Wolfgang is Too Weak - These Long-Unfixed Bugs Must Be the Devs' Compensation for Him!

[Bumber64]

11 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

I know that this post isn't really made to argue anything in good faith to begin with but I still want to address this part because people just seem to think like Wolfgang is the best character at the game when it comes to everything and I think that this is a really bad and wrong mindset. I'll address each argument separately.

[...]

The major issue is that the other characters have to invest resources to have what Wolfgang gets for free. E.g., Wurt gets powerful planar merms if she upgrades them, while Wolfgang gets free planar damage when using any planar weapon. Wortox's planar effect is restricted to certain equipment and uses up souls. Willow's burns through embers. You compare Wilson in a marble suit. This slows Wilson down!

Wolfgang just carries a dumbbell without using any durability to maintain his form. He's not even the only character with a sanity downside, and that's all he gets. It doesn't matter that other characters have ways to eventually catch up to him, because he got his initial lead through zero effort.

Edited August 7, 2025 by Bumber64

[Sacco]

7 hours ago, cybers2001 said:

Which part do you need me to clarify?

Splumokey speed is 7.  
Player base speed is 6.  
Player with cane is 7.5.

The difference between a cane and a dumbbell is the difference between whether you can run without getting swarmed.

I know you are among users who have notoriously given “advice” that you’ve never personally tried for yourself.

wear a magiluminescence.

[Gashzer]

8 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

Dude... I genuinely have no clue what you're on about.

Which just proves that max health DOES MATTER A LOT 

[Catuna_]

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

The major issue is that the other characters have to invest resources to have what Wolfgang gets for free.

Yes! That would be the point of the character... It's his only major selling point.

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Wurt gets powerful planar merms if she upgrades them

Wurt is a bad example considering that her shadow affinity passively gives her 2 lives on all her tamed merms which enables her to use much fewer merms than she otherwise would have to use. The mudslingers are also just a one-time craft that powers up your merms for you so it's really just a matter of killing werepig in the case of shadow wurt aswell. This is doable first autumn.

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Wolfgang gets free planar damage when using any planar weapon.

Wolfgang gets free planar damage because he is unfairly screwed over by planar entity defense. It's not a bonus, it's compensation to bring the 2x damage character back to his 2x damage. It is also not "any" planar weapon. It specifically only applies to melee, which robs Wolfgang out of a lot of otherwise powerful ranged options with the brightshade staff and gloomerang.

Wolfgang (planar perks up, no planar perks down) vs Wilson with brightshade sword (both no affinity). If Wolfgang is not using his planar perks, there is only a 30%/55.2% gap with planar/non planar enemies respectively. That is terrible for a character whose main benefit is double damage.

Mighty Wolfgang (planar perks don't matter here) vs Wilson with void cowl and 1 gloomerang. Both fire at max range. There is only a 27.2-27.8/48.3% difference. Neither have affinities.

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Wortox's planar effect is restricted to certain equipment and uses up souls. Willow's burns through embers.

Souls and embers are about as dirt cheap as dirt cheap gets. You also get 3 echoes per soul. You're comparing air to pocket lint. Wortox wasn't used in any comparison regarding DPS unless rifts equipment was considered for everyone. 

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

You compare Wilson in a marble suit. This slows Wilson down!

So...? It's mainly an armor for tanking or swapping to when you're about to get hit. Wolfgang being able to move at 1x speed is not game-breaking, you can achieve the same effect with night armor. I don't complaining about Wolfgang's little advantages, every character has these flavor/smaller perks. Nobody's complaining that Walter, Willow or Warly cook faster over a fire despite them being one of the best QoL features to have.

9 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

Wolfgang just carries a dumbbell without using any durability to maintain his form. He's not even the only character with a sanity downside, and that's all he gets. It doesn't matter that other characters have ways to eventually catch up to him, because he got his initial lead through zero effort.

Again, Wolfgang revolves around his damage as his only major selling point so it being readily available is fine. I have my gripes with the refreshed Wolfgang's design but there's really nothing wrong with a character being strong and eventually falling off later. Other characters do other things much better than him, and other characters eventually start catching up in damage. I also think that having a high damage option like Wolfgang is very healthy for solo players, who don't really wanna slog through bosses with 1x damage. In a co-op setting Wolfgang's damage is a lot less valuable in boss fights since you're already doing a lot more damage.

