wortox The issue with "Filler Skills" (Skill Desirability and Utility)

[crushcircuit]

"Filler skills" are something that people frequently complain about regarding Wortox's skill tree. The issue is that a lot of the skills building up to his really great perks don't really hold up well on their own, or the skills are split up more than they need to be.

This is especially evident when comparing him to Walter and Wendy, who both have absolutely fantastic skill trees, with many great additions to their character that don't feel like they're being divided unnecessarily. I love the changes Walter has been getting, and it genuinely feels like possibly the best skill tree that's been released thus far. The glow-up there is insane in the best way possible. Walter even got (much needed) base kit additions that actively improve his gameplay in ways that were recognized as necessary outside of the skill tree. This is great, and an issue skill trees have had in the past. I believe Wortox also suffers from this issue to a lesser degree, primarily with map teleportation.

I believe that Wortox's skill tree is largely good. It genuinely elevates him to being a really great character, and it's been improving my experience playing him tenfold. I already liked playing him before, but now that I've experienced his skill tree I really don't think I could ever go back.

Some of the additions feel like basically necessities, such as Capricious Movement improving his map teleportation severely. I cannot imagine playing without this skill, because teleporting without it is incredibly miserable. It should not be like that, either - as much as I love Capricious Movement, it should either be base kit, or Wortox's map teleportation efficiency should be increased, as a base kit buff separate from the skill.

Though, I do believe there are some skills on his skill tree that just don't really do much - or in some cases, what they do achieve works against you.

Reaching Souls II + Soul Bastion II:

Spoiler

Reaching Souls II is an active detriment. It makes Souls come to you faster, which makes you overload way faster if you don't have Naughty Inclination. (And chances are, if you're running Soul Bastion, you don't.) Beyond that, it brings nothing new to the table. The healing range increase from Reaching Souls I is more than enough, and yet another skill to increase that is kind of lame.

Soul Bastion II is not one I've personally used since it was changed, but it seems similarly underwhelming - more efficient healing is nice, but beyond that it just upgrades Soul Bastion I by making it a little faster, again. Why does that need to be a separate skill? Why can't the fast healing wave just be part of Soul Bastion to begin with? It feels like this branch is just trying to stretch itself as thin as possible to make getting the full thing a requirement.

Soul Bastion II's efficient healing seems like it'd fit really well as a replacement for Reaching Souls II. It'd give the branch a bit more utility without having to fully commit for it to be useful, and it doesn't seem very fitting for the final skill on the branch. I think that the healing efficiency could stand to be buffed just a bit as well. It seems nice to have with larger groups.

As for what that final skill could be, I think it'd be cool to see a skill that "uplifts" yourself and nearby allies, giving everyone a buff for a short period afterwards. This buff could be increased attack, defense, speed, or something more interesting, but I think that "status effects" and the such aren't really utilized in this game enough. This could also just as easily be a Neutral/Pan Flute skill instead, but I don't think it'd be terribly out-of-place on this branch. Soul Bastion just feels like it's missing something, and I'd really rather just use Twintailed Hearts for better, immediate healing perks.

This post also has some cool suggestions for ways Soul Bastion could be changed:

Soul Decoy II:

Spoiler

As many others have mentioned, Soul Decoy II making the Decoys last longer doesn't really do anything helpful, either. You can teleport away from mobs if that's what you need the Decoy for, and it'll still disappear if hit at all. Additionally, it delays Soul Decoy III's explosion if the enemy doesn't attack it, which can make it actually miss when it otherwise wouldn't have.

Soul Decoys should only be a 2 point investment. I would be fine with simply removing Soul Decoy II as the solution here. If the skill were to be reworked instead, I've seen the idea of increasing the aggro range or making mobs prioritize attacking the Decoy over Wortox (increasing the aggro "strength"), which has potential. Soul Decoys are pretty well-off already, but I figured I'd mention it. I don't think it really needs it, as I'm fairly certain enemies just prioritize whichever Wortox is closest, and that's relatively easy to play around.

