Insight system improvements

[Mortalbane]

In continuation of my other post about the Insight system and its downsides, i'd like to compile the suggested solutions and ways to improve the system, while also maintaining the upsides.
 

1. Getting all the points takes too long

Solution A - reduce the time needed to get all the skill points to 70 days (the in-game year) from the current 160 days.

Solution B - reduce the number of skill points that you acquire from the current 15 to 10, and let some perks be acquired via other methods (more on that below).


2. Unlocking points simply with time feels boring

Solution - introduce other methods of getting perks. For example:

• affinity quests for Charlie and Wagstaff
• exploration (discovering a new biome)
• killing a boss for the first time

3. Several issues at once:

• Progression balancing problems (because of the current way of progress saving, high-tier skill at the end of the branch can also be your starting skill)
• One-time feature (once you unlock all the points, you forget about working towards the skill and watching your character grow)
• Gap between players (player who has all the skill points has a clear advantage over a player who plays the character for the first time)

Solution - remove skill point saving between worlds. To balance this, perks gained from achievements and other ways can still be saved between worlds.

• you will know for sure that this skill can be a starting one only, and to get that skill you will have to work towards it, and balance their power accordingly
• players can test a different path in the early game, and have skill point rewards to await
• players will start more equal on a fresh server
   
• (bonus) reduces the abuse of character switching

If you have anything to add, or you disagree, please feel free to express your opinion in the comments.

 

[iMester_GG]

i thought of the same points that you mentioned and i think that your solution is perfect for the game especially by remove skill point saving between worlds

this will fix a lot of problems that you mentioned and will make starting new servers feels fresh every time 

and i think that all the unique perks that require something to unlock should switch to a challenge that if you completed the challenge you will have this unique perk unlock like the lunar and shadow perks 

for example: the last perk in woodies weremoose should require you to kill any boss sized mob once to unlock the last weremoose perk

instead of just unlock 8 more perks to unlock this strong perk (this is boring and bad for the game ) just imagine every time and i mean *EVERY TIME* you start a new server from now on you need to wait god knows how long to unlock the good perks 

this is just bad and i wish that they will fix this issue by just adding a new ways to get skill point and a new ways to unlock the locked perks

and if they did find a good solution to this problem this will be amazing because if you started a new server as soon as you spawn you will have a few side missions to do if you want the good perks and that means more thing to do in our playthrous

and that is fun in my opinion  

[Ulisesvolador]

6 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

players will feel more equal

I thought players wanted to feel more special with the different skill tree options.

6 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

(bonus) reduces the abuse of character switching

I don't think this will solve anything of that.

I more or less agree with the rest of your suggestions.

[Mortalbane]

5 minutes ago, Ulisesvolador said:

I thought players wanted to feel more special with the different skill tree options.

I mean they will start equal. I have rephrased that sentence in the post too

[Ulisesvolador]

15 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

I mean they will start equal. I have rephrased that sentence in the post too

I get it now, but the question is: skill trees really provide an unfair advantage?

[Mortalbane]

14 minutes ago, Ulisesvolador said:

I get it now, but the question is: skill trees really provide an unfair advantage?

Well, if on a fresh server there are two Woodies, and player A can craft walking canes and summon tree guards, while player B can't yet, is it good?

[iMester_GG]

40 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

is it good?

it's not good 

in fact: it's gonna make new players hate there time in the server until they survive 160 days 

and that's not fun.

[Ulisesvolador]

Just now, Mortalbane said:

Well, if on a fresh server there are two Woodies, and player A can craft walking canes and summon tree guards, while player B can't yet, is it good?

I think that the unfairness with Woodie (excluding the walking stick) comes from the fact that new players will still need to play with a "bad" Woodie.

The other skill trees only add small things that don't make much difference.

[Mortalbane]

5 hours ago, Ulisesvolador said:

I think that the unfairness with Woodie (excluding the walking stick) comes from the fact that new players will still need to play with a "bad" Woodie.

The other skill trees only add small things that don't make much difference.

So, there is unfairness. Woodie is just an example.

That's why I think it would be better if skill points were not saved between worlds, at least not all points.

[Wonz]

14 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Unlocking points simply with time feels boring

That's why this below doesn't exist. Almost no one wants to do that more than once.  

 

14 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

remove skill point saving between worlds.

14 hours ago, Mortalbane said:

Gap between players (player who has all the skill points has a clear advantage over a player who plays the character for the first time)

If that's any problem then gap will exist for people who join late. Discouraging players to join at any other point than beginning and late joiners are already in terrible spot.

 

[Mortalbane]

3 minutes ago, Wonz said:

That's why this below doesn't exist. Almost no one wants to do that more than once.  

 

If that's any problem then gap will exist for people who join late. Discouraging players to join at any other point than beginning. 

 

True, no one wants to do it more than once. But why? Because it's long and boring, which I'd like to be changed.

Discouraging from joining late? I don't know about you, but I always filter current season for autumn, because I want to join fresh servers, not spawn naked in winter or summer and ask people to give me food and clothes. Not to mention that I missed some fun already by joining too late

[Wonz]

39 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Discouraging from joining late? I don't know about you, but I always filter current season for autumn, because I want to join fresh servers, not spawn naked in winter or summer and ask people to give me food and clothes. Not to mention that I missed some fun already by joining too la

I'm saying that's extra reason to not join on top of season. On top of that for someone with wormwood's insulation summer perk it could be not that bad.

