Small Suggestions for Improving Combat Experience against Scrap Werepig

[Fufuji]

There are countless problems in the current version of Scrap Werepig and I'll go brief.

1. Tackle dilemma: in stage 1&2 when he only has shoulder spike, he'll try soooo hard to use his attack that he will charge at very close range to avoid bumping onto Teetering Junk Pile, leaving players no chance to dodge. This is probably due to that he is not allowed to tackle when he and the player are in line with Teetering Junk Pile.

Suggestion: none. devs need to find a solution.

2. Stage 3 attacks are performed completely randomly, there's no possibility to dodge all his attacks if players wish to kite and attack. In order to avoid taking damage, players must coward behind the fences and wait until his shoulder spike run out of durability. This makes the battle very stupid and greatly increases time cost.

Suggestion: none. Is there really an approach that may allow even most experienced players to indicate/lure certain attacks in stage 3?

3. Stage 3 attacks undodgeable. Axe/laser attack has large range, short animation and are performed randomly. Tackle attack, the boss runs before the charge begins and this usually causes the charge happening at very close range. and is randomly performed.

Suggestion: make all his attacks dodgeable, whatever and whenever he uses. Reduce axe&laser attack damaging range, and FORCE THE TACKLE ATTACK ONLY START CHARGE ON MORE THAN 8 UNITS RANGE. If the tackle attack isn't tweaked further, the boss will still remain garbage.

↑ Is this TUNING.LUA DAYWALKER2_TACKLE_RANGE = 8? If devs wish players have enough range from the boss when charging happens, thay have failed in all stages 1, 2 and 3.

3. Too many tools: previously the boss gets 1 weapon every 20s, but now he gets 2 every 16 seconds. That's a 150% improvement. This means that even if players just tank his attacks, there's still no chance to break all his weapons before he could find another 2.

Suggestion: Stage 3 multiweild CD nerf to 20s or more.

Edited March 15 by Fufuji

[grm9]

4 minutes ago, Fufuji said:

1. Tackle dilemma: in stage 1&2 when he only has shoulder spike, he'll try soooo hard to use his attack that he will charge at very close range to avoid bumping onto Teetering Junk Pile, leaving players no chance to dodge. This is probably due to that he is not allowed to tackle when he and the player are in line with Teetering Junk Pile

go away from the big junk pile

5 minutes ago, Fufuji said:

2. Stage 3 attacks are performed completely randomly, there's no possibility to dodge all his attacks if players wish to kite and attack. In order to avoid taking damage, players must coward behind the fences and wait until his shoulder spike run out of durability. This makes the battle very stupid and greatly increases time cost

you can still hit it 4-5 times safely and easily after it charges once, then just run away from the cannon and break the halberd by running around the big junk pile/fences and hitting it 6-7 times after it attacks once

7 minutes ago, Fufuji said:

3. Too many tools: previously the boss gets 1 weapon every 20s, but now he gets 2 every 16 seconds. That's a 150% improvement. This means that even if players just tank his attacks, there's still no chance to break all his weapons before he could find another 2

then don't?

[Fufuji]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

go away from the big junk pile

leaves us least chance to attack

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

running around the big junk

this prevents tackle attack from casting in stage 3. so seems stupid in some ways.

6 minutes ago, grm9 said:

then don't

triplewield status leaves us least chance to attack

[grm9]

1 minute ago, Fufuji said:

leaves us least chance to attack

it doesn't change anything since you can still make it charge into fences

2 minutes ago, Fufuji said:

this prevents tackle attack from casting in stage 3. so seems stupid in some ways

break shoulder spike using fences first, then break the cannon, then run around the big junk pile/fences to break the halberd

2 minutes ago, Fufuji said:

triplewield status leaves us least chance to attack

deal with it then?

[Fufuji]

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

break shoulder spike using fences first, then break the cannon, then run around the big junk pile/fences to break the halberd

Thank you for your reply. I mean when sticking close with Teetering Junk Pile in stage 3, the boss will never use tackle attack. This seems to be AI flaws and makes the boss very easy to cope with.

 

10 minutes ago, grm9 said:

deal with it then?

It's too hard for a non-planar-boss battle even when cowarding behind the fences.

[Reecitz]

Most of the bosses in the game are non-planar; are there any that match this level of difficulty, or is this somehow harder than all of them?

[grm9]

8 minutes ago, Fufuji said:

I mean when sticking close with Teetering Junk Pile in stage 3, the boss will never use tackle attack. This seems to be AI flaws and makes the boss very easy to cope with

that was probably added because previously you could constantly make it ram into the junk to have no chance to break all fences/junk before the fight ends

Edited March 15 by grm9

[chaosmonkey]

I think the laser and mace attacks feel fine and are easy to dodge. The charge however has a really short telegraph which generally doesn't leave enough time to react unless you have some speed boost. It would make sense if the charge was used mostly as a "close the distance to the player" attack rather than starting from short range. Alternatively if it's to remain a short range attack, increasing the time of the telegraph by even something small like 300ms would feel much better.