Lifebringer II/Twintailed Hearts:

Spoiler

Twintailed Hearts are just incomplete if you don't get the full branch. This is a stark contrast to items other skill trees give, even within Wortox's own skill tree; Soul Jars are full, complete items. The rest of the Soul Jar skills are honestly just nice to have, not anywhere near necessities. You still have to use two points to get them, though, and I don't think the way this is done is super clean either.

This isn't even mentioning the fact that Lifebringer II is still bugged and doesnt do anything, meaning that Twintailed Hearts still give health penalty. This issue has been persistent since the start of the beta and wasn't fixed after it was initially reported, which is the reason why I mention it here.

Twintailed Hearts should also be a 2 point investment at max. One for revival utility without respawn penalty (making it a direct upgrade to the Telltale Heart from the getgo), and the second for the ability to "squeeze" the hearts for teleportation or burst heals. This could also just be bundled into one skill, but I'd settle for two.

(Honorable Mention I) Cloudy Carmen:

Spoiler

Speaking of things that don't work correctly, Cloudy Carmen's ability to force mobs to deaggro after waking up from your Pan Flute (even when you hit them!) doesn't extend to other players at all. This means it simply forces mobs to aggro onto other players after you wake them up, which makes the skill selfish and rather useless.

It's worthwhile to note that it also tends to be rather annoying with mobs such as Dragonfly where they will wander away from you after waking up. In this case it's particularly egregious, because she can easily outrun (or, well, fly) you. The idea of possibly making her deaggro and restart the fight because of the skill I picked... makes me a little nervous. Especially because Dragonfly's boss fight is one of the few situations where other characters DO consistently use the Pan Flute. Why does this skill inexplicably make Wortox worse at it?

I would be fine with this skill getting fixed simply by letting its effects extend to allies as well, making it situationally helpful. Perhaps there could be some way to make its effects trigger when you want them to, that way it's a bit more controlled? That'd definitely help with the Dragonfly thing, but still allow it to retain its utility in dealing with large groups of mobs.

Some people want it to be completely replaced, and I wouldn't mind seeing that either.

(Honorable Mention II) I also find that Soul Thief II doesn't mean anything outside of Soul Pierce. This isn't much of an issue, but I do find it a bit disappointing. I'd say it could probably be bundled with something else if it's not desirable as a pick on its own.

Among these issues, I do have to address the elephant in the room once more: Wortox's Inclinations. These are things that you don't explicitly choose, but rather, they're given to you when you've picked a certain amount of Nice or Naughty skills over the other. This is cool, but this is also what makes their downsides so frustrating.

The idea of having to balance the scales in order to account for inclinations is awesome. Unfortunately, Nice is pretty situational while Naughty is much more widely applicable in gameplay, which makes it feel extremely one-sided. I won't get into the gritty details here, but I have made an entire post about why I don't like Nice Inclination for those curious.

I genuinely wouldn't mind Nice Inclination if it was something you perked into, because I know some people DO like it, but it's not. Because of my playstyle, I'm forced to use it even though I don't utilize its upsides, which means the only effects that do anything are its downsides. I cannot play the way I want to without being punished for it.

I do not use Soul Jars, which means that maintaining my sanity with this inclination is actively setting back the amount of Souls that the rest of the Niceness perks are supposed to be conserving. Additionally, I don't have issues farming Nightmare Fuel without the inclination; Wortox was already pretty good at doing that.

This would also be less of an issue if the rest of the tree wasn't quite so tight, as I have gone over above. I don't mind having to adapt to inclinations, but it's a bit of a shame that I have to go out of my way to pick up useless skills on the basis that Nice Inclination is actively detrimental for me.

It is worthwhile to note that Wortox's Shadow/Lunar affinities also have no utility outside of Rifts. I don't play with Rifts on 99% of the time, so I have very little to add here, but it is a bit odd.

So, generally: Make Wortox's individual skills a bit more worthwhile. They don't even have to be game-changers. I enjoy taking Reaching Souls I and Soul Thief I because they're just nice to have even without Soul Bastion and Soul Pierce. Some skills can be easily condensed, too. It would give him a bit more wiggle room, and it'd make the skill tree feel a bit less rigid.

[Dingle]

7 minutes ago, crushcircuit said:

"Filler skills" are something that people frequently complain about regarding Wortox's skill tree. The issue is that a lot of the skills building up to his really great perks don't really hold up well on their own, or the skills are split up more than they need to be.

