a compromise [wilson rework feedback]

[thornythylacine]

hi! i'm not sure if i'm allowed to give feedback as i'm not a beta tester, but i have been keeping up with the beta and various hotfixes, as well as seeing what other people are saying about it. i figured i'd add my two cents! it's a little wordy, but the main point is bolded for your convenience lol

i don't really mind the idea of the skill tree because it seems like a nice compromise for people who still want wilson as sort of a "base" character and I feel like it's symbolic of his journey as a character, but i've seen many others make good points about how it diminishes replay value (as soon as you've collected and spent all insight points, there's not really much more to it afterwards--plus many will find a way to just cheat the points via timeskips, most will only invest points in the "optimal" categories and not change them around for different benefits, etc), and it's not exactly beginner friendly. in considering alternatives, i definitely like the idea of the alchemy stuff to be available right off the bat (as in part of wilson's base skills as soon as you enter the game), as even some of the basic stuff could be pretty helpful during early game! maybe a good compromise would be starting with certain basic skills like what's seen on the skill tree and gaining insight points through certain in-game milestones that can be redeemed at a science station, kind of reminiscent of the old knowledge points system there was when it was just wilson! I feel like that'd be a really nice full circle deal that can't really be cheated, has replay value, but also has incentive right off the bat, and actually allows for full completion and player choice. I'm actually surprised I came up with that, klei hire me LOL /j 

if any of the above paragraph comes off as confusing or out of context, it was originally a comment i posted on this video that i copied and edited for the forum here, so if i forgot to clarify anything that would have been understood from the video, please let me know!

[Yuuko]

1 hour ago, thornythylacine said:

if any of the above paragraph comes off as confusing or out of context, it was originally a comment i posted on this video that i copied and edited for the forum here, so if i forgot to clarify anything that would have been understood from the video, please let me know!

Wow, Beard has some absolute trash takes.  Lets go by the numbers:

1) 160 days CHEAT IT AND YOU'RE DONE.  Who cares?  You get to the limit one way or another, its not like this is some great oversight.  WHO CARES if you cheat it?  Like really, what does it matter?  Nothing.  No one is going to be jealous b/c you cheat 160 days time skip and what, go join pubs within the first 21 hours and have 15 insight points?

This is an absolutely vapid complaint.  You know what people did when DS was released and they only had Wilson but wanted to play a different character?  They cheated enough days to unlock them all.

OMG YOU CAN CH EAT 160 DAYS TO HAVE WILDON REWORK DAY 1!!!! DAY 1 REWORK COMPLETE HERE!!!!

Zero effort needs to be put into avoiding a player entering a few console commands.  It only takes 20-some hours of play to max it without commands, its really not a big deal.

2) Doesn't represent Wilson as a failed scientist.  Well doesn't it though?  He can not complete the entire skill tree.  Unlike every other character this Wilson is the only one who is never able to have their full kit at once.  imo the forced non-completion of his kit fits the theme of a failed scientist well enough.

3) Sat in nightmare throne - faced Charlie - literally every character in the game did.  Wilson is not Maxwell or Wickerbottom, who have good reason to be very powerful characters with many perks.  Wilson has always been vanilla.  There was zero reason to anticipate that changing at this point.

4) ToRcH tReE bAd - okay where are you going to spend your points?  You can swap your points all you want.  If you're not grinding mountains of purple gems into orange => yellow => green, then why park your points here?  imo you can easily build Wilson 2 ways.  As a swap/crafter who has the full transmutation kit, or as a player with the beard and torch perks with plenty of points for a few choice transmutation treats.

I don't get the hate on torches tree.  Max brightness perk is the same as a lantern at 80% fuel, and brighter than one sub 50%.  I have chests full of twigs and grass from just 1 year on.  I think a lot of people keep some grass and twigs in their inventory anyway.

I do think torch duration could be a bit better - enough that 1 torch can last through the duration of the longest night of the year.  Right now its a bit short.

5) Everyone is going to go straight down the center tree to rush an iridescent gem - why?  They aren't hard to make.  If you really want iridescent gems you get 2 in the archives at worldgen FREE.  If you need more you could hit up Wicker's books and transmute 1 yellow to 1 iridescent every night.  This is such a fake a f complaint.

Beard isn't a bad content creator, and he certainly doesn't have to like every thing Klei does - but is video is a lot of hot air.

[thornythylacine]

16 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Wow, Beard has some absolute trash takes.  Lets go by the numbers:

1) 160 days CHEAT IT AND YOU'RE DONE.  Who cares?  You get to the limit one way or another, its not like this is some great oversight.  WHO CARES if you cheat it?  Like really, what does it matter?  Nothing.  No one is going to be jealous b/c you cheat 160 days time skip and what, go join pubs within the first 21 hours and have 15 insight points?

This is an absolutely vapid complaint.  You know what people did when DS was released and they only had Wilson but wanted to play a different character?  They cheated enough days to unlock them all.

OMG YOU CAN CH EAT 160 DAYS TO HAVE WILDON REWORK DAY 1!!!! DAY 1 REWORK COMPLETE HERE!!!!

Zero effort needs to be put into avoiding a player entering a few console commands.  It only takes 20-some hours of play to max it without commands, its really not a big deal.

2) Doesn't represent Wilson as a failed scientist.  Well doesn't it though?  He can not complete the entire skill tree.  Unlike every other character this Wilson is the only one who is never able to have their full kit at once.  imo the forced non-completion of his kit fits the theme of a failed scientist well enough.