[Ulisesvolador]

1 hour ago, Mortalbane said:

not spawn naked in winter or summer and ask people to give me food and clothes.

The "Seasonal Starting Items" option exists because of that reason.

[DVGMedia]

this kind of makes me think a bit more of terraria progression. Like how in terraria you have seperate worlds and seperate characters you can choose.
you can enter a world with a character that has all these items unlocked already.
or you can enter a world with a new character and have zero items. and need to get that grind back.

However Don't starve is not terraria.  There really is not a progression system in place other than just the science and magic teirs.
I feel the descrepancy of progression in skill trees won't happen like in terraria where a new player enters a late game world.

I can see how some people may like to build up their skills beyond just time. The way characters have progression in game is usually by crafting and building with what exists.

The easiest one to see is like with maxwells duelists. and how much extra damage they get from magic items.

Some may say wigfrids songs count since have to explore the world and collect supplies to get that progression.

Its interesting to try and figure this out Because they are completely separate forms of progression.

[Mortalbane]

1 minute ago, Ulisesvolador said:

The "Seasonal Starting Items" option exists because of that reason.

IF they are enabled =)

 

2 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

I can see how some people may like to build up their skills beyond just time. The way characters have progression in game is usually by crafting and building with what exists.

The easiest one to see is like with maxwells duelists. and how much extra damage they get from magic items.

Some may say wigfrids songs count since have to explore the world and collect supplies to get that progression.

Its interesting to try and figure this out Because they are completely separate forms of progression.

I'd love to see progression without skill trees myself, like Maxwell, or Wigfrid, or Walter.
But Klei decided to take skill trees path, so i'm only trying to express my thoughts and help improve the system they came up with.

[Ulisesvolador]

13 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

IF they are enabled =)

They are enabled by default.

[Dr. Safety]

I don't mind how they are now. Across multiple worlds, the 160 days required isn't all that long, especially considering the skills aren't super powerful, they are just fun. A woodie with 0 insight is gonna be worse than a woodie with 15, but not because the latter has super OP perks, but because the 0 insight is new to Woodie. No perks will help that.

I'd rather have the ability to spawn in with fun stuff than have to wait until it might not be worth using to even unlock it. New players can work to that goal as well. 

[Mortalbane]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

I don't mind how they are now. Across multiple worlds, the 160 days required isn't all that long, especially considering the skills aren't super powerful, they are just fun. A woodie with 0 insight is gonna be worse than a woodie with 15, but not because the latter has super OP perks, but because the 0 insight is new to Woodie. No perks will help that.

I'd rather have the ability to spawn in with fun stuff than have to wait until it might not be worth using to even unlock it. New players can work to that goal as well. 

Yeah, if the goal is a rogue-like progression across multiple worlds, then 160 days is fine. But i don't like that approach, i like skill trees for what they usually are.
Aren't powerful and are just fun? Well, i don't see how crafting a cane, crafting monkeytails, resetting bramble traps, summoning treeguards, having +30% damage, and so on is a pure fun, and that player that doesn't have it feels bad compared to the other player on the same server. Eventually we will all get there, yes, but why make that gap in the first place. Not to mention that this gap is only a part of the problems that are mentioned above.
Also, Woodie with 0 insight doesn't mean that the player is not experienced.

[Dr. Safety]

46 minutes ago, Mortalbane said:

Yeah, if the goal is a rogue-like progression across multiple worlds, then 160 days is fine. But i don't like that approach, i like skill trees for what they usually are.
Aren't powerful and are just fun? Well, i don't see how crafting a cane, crafting monkeytails, resetting bramble traps, summoning treeguards, having +30% damage, and so on is a pure fun, and that player that doesn't have it feels bad compared to the other player on the same server. Eventually we will all get there, yes, but why make that gap in the first place. Not to mention that this gap is only a part of the problems that are mentioned above.
Also, Woodie with 0 insight doesn't mean that the player is not experienced.

The treeguard thing is abused, and I wouldn't be surprised if they tweak it so that the treeguards will always aggro Woodie. The walking cane perk would become useless by the time you could unlock it. The bramble trap thing is fine since you still have to craft all the bramble traps. The monkey tail thing is the same way. Yeah you have the ability to do it day 1, but you're still held back by resources needed to craft it.

Unless they drastically change the power of the perks, it's absolutely fine as is. 

[Mortalbane]

29 minutes ago, Dr. Safety said:

The treeguard thing is abused, and I wouldn't be surprised if they tweak it so that the treeguards will always aggro Woodie. The walking cane perk would become useless by the time you could unlock it. The bramble trap thing is fine since you still have to craft all the bramble traps. The monkey tail thing is the same way. Yeah you have the ability to do it day 1, but you're still held back by resources needed to craft it.

Unless they drastically change the power of the perks, it's absolutely fine as is. 

The issue is not how strong they are, but the "we are on a fresh server, why he has smth and i don't", which can totally be avoided with a system rework.
About the resource limitations, people can kill the Fuelweaver on day 2, but they can't get all the perks on day 2. One player has them, the other doesn't. That is the whole point.