[Wortox] Skill Tree Tweaks Megathread

[ApoIIo]

16 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Can't wait to be disincentivized from playing my own main on pubs on the prod branch cus they don't have a 20% chance bee biome.

Yayyyyyy!

He does fine without a killer bee biome it's really not that bad

[OMEGASCRUFF]

2 minutes ago, ApoIIo said:

He does fine without a killer bee biome it's really not that bad

Lmfao ok dude

[Guille6785]

22 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

20% chance bee biome

*50%

[OMEGASCRUFF]

Just now, Guille6785 said:

*50%

Did they increase it recently? I wasn't getting this during worldgen tests, and resort to a mod now.

Been an issue on the few pubs that are up in the beta branch though. It'll be even more noticeable once we're on the prod branch.

[Guille6785]

5 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Did they increase it recently? I wasn't getting this during worldgen tests, and resort to a mod now.

Been an issue on the few pubs that are up in the beta branch though. It'll be even more noticeable once we're on the prod branch.

all optional biomes are a 50% chance each, if you want proof the killer bee biome spawned 5057 times in a brute force database of 10000 worlds

[OMEGASCRUFF]

7 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

all optional biomes are a 50% chance each, if you want proof the killer bee biomes spawned 5057 times in a brute force database of 10000 worlds

Hmm weird. My own test didn't yield this but obviously the sample size is lower. I did 25 resets. Takes way too long for me to do more than that lmao

When was this test done? I'd like to look at other results, cus this beta put me through a phase of heavy worldgenning for day 1 shadow pieces.

Edit: Did the math. I think that means I hit a .2% chance of 5 or less, though it's been over a decade since I studied statistics. That would be crazy. Possible, but crazy, and why I stopped at 25 lol

[Guille6785]

8 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Hmm weird. My own test didn't yield this but obviously the sample size is lower. I did 25 resets. Takes way too long for me to do more than that lmao

When was this test done? I'd like to look at other results, cus this beta put me through a phase of heavy worldgenning for day 1 shadow pieces.

Edit: Did the math. I think that means I hit a .2% chance of 5 or less, though it's been over a decade since I studied statistics. That would be crazy. Possible, but crazy, and why I stopped at 25 lol

This was done on the current live patch, none of the worldgen files have changed in the beta AFAIK (and the code that dictactes how biomes connect to each other hasn't been touched in like 10 years) so it's impossible for it to differ

[OMEGASCRUFF]

4 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

This was done on the current live patch, none of the worldgen files have changed in the beta AFAIK (and the code that dictactes how biomes connect to te each other hasn't been touched in like 10 years) so it's impossible for it to differ

Yeah they rarely touch worldgen, which is why I would be surprised if something changed. Knew it was 50% for rocky biome, which lines up with my tests (I got 14.)

Could you shoot me a link to these test results? There's other things I'm interested in about this stuff.

(Still doesn't change the fact that Wortox is hella gimped without this biome tho. There's no remotely comparable farm setup for him until late-game, and farming bees still just sucks as an experience.)

[Guille6785]

3 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Yeah they rarely touch worldgen, which is why I would be surprised if something changed. Knew it was 50% for rocky biome, which lines up with my tests (I got 14.)

Could you shoot me a link to these test results? There's other things I'm interested in about this stuff.

(Still doesn't change the fact that Wortox is hella gimped without this biome tho. There's no remotely comparable farm setup for him until late-game, and farming bees still just sucks as an experience.)

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y0krpWdYHdVkR3f5cbITYHLBGxqKqthJenGI29VNAtU/edit?usp=sharing

[OMEGASCRUFF]

35 minutes ago, Guille6785 said:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y0krpWdYHdVkR3f5cbITYHLBGxqKqthJenGI29VNAtU/edit?usp=sharing

Thanks!!

Okay I think I know what the issue is, cus the odds are just too low for me to not question them. Was just a difference in qualifier. I was only counting the full biome, because I think this is counting bee bridges too. Those can be absolutely horrible for Wortox and only spawn like one to three hives, which is just really not that great. So it's probably the .5 * .4686 on dead ends, though I mostly found good worldgen as an Oasis offshoot (.5 * .3258) so it's probably one of those that gave me these results, likely the former, so 23%. This would link up better with what I saw and make more sense of that kind of probability.