5 hours ago, Gashzer said:

Which just proves that max health DOES MATTER A LOT 

If you say so!

Edited August 7, 2025 by Catuna_

[Gashzer]

22 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

If you say so!

It's not me that says so, it's the maths but yes my logic is undeniable 

[SilverSpoon]

30 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

It's not me that says so, it's the maths but yes my logic is undeniable 

What are you so desperate for?

Even if maximum HP is high, the amount of heal and armor consumption doesn't change, so I think that it's not such big deal too.

Edited August 7, 2025 by SilverSpoon

[Bumber64]

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

Wolfgang gets free planar damage because he is unfairly screwed over by planar entity defense. It's not a bonus, it's compensation to bring the 2x damage character back to his 2x damage. It is also not "any" planar weapon. It specifically only applies to melee, which robs Wolfgang out of a lot of otherwise powerful ranged options with the brightshade staff and gloomerang.

"Unfairly screwed" by otherwise being only slightly better at melee than other characters in the late game? Imagine if he had to pick up the slack to remain relevant by that point. Instead it remains free.

I wasn't considering ranged combat, but go figure Wolfgang isn't better at it than Walter/Willow, and no worse than anyone else. He's not robbed of anything. "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

1 hour ago, Catuna_ said:

Souls and embers are about as dirt cheap as dirt cheap gets. You also get 3 echoes per soul. You're comparing air to pocket lint. Wortox wasn't used in any comparison regarding DPS unless rifts equipment was considered for everyone.

They take up slots, even if you're pretending you don't have to go out of your way to restock.

Edited August 7, 2025 by Bumber64

[Catuna_]

8 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

"Unfairly screwed" by otherwise being only slightly better at melee than other characters in the late game? Imagine if he had to pick up the slack to remain relevant by that point. Instead it remains free.

Yes...? He goes from his only major selling point being 2x damage to not... having one...? I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.

10 minutes ago, Bumber64 said:

I wasn't considering ranged combat, but go figure Wolfgang isn't better at it than Walter/Willow, and no worse than anyone else. He's not robbed of anything. "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

I expect a character to fulfill the niche they are supposed to fulfill...? "Privilege" implies that Wolfgang is the only one with combat perks, which I've already discussed is not true. By the time that rifts happen, most characters already achieved damage that is either close to Wolfgang with planar perks or far surpass him. I don't understand the hate obsession with the character.

[Bumber64]

21 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

Yes...? He goes from his only major selling point being 2x damage to not... having one...? I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.

I expect a character to fulfill the niche they are supposed to fulfill...? "Privilege" implies that Wolfgang is the only one with combat perks, which I've already discussed is not true. By the time that rifts happen, most characters already achieved damage that is either close to Wolfgang with planar perks or far surpass him. I don't understand the hate obsession with the character.

No, he of course keeps his free damage bonus, instead of losing it like Wigfrid does.

He's the only one with free combat perks, as I've already discussed. Anyone else tends to require a constant input of resources or a large upfront investment. If it actually cost him anything there wouldn't be an issue. If he struggled to maintain mightiness in boss fights (sanity drain) there wouldn't be an issue. Many options for balance.

In most games, characters that are strong in early game tend to fall off late game. Instead, we ended up in a situation where he remains very powerful and everyone else just had to power creep because they live in the same world with him. (Except Wilson, of course. He gets a bad tree anyway.)

Edited August 7, 2025 by Bumber64

[Gashzer]

54 minutes ago, SilverSpoon said:

If you say so.

Even if maximum HP is high, the amount of heal and armor consumption doesn't change, so I think that it's not such big deal too.

Yeah the amount of heal doesn't change but the how you need to heal can completely change.

I'll take 2 extremes. Maxwell has 75hp, Wx with 3 super hardy circuits has a whopping 575hp.

Football helmets are dirt cheap armour so both characters have pretty much infinite access to them

• Maxwell: 75hp ÷ 0.2 (80% football helm armour) has an effective health of 375hp.
• Wx78: 575hp ÷ 0.2 is an effective health of 2,875hp.

If both characters fight dragonfly like a Wilson using the wall cheese strat. Dragonfly does 75hp damage.

• Maxwell can take 4 hits from dragonfly and dying on the 5th hit. So he needs to heal after 4 hits, therefore needs to prep healing items to bring to the fight.
• Wx78 can take a whopping 38 hits from dragonfly and dying to the 39th hit.