[Reecitz]

2 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that was probably added because previously you could constantly make it ram into the junk 

So now, if all the fences are destroyed, you have an incentive to bait it into tossing junk at you to generate more obstacles for it to ram into, right?

[grm9]

2 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

I think the laser and mace attacks feel fine and are easy to dodge. The charge however has a really short telegraph which generally doesn't leave enough time to react unless you have some speed boost. It would make sense if the charge was used mostly as a "close the distance to the player" attack rather than starting from short range. Alternatively if it's to remain a short range attack, increasing the time of the telegraph by even something small like 300ms would feel much better

you're supposed to expect that it'll use it if it's too far to use other attacks instead of reacting to it 

[Fufuji]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

previously you could constantly make it ram into the junk

I wish especially the tackle attack could be tweaked further. Scrap Werepig, due to his random attacking pattern, is very exciting to fight with and combat experience varies every second. His outstanding design needs more work and tweaks on the details to finally achieve a nice battle. 

(Otherwise he'll probably become another CK)

[chaosmonkey]

4 minutes ago, grm9 said:

you're supposed to expect that it'll use it if it's too far to use other attacks instead of reacting to it 

Hmm, as I recall it was difficult to bait the charge because the range at which he will charge, leash to the junk pile, or do a mace attack are all very close together.

[grm9]

53 minutes ago, Fufuji said:

I wish especially the tackle attack could be tweaked further. Scrap Werepig, due to his random attacking pattern, is very exciting to fight with and combat experience varies every second. His outstanding design needs more work and tweaks on the details to finally achieve a nice battle. 

(Otherwise he'll probably become another CK)

it isn't remotely similar to CK and it's mostly boring, the only hard part is figuring out how it's attack queuing works

52 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

Hmm, as I recall it was difficult to bait the charge because the range at which he will charge, leash to the junk pile, or do a mace attack are all very close together.

nah it'll only run to the pile if you exit the arena or it wants to get another weapon which doesn't depend on it's distance to you and charge has a 2 tile range while melee has 1 tile range 

Edited March 15 by grm9

[Reecitz]

I don't know what the Scrappy Chapaldron does, if anything at all, but what if wearing it made the fight easier somehow, like granting a speed boost to dodge better or providing knockback resistance? You obtain it during the fight already, so you could be encouraged to use it in the fight as well. 

I'm not saying this to dismiss any suggestions to tweak the fight itself; just thought it'd make the hat worth using in the fight if that's supposed to be its purpose. 

I also don't know how bad it'd make things in the long run if it was given a speed bonus, because then it'd be the first hat item in the game with speed, but who knows?

[chaosmonkey]

3 minutes ago, grm9 said:

nah it'll only run to the pile if you exit the arena or it wants to get another weapon which doesn't depend on it's distance to you and charging has the most range out of all attacks that it can do while the halberd only has a 1 tile range

I'll have to try this next time I'm playing. In any case, I think there has been a theme of feedback that the boss feels a bit off / unintuitive, and I hope Klei considers that feedback.

[grm9]

3 minutes ago, chaosmonkey said:

I think there has been a theme of feedback that the boss feels unintuitive

that's a good thing, a boss being easy to kill 1st try without having to learn and experiment is bad

Edited March 15 by grm9

[Fufuji]

I've forgotten one more problem.

His attack period randomly changes between 3~4 seconds, this is extremely stupid and frustrating as he may suddenly give you a rapid strike or wait a relatively long time not attacking. And is completely unpredictable.

I can't figure out why this mechanic is designed. This doesn't bring about variety, only meaningless danger for players.

Edited March 15 by Fufuji

[chaosmonkey]

9 minutes ago, grm9 said:

that's a good thing, a boss being easy to kill 1st try without having to learn and experiment is bad

I agree with that, but for me and a few people I know, this one isn't clicking after several kills. Feel free to call it a skill problem, but I think when this becomes a theme among players that it's indicative of an issue.

[IAmAFurrz]

idk about the laser attack from him getting it after rift is open, but just started a world to play and test the fight out, its pretty fun idk what you mean for now (ill see if this positive opinion stays for the boss with laser)

[Jakepeng99]

Is its attacks directional? I have never experienced it in testing. If it is not directional, it should be.

[Fufuji]

8 hours ago, Jakepeng99 said:

Is its attacks directional? I have never experienced it in testing. If it is not directional, it should be.

not directional

[Jakepeng99]

3 hours ago, Fufuji said:

not directional

Kinda inconsistent.