Edit: So 12% for a usable Killer Bee biome + triple MacTusk for multiplayer. No wonder it takes me so long to gen a good world for hosting multiplayer servers...

[arlebedroom]

I agree. Wortox's skill tree is great. But it still need some polish. In fact, Wortox' s soul has overflew because of soul jar. The soul bastion I and bastion II's second healing is kind of meaningless and embarrassing.I suggest the second healing could be removed and replaced by other effects, such as enhance power. Because it can improve the entertainment of playing together. And,actually, Wortox's attack ability is weak. So,It also can make up for this one. 

[ApoIIo]

8 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Lmfao ok dude

No I mean it. His AoE skills make spiders a good replacement as well. You don't have to build bee boxes or anything if you stumble into a spider quarry or something.
If there is no spider quarry either, all you need to cover your lifelong soul needs in a way that takes seconds is gathering a bunch of spider nests and putting them close to each other. It's really not the sort of significant downgrade that you're making it out to be, and this is arguably better because the drops are more useful than stingers.
Besides how many jars do you think you'll end up with if you're playing on a pub for too short to gather a few spider eggs?

Forgot to add but this video is not mine it's splorange's. 

[Echsrick]

i never in my time have used killer bees or realy bugnets for the purpose of holding more souls, fish farm however with tinfishin bin is the good stuff, i have no need to even fight anything

[ApoIIo]

4 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

i never in my time have used killer bees or realy bugnets for the purpose of holding more souls, fish farm however with tinfishin bin is the good stuff, i have no need to even fight anything

Oh no I hate this method. It's far too slow to provide even a fraction of the souls I need to get around with, its setup cost is a fairly enormous amount, it involves a ton amount of clicking and it results in fish meat that I either have to eat on the spot with a slow animation or dispose of somehow.

[Echsrick]

15 minutes ago, ApoIIo said:

Oh no I hate this method. It's far too slow to provide even a fraction of the souls I need to get around with, its setup cost is a fairly enormous amount, it involves a ton amount of clicking and it results in fish meat that I either have to eat on the spot with a slow animation or dispose of somehow.

whats wrong with eating meat?

[ApoIIo]

5 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

whats wrong with eating meat?

I'm sitting there waiting for a long ass eating animation for 6 hunger just so it doesn't clutter the ground and look ugly. But this is one of the smallest downsides, considering everything else.

[Echsrick]

3 minutes ago, ApoIIo said:

I'm sitting there waiting for a long ass eating animation for 6 hunger just so it doesn't clutter the ground and look ugly. But this is one of the smallest downsides, considering everything else.

make meaty stew out of it

[ApoIIo]

Just now, Echsrick said:

make meaty stew out of it

If I'm Wortox, I'm not gonna bother with mortal food. Besides, you need to dry fish if it's going to be the bulk of your meat inside a stew, and you'll catch me dead before you see me use those pathetic racks.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

8 hours ago, ApoIIo said:

No I mean it. His AoE skills make spiders a good replacement as well. You don't have to build bee boxes or anything if you stumble into a spider quarry or something.
If there is no spider quarry either, all you need to cover your lifelong soul needs in a way that takes seconds is gathering a bunch of spider nests and putting them close to each other. It's really not the sort of significant downgrade that you're making it out to be, and this is arguably better because the drops are more useful than stingers.
Besides how many jars do you think you'll end up with if you're playing on a pub for too short to gather a few spider eggs?

Forgot to add but this video is not mine it's splorange's. 

I know. I've done a similar farm at an even larger scale. But take a look at the day count. This doesn't look like an average pub to me, which is what I said in the post you replied to.

But, sure, we can compare them as general farm options. (Also Bee Boxes are out of the question. You need the aggro pulling to get high value out of a Soul farm, so Killer Bees are #1 with Spiders at #2, with similar results to a Varg farm.)