Are you telling me the fight is going to be the same for these 2 characters?? No way is it. You have to babysit maxwells health the entire time while with Wx78 you don't even need to bring healing only armour.

Meaning a wx78 can use the vastly cheaper method of sleeping in a siesta while maxwell needs to cook 14 pierogi to match the total hp of Wx78, which means Maxwell needs to make crockpots, needs to gather the ingredients to cook the pierogis then needs to wait until they cook, and worry about food rotting. While a Wx78 can eat cooked monster meat or cooked berries or any other cheap brainless food then sleep.

The lies/illogical statements these speedrunners spread needs to stop. Or the community needs to stop parroting these illogical ideas without thinking for themselves.

Edited August 7, 2025 by Gashzer

[Catuna_]

58 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Are you telling me the fight is going to be the same for these 2 characters?? No way is it. You have to babysit maxwells health the entire time while with Wx78 you don't even need to bring healing only armour.

You heard it here folks, right clicking healing item is hard enough to apparently alter the course of the Dragonfly fight.

58 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

Meaning a wx78 can use the vastly cheaper method of sleeping in a siesta while maxwell needs to cook 14 pierogi to match the total hp of Wx78, which means Maxwell needs to make crockpots, needs to gather the ingredients to cook the pierogis then needs to wait until they cook, and worry about food rotting. While a Wx78 can eat cooked monster meat or cooked berries or any other cheap brainless food then sleep.

Blue caps are an item in this game... It's the most readily available healing option in the game btw. And let's ignore that WX has to scan a nurse spider for super hearty circuits in this scenario meaning that they would have to either get lucky or wait for a T3 spider den and then would have to wait for their charge to go all the way back up because accounting for both character's prep times would make your argument look worse.

58 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

The lies/illogical statements these speedrunners spread needs to stop. Or the community needs to stop parroting these illogical ideas without thinking for themselves.

I don't even speedrun or watch speedruns. All my opinions are based off of my playthroughs, testing and calculations and numbers. I've noticed absolutely 0 troubles or time sinks when it comes to my health as any character and I've played every character in the DST cast. Speedrunning has nothing to do with this.

1 hour ago, Bumber64 said:

He's the only one with free combat perks, as I've already discussed. Anyone else tends to require a constant input of resources or a large upfront investment. If it actually cost him anything there wouldn't be an issue. If he struggled to maintain mightiness in boss fights (sanity drain) there wouldn't be an issue. Many options for balance.

There's literally no issue with this, I genuinely do not know why you're making a big deal out of this for Wolfgang specifically.
Many characters get free or almost free combat perks and nobody bats an eye. Couple examples:

• Wigfrid gets a constant +25% damage, lifesteal and sanity regen from fighting and -25% damage taken.
• Woodie, for the cost of 3 monster meat and 2 grass, gets 90% damage reduction, hitstun immunity while building up his combo, passive regen and aoe in the form of his dash and slam WITH the bone helm effect invalidating sanity management.
• Willow walks into a killer bee biome and spends 60 seconds there and she gets enough embers to last her a lifetime, giving her +25% damage on burning targets, 750 total aoe damage (or 750 single target burst damage),  ability to summon starcaller stars and stack them ontop of eachother for sanity regeneration, or set all mobs around her on fire to recycle any embers she would've wise lost. Spawns with Bernie which kills nightmares for her while she's AFK and regenerates health. 

The modern DST roster is very powerful for little cost, if any at all. Singling out Wolfgang is so weird to me. So what if he has "free 2x damage"? That's what his character is built around. 

Edited August 7, 2025 by Catuna_

[Gashzer]

20 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

You heard it here folks, right clicking healing item is hard enough to apparently alter the course of the Dragonfly fight.

You heard it here folks, elitism at its finest, with the inability to empathise with lesser skilled players. 

20 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

Blue caps are an item in this game... It's the most readily available healing option in the game btw. And let's ignore that WX has to scan a nurse spider for super hearty circuits in this scenario meaning that they would have to either get lucky or wait for a T3 spider den and then would have to wait for their charge to go all the way back up because accounting for both character's prep times would make your argument look worse.

Using wx78 with hardy circuits was just to emphasise the effect a greater max HP can have on the structure of a fight. Which it does. Hence proving your statement of  "max hp DOESN'T MATTER" completely and utterly wrong 

Obviously characters like wolfgang who start the game having 200hp, is enough of a max hp difference from the likes of maxwell or old wanda to effect the structure and prep work for boss fights. 