This is especially evident when comparing him to Walter and Wendy, who both have absolutely fantastic skill trees, with many great additions to their character that don't feel like they're being divided unnecessarily. I love the changes Walter has been getting, and it genuinely feels like possibly the best skill tree that's been released thus far. The glow-up there is insane in the best way possible. Walter even got (much needed) base kit additions that actively improve his gameplay in ways that were recognized as necessary outside of the skill tree. This is great, and an issue skill trees have had in the past. I believe Wortox also suffers from this issue to a lesser degree, though I'll address that somewhat in another post. (Hopefully.)

I believe that Wortox's skill tree is largely good. It genuinely elevates him to being a really great character, and it's been improving my experience playing him tenfold. I already liked playing him before, but now that I've experienced his skill tree I really don't think I could ever go back. Some of the additions feel like basically necessities, such as Capricious Movement improving his map teleportation severely. I cannot imagine playing without this skill, because teleporting without it is incredibly miserable.

Though, I do believe there are some skills on his skill tree that just don't really do much - or in some cases, what they do achieve works against you.

Reaching Souls II + Soul Bastion II:

  Hide contents

Reaching Souls II is an active detriment. It makes Souls come to you faster, which makes you overload way faster if you don't have Naughty Inclination. (And chances are, if you're running Soul Bastion, you don't.) Beyond that, it brings nothing new to the table. The healing range increase from Reaching Souls I is more than enough, and yet another skill to increase that is kind of lame.

Soul Bastion II is not one I've personally used since it was changed, but it seems similarly underwhelming - more efficient healing is nice, but beyond that it just upgrades Soul Bastion I by making it a little faster, again. Why does that need to be a separate skill? Why can't the fast healing wave just be part of Soul Bastion to begin with? It feels like this branch is just trying to stretch itself as thin as possible to make getting the full thing a requirement.

Soul Bastion II's efficient healing seems like it'd fit really well as a replacement for Reaching Souls II. It'd give the branch a bit more utility without having to fully commit for it to be useful, and it doesn't seem very fitting for the final skill on the branch. I think that the healing efficiency could stand to be buffed just a bit as well. It seems nice to have with larger groups.

As for what that final skill could be, I think it'd be cool to see a skill that "uplifts" yourself and nearby allies, giving everyone a buff for a short period afterwards. This buff could be increased attack, defense, speed, or something more interesting, but I think that "status effects" and the such aren't really utilized in this game enough. This could also just as easily be a Neutral/Pan Flute skill instead, but I don't think it'd be terribly out-of-place on this branch. Soul Bastion just feels like it's missing something, and I'd really rather just use Twintailed Hearts for better, immediate healing perks.

This post also has some cool suggestions for ways Soul Bastion could be changed:

Soul Decoy II:

  Hide contents

As many others have mentioned, Soul Decoy II making the Decoys last longer doesn't really do anything helpful, either. You can teleport away from mobs if that's what you need the Decoy for, and it'll still disappear if hit at all. Additionally, it delays Soul Decoy III's explosion if the enemy doesn't attack it, which can make it actually miss when it otherwise wouldn't have.

Soul Decoys should only be a 2 point investment. I would be fine with simply removing Soul Decoy II as the solution here. If the skill were to be reworked instead, I've seen the idea of increasing the aggro range or making mobs prioritize attacking the Decoy over Wortox (increasing the aggro "strength"), which has potential. Soul Decoys are pretty well-off already, but I figured I'd mention it. I don't think it really needs it, as I'm fairly certain enemies just prioritize whichever Wortox is closest, and that's relatively easy to play around.

Lifebringer II/Twintailed Hearts:

  Hide contents

Twintailed Hearts are just incomplete if you don't get the full branch. This is a stark contrast to items other skill trees give, even within Wortox's own skill tree; Soul Jars are full, complete items. The rest of the Soul Jar skills are honestly just nice to have, not anywhere near necessities. You still have to use two points to get them, though, and I don't think the way this is done is super clean either.

This isn't even mentioning the fact that Lifebringer II is still bugged and doesnt do anything, meaning that Twintailed Hearts still give health penalty. This issue has been persistent since the start of the beta and wasn't fixed after it was initially reported, which is the reason why I mention it here.