This is not only still not as fast, but it's dependent on time of day. It also forces your skill choice to full AoE to speed it up better, which is not a healthy design choice, and also requires cave rifts for Shadow Harvester. Catapults are the only other real way around the skill limitations. This isn't flexible like bees are.

The drops are irrelevant. You end up with more than you can process very rapidly, and players probably want a mid- or late-game spider farm regardless of Soul farming, which also does the same thing as far as drops-becoming-excessive is concerned. Solo, at day 508, I'd rather get the Honey, because it means I'll never need Bee Boxes. I have more Monster Meat than I know what to do with by day 200, and a Varg farm does the job better, since it's a 100% drop (I let it rot, lol.) The main upside to Spiders is that you can scale it better to the number of jars you want to hold (usually 2-4), but a good Bee Biome is giving you enough for 3+ jars already, and is still faster to use, and doesn't force your build. There's also the Spider Queen issue, which would require distance from your choke point + Den Decorating Kits, or probably catapults and statues or something.

Killer Bees are available day 1, require zero setup, and are easy to farm with even a single AoE skill. Spider Eggs require quite a bit of setup and take 45-90 days to tier up twice, plus the extra time required for building. This means you have no adequate Soul farm for the entire duration of core progression. Only thing you can do to accelerate this is swap to Webber, but that has its own resources costs involved, and means you're not contributing to progress. Best option to use them is a worldgen choke point (RNG or caves) or Dock Kits, while bees come pre-built and ready to go.

It's a huge downgrade, this much is really, really obvious. Spiders are the only way to make a world tolerable without one, but it's still slower and far, FAR less accessible, even discounting all the setup and world age required.

The only option better than Killer Bees at the moment is a Bigspook farm, which takes a really unfortunate amount of setup in solo play, and still quite a lot in multiplayer. It's absolutely a late-game only option, and it's incredibly expensive to build.

Anyways, the real problem is that this is more than likely not going to be a build worth investing in on pubs. This looks like Splorange's solo world, and it's day 508. Most pubs don't go past a few seasons to begin with, and those that do, tend to end a bit after progression is complete. Those that end up being long-term with high day counts are pretty uncommon, though they are around, and this is the only environment where a spider farm like this is really a viable option. So if you're a player that likes to join servers to meet people to game with, you're more than likely SOOL without a real bee biome. And, if the qualifier for a fully-formed bee biome as discussed above is the 50% worldgen rate multiplied the 47% dead-end rate, this is going to be a problem more often than not. Your only other option on worldgen is the 1-2 (rarely 3) hives by Bee Queen, which usually gets destroyed, or a mediocre bee bridge at a 50% * 53% rate (maybe?), which can also easily spawn with only 1-3 hives. It's already hard enough to find a good server, for every other reason (the players, ping, mods, etc.) This just adds another barrier for Wortox players (and server hosts who want to be inclusive of them) unless we're willing to just play a different character. And that all sucks, quite a lot.

This is a bad symptom of the skill tree focusing on quantity over quality. Its short-sightedness has several flaws, not only just the whole bee situation, but also what arlebedroom said regarding its negative impact on the value of Soul Bastion (and Soulbringer III, and Pleasant Pastorale, and poor mechanics with Covetous Collector and Overflowing Greed.) It really doesn't have to be this way. But like I said, this is an issue with joining pubs. I do not see a farm like this happening on the vast majority of servers you'd join on the server list, so this isn't any argument against that.

I really wish I could just get value out of a normal-sized Spider farm, or a Werepig farm, or a small Varg farm, or even just three Killer Bee Hives, or bosses, or, you know, just killing anything I see while doing my business. But we just deal with too high numbers now, and it's really lame that it's like this. You can't even get a 40 stack of Souls without holding 4 jars, like.... Why is it all designed this way?

It's appalling to me that we've gotten almost no attention for 2.5 months. How often have we ever gotten updates that were a perfect hole-in-one? Do we really think 2.5 months of playtesting wouldn't eventually reveal ANY structural issues?? I just can't believe that the team is so willing to pretend this is the case. It's not a good look, especially when it's during the same beta where Walter got this amazing rework.