3) Sat in nightmare throne - faced Charlie - literally every character in the game did.  Wilson is not Maxwell or Wickerbottom, who have good reason to be very powerful characters with many perks.  Wilson has always been vanilla.  There was zero reason to anticipate that changing at this point.

4) ToRcH tReE bAd - okay where are you going to spend your points?  You can swap your points all you want.  If you're not grinding mountains of purple gems into orange => yellow => green, then why park your points here?  imo you can easily build Wilson 2 ways.  As a swap/crafter who has the full transmutation kit, or as a player with the beard and torch perks with plenty of points for a few choice transmutation treats.

I don't get the hate on torches tree.  Max brightness perk is the same as a lantern at 80% fuel, and brighter than one sub 50%.  I have chests full of twigs and grass from just 1 year on.  I think a lot of people keep some grass and twigs in their inventory anyway.

5) Everyone is going to go straight down the center tree to rush an iridescent gem - why?  They aren't hard to make.  If you really want iridescent gems rather than swapping to Wilson you could hit up Wicker's books and transmute 1 yellow to 1 iridescent every night.  You get 2 at worldgen from archives.  This is such a fake a f complaint.

Beard isn't a bad content creator, and he certainly doesn't have to like every thing Klei does - but is video is a lot of hot air.

I don't necessarily agree with all of his takes either! I was kind of surprised how much he hated this rework, because like I said, I don't think it's all that bad. Seriously, the torch tree does not deserve all that hate !!

Also for the nightmare throne thing--I'm not entirely sure, but that might be something up to interpretation or not really elaborated on? Again, I could be wrong! But I believe it's based on the first new reign animation and the cyclum comic afterwards. Wilson goes to the nightmare throne, frees Maxwell, isn't even there very long (bc no beard growth) before Charlie comes and dethrones him, Maxwell and Wilson are transported back to the constant and Charlie throws everyone into one world. It's also pretty heavily implied in the whole drama/play stuff, that Charlie specifically followed him. It's just not quite as linear if other people came and sat after him--though it is technically something you can do in solo don't starve, I believe that's a more non canon or alternate canon scenario. in any case, it could also be more of a headcanon thing. i think it mostly just boils down to that he's the "main character" so to speak, and he's been through a lot, and beard wants to see credit where credit's due (admittedly, i do too!).

but i digress! yeah, his opinion of this rework is SUPER negative. not necessarily congruent with my own thoughts, but i could see some of the more logistical points he was making. i figured the insight/alchemy engine/knowledge points thing solved most of the issues seen with the skill tree, and made more sense as a full circle thing! this is what don't starve used to be, and wilson was the og. look how far we've come! as for the failed scientist part, i saw someone else suggest that he could have these experiments/innovations fail and blow up in his face, or succeed. the only issue with that is that it'd make redeeming insight points a gamble, and probably cause more frustration than anything. it's a double-edged sword!

[Yuuko]

13 minutes ago, thornythylacine said:

as for the failed scientist part, i saw someone else suggest that he could have these experiments/innovations fail and blow up in his face, or succeed. the only issue with that is that it'd make redeeming insight points a gamble, and probably cause more frustration than anything. it's a double-edged sword!

I thought about rng on transmutes too.  On the results end a chance of failure is the same as balancing him on a lost materials formula ie 2 reds for a blue, 2 blues for a red, is the same as 1:1 blue / red with 50% fail rate.  Its probably a trade off that loses some of the thematic impact but prevents the real frustrating possibility of hitting 20 fails in a row.  As Wilson is aimed as a new player friendly character I think this is an okay trade off.

[LanOrhan]

38 minutes ago, Shosuko said:

Doesn't represent Wilson as a failed scientist.  Well doesn't it though?  He can not complete the entire skill tree.  Unlike every other character this Wilson is the only one who is never able to have their full kit at once.  imo the forced non-completion of his kit fits the theme of a failed scientist well enough.

WX would like to have a word with you. Not all characters have their entire skill set at their disposal at once.

[Yuuko]

51 minutes ago, LanOrhan said:

WX would like to have a word with you. Not all characters have their entire skill set at their disposal at once.

True, you can't plug all his parts in at once.

If you could plug in all parts then it wouldn't feel like you're customizing your bot.  Similarly if you could have all Wilson perks unlocked at once you wouldn't feel like you're exploring options, you'd just have them all.  Even if there are obvious good / bad choices and an optimal build, the fact that you must choose which parts to omit from your kit is player expression.  Yeah I think in this case they have some overlap in how their themes are represented in game mechanics.

Good call, I did overlook that.

[Evelo]

7 hours ago, Shosuko said:

Beard isn't a bad content creator...

X

[sovon9]

I also have kind of mixed feelings. I am kind of full time Wilson player as I love the challenges without any special perk like other characters but then it's true that when one by one character reworks are going one how every character become more and more powerful I also felt the urge for Wilson to have something special. Though I know Wilson is a basic character but people still plays as Wilson. I don't think this skill tree is totally bad for Wilson neither I am totally agree with Beard on his beta review video but this time I also have a feeling that his rework missing something. some people saying as a basic character he should not have any powers which I am totally against. Klei needs to position him with other characters perfectly after their rework otherwise he will be gone and no one will play him except new players. Klei should keep some strong reasons to play as Wilson in some way.