Edited August 7, 2025 by Gashzer

[Catuna_]

6 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

You heard it here folks, elitism at its finest, with the inability to empathise with lesser skilled players. 

Players who are so bad that they have trouble healing with a healing item in their hotbar during the dragonfly fight are not going to be fighting dragonfly. They would be new players having trouble grasping the game in general. Quit shielding yourself with inexperienced players for your arguments. New players have NO reason to be this unprepared for a fight to just bring football helmets anyway since they're not gonna be good at kiting Dragonfly.

Maxwell has no reason to be wearing a football helmet instead of the higher damage reduction armors which he wants to go for anyway for his damage. Maxwell is also able to have his duelists attack for him and not participate in the fight at all thus taking 0 damage and he wouldn't even be losing sanity from anything because of his sanity regen. You're cherrypicking one specific example that isn't even good. If Wanda can make-do with playing with 37.5 hp just fine then you can play with 75, 125, 130, 150, 175, 200, 250 or 575.

Quit arguing in bad faith, man.

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

I'll take 2 extremes. Maxwell has 75hp, Wx with 3 super hardy circuits has a whopping 575hp.

I feel like you're moving the goalposts. Weren’t everyone supposed to had been talking about the comparison between Wilson and Wolfgang?

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

Football helmets are dirt cheap armour so both characters have pretty much infinite access to them

• Maxwell: 75hp ÷ 0.2 (80% football helm armour) has an effective health of 375hp.
• Wx78: 575hp ÷ 0.2 is an effective health of 2,875hp.

If both characters fight dragonfly like a Wilson using the wall cheese strat. Dragonfly does 75hp damage.

• Maxwell can take 4 hits from dragonfly and dying on the 5th hit. So he needs to heal after 4 hits, therefore needs to prep healing items to bring to the fight.
• Wx78 can take a whopping 38 hits from dragonfly and dying to the 39th hit.

Are you telling me the fight is going to be the same for these 2 characters?? No way is it. You have to babysit maxwells health the entire time while with Wx78 you don't even need to bring healing only armour.

Meaning a wx78 can use the vastly cheaper method of sleeping in a siesta while maxwell needs to cook 14 pierogi to match the total hp of Wx78, which means Maxwell needs to make crockpots, needs to gather the ingredients to cook the pierogis then needs to wait until they cook, and worry about food rotting. While a Wx78 can eat cooked monster meat or cooked berries or any other cheap brainless food then sleep.

Please tell me, for what reason would Maxwell ever not use Shadow Duelists or a Shadow Prison?

And you make it sound like as if WX-78 could get by with nothing more than a Siesta for healing, yet is there any logical way for WX-78 to defeat the Dragonfly in fewer than 39 hits taken? I just tested it in-game, the player can about hits 8 before the Dragonfly hit 1, which means roughly 320 hits before you die. How exactly is that you supposed to do? Even in God Mode, Dark Sword or soaking her and Morning Star, pressing F, but she didn’t so much as stun.

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

the community needs to stop parroting these illogical ideas without thinking for themselves.

Yes. Please.

Edited August 7, 2025 by SilverSpoon

[Mysterious box]

3 hours ago, Bumber64 said:

"Unfairly screwed" by otherwise being only slightly better at melee than other characters in the late game? Imagine if he had to pick up the slack to remain relevant by that point. Instead it remains free.

I wasn't considering ranged combat, but go figure Wolfgang isn't better at it than Walter/Willow, and no worse than anyone else. He's not robbed of anything. "When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

How would it be equality he lost something that defined him while other characters did not they still had their perks at full power but he basically lost his. It'd be like removing Webber's nurse spiders after you open the rift and saying followers don't normally heal others so now it's fair.

[Gashzer]

3 hours ago, Catuna_ said:

Players who are so bad that they have trouble healing with a healing item in their hotbar during the dragonfly fight are not going to be fighting dragonfly. They would be new players having trouble grasping the game in general. Quit shielding yourself with inexperienced players for your arguments. New players have NO reason to be this unprepared for a fight to just bring football helmets anyway since they're not gonna be good at kiting Dragonfly.