Twintailed Hearts should also be a 2 point investment at max. One for revival utility without respawn penalty (making it a direct upgrade to the Telltale Heart from the getgo), and the second for the ability to "squeeze" the hearts for teleportation or burst heals. This could also just be bundled into one skill, but I'd settle for two.

(Honorable Mention I) Cloudy Carmen:

  Hide contents

Speaking of things that don't work correctly, Cloudy Carmen's ability to force mobs to deaggro after waking up from your Pan Flute (even when you hit them!) doesn't extend to other players at all. This means it simply forces mobs to aggro onto other players after you wake them up, which makes the skill selfish and rather useless.

It's worthwhile to note that it also tends to be rather annoying with mobs such as Dragonfly where they will wander away from you after waking up. In this case it's particularly egregious, because she can easily outrun (or, well, fly) you. The idea of possibly making her deaggro and restart the fight because of the skill I picked... makes me a little nervous. Especially because Dragonfly's boss fight is one of the few situations where other characters DO consistently use the Pan Flute. Why does this skill inexplicably make Wortox worse at it?

I would be fine with this skill getting fixed simply by letting its effects extend to allies as well, making it situationally helpful. Perhaps there could be some way to make its effects trigger when you want them to, that way it's a bit more controlled? That'd definitely help with the Dragonfly thing, but still allow it to retain its utility in dealing with large groups of mobs.

(Honorable Mention II) I also find that Soul Thief II doesn't mean anything outside of Soul Pierce. This isn't much of an issue, but I do find it a bit disappointing. I'd say it could probably be bundled with something else if it's not desirable as a pick on its own.

Among these issues, I do have to address the elephant in the room once more: Wortox's Inclinations. These are things that you don't explicitly choose, but rather, they're given to you when you've picked a certain amount of Nice or Naughty skills over the other. This is cool, but this is also what makes their downsides so frustrating.

The idea of having to balance the scales in order to account for inclinations is awesome. Unfortunately, Nice is pretty situational while Naughty is much more widely applicable in gameplay, which makes it feel extremely one-sided. I won't get into the gritty details here, but I have made an entire post about why I don't like Nice Inclination for those curious.

I genuinely wouldn't mind Nice Inclination if it was something you perked into, because I know some people DO like it, but it's not. Because of my playstyle, I'm forced to use it even though I don't utilize its upsides, which means the only effects that do anything are its downsides. I cannot play the way I want to without being punished for it.

I do not use Soul Jars, which means that maintaining my sanity with this inclination is actively setting back the amount of Souls that the rest of the Niceness perks are supposed to be conserving. Additionally, I don't have issues farming Nightmare Fuel without the inclination; Wortox was already pretty good at doing that.

This would also be less of an issue if the rest of the tree wasn't quite so tight, as I have gone over above. I don't mind having to adapt to inclinations, but it's a bit of a shame that I have to go out of my way to pick up useless skills on the basis that Nice Inclination is actively detrimental for me.

It is worthwhile to note that Wortox's Shadow/Lunar affinities also have no utility outside of Rifts. I don't play with Rifts on 99% of the time, so I have very little to add here, but it is a bit odd.

So, generally: Make Wortox's individual skills a bit more worthwhile. They don't even have to be game-changers. I enjoy taking Reaching Souls I and Soul Thief I because they're just nice to have even without Soul Bastion and Soul Pierce. Some skills can be easily condensed, too. It would give him a bit more wiggle room, and it'd make the skill tree feel a bit less rigid.

Another Soul Bastion 2 problem: It doesn't do anything for you solo. And you NEED to pick it if you're doing a solo 8 Nice, 6 Naughty 1 affinity build.

It needs to do something more, both due to solo Nice and in general.

I'd personally be happier if Soul Bastion 2 gave you an extra soul drop's worth of sanity. So a dropped soul as Nice would give 10 sanity, total. Neutral would give 5.

My vote is still for removing Cloudy Carmen, completely.

