Endless gas and liquid storage rooms

[Fesko04]

Good afternoon. Experienced players have already noticed such a bug in the game - the endless compression of gases and liquids. I suggest making the same pressure restriction as for liquids on the cell walls. For example, when 150 kg/cell of gas is pumped into a room, walls begin to break, as well as locks (or let the forced opening of locks work). This will add additional interest to the game and now it will be impossible to create 2x2 rooms with infinite pressure.

Such a bug violates the mechanics of survival, when instead of tanks (150 kg or 10 kg / cage) with gas, you can build a very small room with an infinite supply. But it is worth using a closed gas storage facility, because it is more difficult. As a game designer, I made a limit of 180 kg/cell, because in real life the pressure in gas storage facilities is no more than that. 180 kg per cm2.

Sorry for my English(:/

[Dewred]

Liquid pressure does not break walls if they are 3 or more tiles thick. If this rule was removed it could easily cause massive cascading damage to both player builds and natural tiles as in some cases overpressure can't be avoided. It is simply fact that "infinite storage" is intentional, unavoidable, and not a bug.

It is entirely possible to use, doorcrush, or vent to space all excess gases, but I wouldn't consider this a benefit to gameplay. Infinite storages are not infinite supply. Even if most resources are plentiful and also renewable.

[SpomJ]

Yeah, the infinite storage itself is quite unavoidable. From dev perspective it would anly be viable to either remove the excess gas (which would be more gamebreaking IMO), or as you said, try breaking solids.

In that case, pressure mechanics should get reworked more than just a simple tile breaking. You see, ideally you'd like to calculate the difference between the pressure on wall sides, then apply breaking logic. But suppose a tiny droplet of co2 fell on top of your storage. If gas pressure inside is ~10^6 g and the droplet of co2 10^2 g, even though usual pressure outside is quite high the wall still would break.,

Then it would require reworking gases. I've seen the composition element in the in-game database (Index > Elements > Other > Composition), so maybe there's something going on; but as for now it's too early to do this IMO.

кста зачем такое сложное хранилище можно же намного легче деать

Also what's funny to me that even with liquids, liquid storage is 3x2=6 tiles, holding 5000kg inside, so just pouring water in a container would be more compact

[Fesko04]

5 hours ago, SpomJ said:

Yeah, the infinite storage itself is quite unavoidable. From dev perspective it would anly be viable to either remove the excess gas (which would be more gamebreaking IMO), or as you said, try breaking solids.

In that case, pressure mechanics should get reworked more than just a simple tile breaking. You see, ideally you'd like to calculate the difference between the pressure on wall sides, then apply breaking logic. But suppose a tiny droplet of co2 fell on top of your storage. If gas pressure inside is ~10^6 g and the droplet of co2 10^2 g, even though usual pressure outside is quite high the wall still would break.,

Then it would require reworking gases. I've seen the composition element in the in-game database (Index > Elements > Other > Composition), so maybe there's something going on; but as for now it's too early to do this IMO.

кста зачем такое сложное хранилище можно же намного легче деать

Also what's funny to me that even with liquids, liquid storage is 3x2=6 tiles, holding 5000kg inside, so just pouring water in a container would be more compact

From a technical point of view, I don't quite understand how the logic works there, I just shared the idea that you can create storage facilities with an infinite supply of gas and I wanted to balance it out. Is it possible to do this as in pipes? shut off the gas supply at high pressure (like overloading a geyser, for example)?
P.S. I know about another storage facility, but with doors it's more realistic) I love mechanisms). Thx)

[SpomJ]

1 hour ago, Fesko04 said:

Is it possible to do this as in pipes?

This would work until solids are introduced. Suppose you have an open airlock and a closed room at max pressure. Now think about what should happen when you close that airlock. Deleting the gas would be quite bad, especially 100kg of it; on either sides of it would be max pressure, so relocating it there would break that logic. The only option left is to disallow closing the airlock, which, you know, makes airlocks quite janky in use. And even if you disallow it, there's too many things that could go wrong: simply emptying a bottle would still cause utter chaos.

There are more ways to exploit the game than to fix the exploits

[Henlikuoth]

7 hours ago, SpomJ said:

Deleting the gas would be quite bad

Not for me, I would prefer that. That's better than having trillions of tons of gas (or fluid) in a small chamber eventually. 

7 hours ago, SpomJ said:

There are more ways to exploit the game than to fix the exploits

It's better to fix exploits or balance the game in reasonable ways determined by the developers. 

[Greywanderer]

Removing infinite gas compression is really not a difficult problem to tackle technically. Make doors unable to close if any of their current tiles contain more than a threshold pressure. Consider gas emitters to be submerged if any amount of liquid is occupying the emission tile. I'm pretty sure those 2 changes would break all of the gas overpressure exploits without greatly affecting most other builds. This would also eliminate fluid deletion using automated doors.