Maxwell has no reason to be wearing a football helmet instead of the higher damage reduction armors which he wants to go for anyway for his damage. Maxwell is also able to have his duelists attack for him and not participate in the fight at all thus taking 0 damage and he wouldn't even be losing sanity from anything because of his sanity regen. You're cherrypicking one specific example that isn't even good. If Wanda can make-do with playing with 37.5 hp just fine then you can play with 75, 125, 130, 150, 175, 200, 250 or 575.

Quit arguing in bad faith, man.

My argument was to prove how max hp does matter because it gives you alternative options on how to enter a fight and allows for different prep. My mathematical/logical breakdown of 2 different max hp characters as the only variable and them fighting as if they are Wilson with no other perks as the control. 

You guys would make terrible scientists... 

You can't argue against simple mathematical proofs, so I successfully won this debate.

Better luck next time Catuna! 

Edited August 7, 2025 by Gashzer

[Catuna_]

17 minutes ago, Gashzer said:

My argument was to prove how max hp does matter because it gives you alternative options on how to enter a fight and allows for different prep. My mathematical/logical breakdown of 2 different max hp characters as the only variable and them fighting as if they are Wilson with no other perks as the control. 

You guys would make terrible scientists... 

You can't argue against simple mathematical proofs, so I successfully won this debate.

Better luck next time Catuna! 

"Mathematical/logical" and you selected completely arbitrary circumstances...? Selecting an extreme that's not realistically what someone would do in-game is not scientific nor mathematical. You genuinely have nothing to say so you just resorted to being snarky.

 

[Gashzer]

18 minutes ago, Catuna_ said:

"Mathematical/logical" and you selected completely arbitrary circumstances...? Selecting an extreme that's not realistically what someone would do in-game is not scientific nor mathematical. You genuinely have nothing to say so you just resorted to being snarky.

 

I did mention it was extreme but it still proves the point. And the fact is, a larger max hp reduces the need to babysit your health during a fight which relieves mental pressure because that is one less thing you need to worry about for a longer period of time during a boss fight. And changes what prep you need to do. 

Just because this isn't the way you are accustomed to playing doesn't make it unrealistic, it just makes you narrow minded in your playstyle and habits.

To bring it back on topic, wolfgang with 200hp and a dark sword is easier to play and is henceforth a stronger character for combat when compared to old wanda because a 200hp wolfgang with a marble suit can survive 53 hits from dragonfly without dying, old wanda with night armour can only survive 9 hits and requires approximately 8 uses of her ageless watch to match wolfgangs max hp (which is a hell of a lot of ageless watch uses btw)

Max hp does matter lads, don't listen to these narrow minded speedrunners!

[SilverSpoon]

1 hour ago, Gashzer said:

You guys would make terrible scientists... 

You can't argue against simple mathematical proofs, so I successfully won this debate.

Better luck next time Catuna! 

---

OK, let’s get back to the point. 

For now, still only a handful of characters can out Wolfgang's DPS what his biggest selling point, and those who can usually require many resources and special operations, such as Winona’s catapults or Wurt’s Merms (And also, recent bosses pinpoint counter those). On top of that, Wolfgang’s instant-crafting speed and overall survival skills still upper tier. All things considered, I’d still rank Wolfgang in the S~A tier.

Over DST’s long history, Wolfgang’s “strength” has functioned as a kind of balance anchor. It’s fine for some characters to surpass him in specific areas, but if any character is stronger than he roughly overall, I’d say that character needs adjustment. Personally, I’m okay with Wolfgang being somewhat boring but simply strong. After all, he is “The Strongman.”

Edited August 7, 2025 by SilverSpoon

[Gashzer]

1 minute ago, SilverSpoon said:

---

OK, let’s get back to the point. 

For now, still only a handful of characters can out-DPS Wolfgang what his biggest selling point and those who can usually require many resources and special operations, such as Winona’s catapults or Wurt’s Merms (And also, recent bosses pinpoint counter those). On top of that, Wolfgang’s instant-crafting speed and overall survival skills still upper tier. All things considered, I’d still rank Wolfgang in the S~A tier.

Over DST’s long history, Wolfgang’s “strength” has functioned as a kind of balance anchor. It’s fine for some characters to surpass him in specific areas, but if any character is stronger than he roughly overall, I’d say that character needs adjustment. Personally, I’m okay with Wolfgang being somewhat boring but simply strong. After all, he is “The Strongman.”

Here lad i see you checking my profile every other week, you can go against me all you want... but i know the truth!

 

You miss me