone to do what you think is fun? This is going in circles, I’ve already addressed this (and it’s a strawman fallacy) 3 minutes ago, grm9 said: most people still think that meatballs and pierogi are good these days … Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 2 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: This is going in circles, I’ve already addressed this (and it’s a strawman fallacy) and i've already told you that if you meant more people playing the game, then the game would need to become easier for that or at least not have more mandatory hard stuff 2 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: … what? Edited March 27 by grm9 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcwell Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 20 hours ago, EatenCheetos said: The reason you open rifts is to get special equipment that helps you survive the rifts. There’s no reason to open them aside from purposefully making things more difficult. The goal of survival games is either to escape, or to survive as long as possible. Seeing as there’s no way to escape the Constant, the goal of the game is to survive as long as you can. With this in mind, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to experience the new content. I propose that if rifts aren’t going to lead to an endgame, then at least continue the difficulty ramping so the new content is eventually required in order to survive. I'm having trouble following this logic. You don't think rifts are worth opening, so instead of making rifts worth opening (which I'd argue they already are), you want them to be forced open? What problem does this solve that doesn't introduce new problems? If you didn't want to do rifts before, I fail to see how getting rifts forced upon you would be any better. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arubaro Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 (edited) 2 hours ago, cropo said: Everyone knows how to fight hounds. Hound Waves weren't just 1v1 engagements, or carefully broken up segments. At 1000+ days they would become so overwhelming that not even shadow splemunkeys could rival them. That's not something you can just "fight" because they often have an idle barking animation that breaks the sync of their attacks, so there will always be an active ''hitbox'' that they have that will do damage to you, stunlock you, and on later days most likely kill you in an instant due to the stunlock. You could also try to outrun them, although there were also times when they would push eachother because there were so many of them active at a time, and they could outrun you through that and sometimes even be pushed during their attack animations to still hit you. These waves would happen almost perfectly on queue whenever you are actually trying to do something else, and engaging with them fairly would take like 5 minutes and break up everything else you were doing, you would often just walk around with a telelocator staff, and teleport yourself to your tooth trap spot whenever you hear the warning barks, kill them passively with the trap farm, and then continue doing something you were actually enjoying. They were grossly overtuned, so overtuned that setting hound waves to "lots" on the world gen actually was a better idea for long running worlds because it would fix them at a flat amount that was LESS than a long-running worlds natural scaling of them. Most of the big streamers at the time I watched because Klei likes to hold skins hostage to being forced to watch streams of a game I would rather just be playing is when I figured out you could literally just quit the game and rejoin to stop them, because all the streamers were doing it. It wasn't ''Oh goody, a hound wave, how exciting and interesting to be forced to do this!" it was "uuuugh not another one of these, I don't feel like dealing with this and I don't want to bore you guys with it so I'm gonna relog". Klei nerfing them was one of the best decisions they've ever made. Nerfing them was a good change because they happend to often but they arent hard anymore. Neither they were as bad as you are describing. Feels like them being hard is a bad thing, the player must always win no matter how bad is their performance...(And now we have BS staff to make then worthless...)that is a bad game design and a bad mindset for a player but to each their own About your critic to drops... just a dumb complain. Is a bussiness so advertising and sharing media is good for the bussiness. Gladly, with few brain cells one can figure out setting in the background a stream with almost no volume while playing the game...But is so bad that companies wanna grow, they should just sell in hidden caves without advertising . Childish complain Edited March 27 by arubaro 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cropo Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 5 minutes ago, arubaro said: Feels like them being hard is a bad thing, the player must always win no matter how bad is their performance... Depends on what you consider "being hard". Feels like as long as it's hard at all costs it's a good thing, enemies could shoot homing-missles and fire nukes that delete your world if you get hit a single time, and you'd throw a fit if it was removed because the game is no longer hard. 7 minutes ago, arubaro said: Is a bussiness so advertising and sharing media is good for the bussiness Yeah, I couldn't figure that out, but thanks for educating me though. 7 minutes ago, arubaro said: Gladly, with few brain cells one can figure out setting in the background a stream with almost no volume while playing the game... complaining for the sake of complaining You do realize there is more to streams than just turning them off in the background right? That's unecessary data being hogged by something you're actively avoiding. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arubaro Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, cropo said: Depends on what you consider "being hard". Feels like as long as it's hard at all costs it's a good thing, enemies could shoot homing-missles and fire nukes that delete your world if you get hit a single time, and you'd throw a fit if it was removed because the game is no longer hard. Maybe for you it felt like that but for a good bunch of players, hound waves where simply something you needed to fight carefully 5 minutes ago, cropo said: Yeah, I couldn't figure that out, but thanks for educating me though. You are welcome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EatenCheetos Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 57 minutes ago, Arcwell said: You don't think rifts are worth opening, so instead of making rifts worth opening (which I'd argue they already are), you want them to be forced open? Yes exactly. It solves several problems: 1. Lack of late game difficulty ramping 2. Lack of new threats or time pressure after the first year 3. The new content being entirely avoidable in the context of the main goal of the game: survive as long as possible As mentioned earlier, think of all the hurdles that you have to prepare for in the first year: winter, Deerclops, spring, summer, late-game hounds. All of these threats are forced upon the player, which they have limited time to prepare for. As soon as one threat is faced, the next one is right there waiting. It’s brilliant game design, which is why Don’t Starve is so popular in the survival game genre, but it suddenly stops after the first year; everything just repeats and the basic goal of survival is far less interesting. You don’t have to do any of the optional new content, and even if you want to, you have all the time in the world to do it. It’s quite the opposite of the chaotic first year. So, imagine if after the first year the game continues ramping the difficulty and introducing hurdles. For whatever reason (see first couple comments for ideas), the players have to engage with Fuelweaver, Celestial Champion, and rifts. Then, built into the core survival experience the players have to engage with the ruins, Ancient Guardian, shadow pieces, Moose Goose, MacTusk, Bee Queen, sailing, pirate raids, Pearl, Crab King, lunar island, the moonstone event, the ancient archives, moonstorms, Wagstaff, and of course the headliner bosses themselves. All of these would be hurdles added after the first year to keep the game exciting and intense. The specific implementation is still up for discussion, but it would certainly fit with the core game structure established in the first year, as well as solve all 3 of the before-mentioned problems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 35 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: 1. Lack of late game difficulty ramping then just do hard stuff before late game? try to kill all bosses as fast as you can instead of complaining on the forums and asking the devs to force everyone to do that 46 minutes ago, EatenCheetos said: 3. The new content being entirely avoidable in the context of the main goal of the game: survive as long as possible you can avoid all content except stuff that got added to original DS if you want, no one forces you to interact with anything except basic stuff required to survive and no one should Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EatenCheetos Posted March 27 Author Share Posted March 27 4 minutes ago, grm9 said: then just do hard stuff before late game? try to kill all bosses as fast as you can instead of complaining on the forums and asking the devs to force everyone to do that As I said previously, this isn’t about me, and self-imposed challenges don’t work towards benefiting the game as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grm9 Posted March 27 Share Posted March 27 1 hour ago, EatenCheetos said: As I said previously, this isn’t about me, and self-imposed challenges don’t work towards benefiting the game as a whole i've already told you twice that if you mean making more people play the game, then it'd need to become easier instead of harder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now