Only slightly more complicated would be still allowing a small bead of liquid over a gas emitter such as vents but checking nearby tiles for gas overpressure before allowing the emission. 

They'll never do it, but I'd even love to see a change that would allow gas pressure to displace liquid. 

[SpomJ]

7 hours ago, Greywanderer said:

Make doors unable to close if any of their current tiles contain more than a threshold pressure

Yes, but you'd hardly thank the devs when an airlock that's supposed to close doesn't.

[Greywanderer]

6 hours ago, SpomJ said:

Yes, but you'd hardly thank the devs when an airlock that's supposed to close doesn't.

It would only happen to doors being used for compression. There's no situation without use of exploits where gas concentration should be higher than 30-40 kg per tile, so they could safely set the threshold at 50 or even 100 kg so that the only builds being affected are those using the current exploits for compression or deletion.

[Dewred]

On 2/6/2024 at 6:34 PM, Henlikuoth said:

That's better than having trillions of tons of gas (or fluid) in a small chamber eventually. 

Having trillions of tons of anything is the result of liquid duplication bugs (which should be fixed to not happen unintentionally). Any significant, legitimate amount of fluid in an infinite storage almost certainly comes from a renewable source and significant play time investment. I don't see why hoarding this is a problem, as it effectively means a player doesn't need those resources anyway.

19 hours ago, Greywanderer said:

 I'm pretty sure those 2 changes would break all of the gas overpressure exploits without greatly affecting most other builds.

I believe bead pumps would still allow for gas compression. Changing those would have a significant effect on other builds.

[SpomJ]

7 hours ago, Greywanderer said:

It would only happen to doors being used for compression. There's no situation without use of exploits where gas concentration should be higher than 30-40 kg per tile, so they could safely set the threshold at 50 or even 100 kg so that the only builds being affected are those using the current exploits for compression or deletion.

how about liquid-to-gas conversion? If under normal pressure liquid density is 1000kg/tile, what would you do when it turns into gas? Also i'm pretty sure this is an example of non-exploited high pressures

[Knurek]

And how is ONI Police going to stop me from freezing all these infinitely pressurized gasses and liquids into debris and storing the entire map in a single tile?

Edit: Yes I know some elements the player is not able to freeze.

Edited February 9 by Knurek

[SpomJ]

34 minutes ago, Knurek said:

And how is ONI Police going to stop me from freezing all these infinitely pressurized gasses and liquids into debris and storing the entire map in a single tile?

*pulls out 70 tons of 5K solid hydrogen out of his back pocket*

like, don't get me wrong, this is a good idea, it just doesn't fit into what the game currently goes for. And unless liquid/gas mechanics were reworked entirely (which i actually want, i remember i wrote about layer-based liquid & gas management system, but i can't find it anymore as well as my old account), the hard limitation doesn't make any sense.

[Greywanderer]

14 hours ago, SpomJ said:

how about liquid-to-gas conversion? If under normal pressure liquid density is 1000kg/tile, what would you do when it turns into gas? Also i'm pretty sure this is an example of non-exploited high pressures

That's a great point. I don't think all methods of extreme compression should be eliminated. In fact, I'd be happy if only half submerged emitters were fixed. 

The opinion I see a lot about this is 'if you think it's an exploit, don't use it. It's a single player game" but then nearly all tutorials and instruction videos use the exploit. However, when players are using an exploit, that also affects what feedback Klei and the forum gets from the playerbase, indirectly affecting balancing, dev priority, and mod development.

I'm still a pretty new player with only 100 hours or so. It might feel different for those who have been with the game through its development, but it's really disheartening from my perspective to research the best way deal with a game mechanic and find that most guides tell you how to play around it with an exploit rather than how to play through it. I would love to see all the ways people come up with to store gases and liquids that do not involve the exploit. Eg. Cooling gases to liquid or solid seems totally legit to me. It requires late game research and materials, and you have to come up with a way to keep them cool during storage, but still be able to thaw, evaporate, and sublimate to use them as gases. That seems fun, challenging, and mirrors the real world as much as anything in the game.

[Knurek]

Build a giant fully automated base for more than a hundred of dupes with hundreds of plants and critters and when your fps drops down to a single digit maybe you'll understand that at some point it doesn't make sense to waste system performance to run pipes across the entire map to vent gas instead of deleting it at the source. Same as it doesn't make sense to build an array of reservoirs connected with pipes instead of a small room with unlimited storage.

[Zarquan]

On 2/7/2024 at 11:53 PM, Greywanderer said:

Removing infinite gas compression is really not a difficult problem to tackle technically. Make doors unable to close if any of their current tiles contain more than a threshold pressure. Consider gas emitters to be submerged if any amount of liquid is occupying the emission tile

These changes don't prevent bead pumps or bypass pumps, both of which can work passively without any tricked vents or doors.