Anyway, I think I still have my test world with my own spider farm like this somewhere. It's really stupid and extra, lmao. I could probably grab a screenshot and video of it if desired. I showed a friend and they yelled at me for the lag it caused them, so that's always fun.

7 hours ago, Echsrick said:

i never in my time have used killer bees or realy bugnets for the purpose of holding more souls, fish farm however with tinfishin bin is the good stuff, i have no need to even fight anything

No offense, but haven't you already admitted to not having played the beta first-hand? Has that changed? This kind of thing really has to be experienced, not just thought about. Not saying that your input can't be valuable, of course it can, but when it comes to things that are specifically intertwined with the overall gameplay experience... we should probably try to keep input genuine and well-informed by applied playtesting, shouldn't we?

[erick was right]

It's funny how Wortox was actually really good compared to Wendy and Walter skill trees but right now it's the other way around

After their good update to Walter I hope they will notice that Wortox has same problem with filler skills that do nothing/are useless

[Hollow soul 3]

Twintale's base skill is pretty bad too. Trade 200 health for a telltale heart is nuts. I know it gets better, but at that cost it should start better. It's not worth dipping into, it's only good once you dump 3 insight 

[Echsrick]

11 hours ago, ApoIIo said:

If I'm Wortox, I'm not gonna bother with mortal food. Besides, you need to dry fish if it's going to be the bulk of your meat inside a stew, and you'll catch me dead before you see me use those pathetic racks.

i mean not to say any ways to get food and souls is a bad way, its just alternatives that exist

4 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

No offense, but haven't you already admitted to not having played the beta first-hand? Has that changed? This kind of thing really has to be experienced, not just thought about. Not saying that your input can't be valuable, of course it can, but when it comes to things that are specifically intertwined with the overall gameplay experience... we should probably try to keep input genuine and well-informed by applied playtesting, shouldn't we?

the thing is, it matters not if beta or not, you get souls 1 way or another, i myself simple never in need of gettin 5 jars to fill completly up, litteraly killing anything is good aslong it gets you more souls, i dont think more then 1 soul jar is realy needed anyways and if you just kill things as things happen then the jar is gettin filled, no need to and do soul pierce mass murder bees or spiders, realy, just kill what comes is a more relaxed way

[OMEGASCRUFF]

28 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

the thing is, it matters not if beta or not, you get souls 1 way or another, i myself simple never in need of gettin 5 jars to fill completly up, litteraly killing anything is good aslong it gets you more souls, i dont think more then 1 soul jar is realy needed anyways and if you just kill things as things happen then the jar is gettin filled, no need to and do soul pierce mass murder bees or spiders, realy, just kill what comes is a more relaxed way

The biggest asset of the Soul Jar is that it drastically diminishes how long it takes to collect each individual Soul by an insane amount through removing your Soul cap, and it empowers a very liberating level of map teleporting. While I think the latter was a good thing, the former had a bunch of negative secondary effects, such as removing any concern for the cost of healing, and how it encourages and discourages certain Soul farming options. We really didn't have to farm Souls before the beta. That wasn't really a thing, especially because we were significantly more conservative with map teleports and healing. We could restock in small quantities and get away with it, or just constantly murder stuff in our travels (which is what I did.) Neither of those get the job done anymore, in large part due to the cost of map teleporting still being disproportionally WAY higher than healing or Soul Hopping (or eating but lol who cares.) Capricious Movement didn't proportionally do enough, and the base cost for map teleporting is still too high.

[ApoIIo]

7 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

We really didn't have to farm Souls before the beta. That wasn't really a thing, especially because we were significantly more conservative with map teleports and healing. We could restock in small quantities and get away with it, or just constantly murder stuff in our travels (which is what I did.)

Did we play the same character? Before capricious movement I had to burn like 50 souls a day just to get my traveling needs met when I needed to travel. I had to put bee box farms in every biome on the map to meet that demand.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

7 minutes ago, ApoIIo said:

Did we play the same character? Before capricious movement I had to burn like 50 souls a day just to get my traveling needs met when I needed to travel. I had to put bee box farms in every biome on the map to meet that demand.

 

7 hours ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

That wasn't really a thing, especially because we were significantly more conservative with map teleports and healing.

Any other questions?