[Tarnishedmax]

Heavy on the condensing of soul decoy and life bringer, both of the skills are really good and extremely awesome but both of them having an unnecessary perk investment for the sake of filler feels so bad 

[IDreamerI]

I agree with you. Skills that don't do anything are a terrible decision.Wendy and Walter invest 1 skill point in something and immediately get 1 item or ability that works properly.At the same time, Wortox needs to spend 5 skill points to get 1 item, which is also defective.Skills that change the effects associated with souls are completely useless, and I don't like it.Oh, yes, the worldview might seem like a fun idea, but overall it was poorly implemented, so much so that I often forget about it.

Thanks for attention.I'm sorry for my English.

[Hyuyu]

Agreed, I just don't like how they handled Nice being the "teamplay" part of the tree.

In most instances you can boil down those to "are you playing solo?" to then if yes then you will not care about hearts, which also sort of locks you out of the Nice affinity as a whole because most people will not want bastion/heart skills that do essentially nothing when solo. This feels pretty bad, because wasting 3-4 points on nice skills, to balance with your highly likely to have, soul jar, will essentially give you no good perks. 

I would love to see the nice skills offer some benefit overall to the wortox player overall, even if tiny, I would like to see anything (more heals, a small defensive buff in combat, chance to not consume soul when healing with one...)

 

Boiling the skills down to costing less would make those 'worse' perks more desirable while opening for more variety in builds. I'm afraid if nothing changes, I'll be sticking to a single build and never change, unlike on Walter for instance where I can see myself wanting to do various different builds to try out other perks down the line.

[Y0sH]

Some skills I can think of that should be combined off the top of my head are Soul Decoy 1&2 and Lifebringer 2&3. The soul Decoy lasting longer does nothing especially if all enemies don't completely aggro to it and life bringer 1 giving essentially a heart revive is fine but the additional benefits should be a two point investment.

Cloudy Carmen is in an annoying place too and could warrant a complete rework: 

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/163484-temporary-mind-control-instead-of-cloudy-carmen/#comment-1790543

If the Skilltree must stay as tight as it is then consider making the affinities 2-part to give players some kind of benefit outside of gear exclusive post rift content.

 

[Echsrick]

yea, its one thing for a skill be just an extra investmend before gettin the max, like wolfgangs work crit skills, as long it actualy does something even if not maxed out, and a skill that is kind of just there that does nothing like wortox decoy 2

[YouKnowWho142]

7 hours ago, Hyuyu said:

Agreed, I just don't like how they handled Nice being the "teamplay" part of the tree.

In most instances you can boil down those to "are you playing solo?" to then if yes then you will not care about hearts, which also sort of locks you out of the Nice affinity as a whole because most people will not want bastion/heart skills that do essentially nothing when solo. This feels pretty bad, because wasting 3-4 points on nice skills, to balance with your highly likely to have, soul jar, will essentially give you no good perks. 

I would love to see the nice skills offer some benefit overall to the wortox player overall, even if tiny, I would like to see anything (more heals, a small defensive buff in combat, chance to not consume soul when healing with one...)

 

Boiling the skills down to costing less would make those 'worse' perks more desirable while opening for more variety in builds. I'm afraid if nothing changes, I'll be sticking to a single build and never change, unlike on Walter for instance where I can see myself wanting to do various different builds to try out other perks down the line.

I dunno, i like that the skills on the nice side give him teamplay, while the naughty skills mostly only buffs himself to tie into his selfish side. I know a lot of people play solo, but as someone who plays a fair amount of multiplayer with friends wortox has always been really good in a team setting. i do agree that more of the nice skills should give Wortox some benefits, though

[Hyuyu]

1 hour ago, YouKnowWho142 said:

I dunno, i like that the skills on the nice side give him teamplay, while the naughty skills mostly only buffs himself to tie into his selfish side. I know a lot of people play solo, but as someone who plays a fair amount of multiplayer with friends wortox has always been really good in a team setting. i do agree that more of the nice skills should give Wortox some benefits, though

I really really like the concept of teamplay in skilltrees, but wortox pushes it a lot for no benefits to him which is sad

[Fyffnuft]

20 hours ago, Hyuyu said:

I really really like the concept of teamplay in skilltrees, but wortox pushes it a lot for no benefits to him which is sad

exactly this, he needs to do something on his on especially damage