Discussion and Rebuttal on the Reasons for Modifying Wendy's Skill Tree

[Yifei_]

Argument 1: Players who think Wendy's skill tree needs modification just want her to be stronger.

Rebuttal: We want Wendy's skill tree to be more playable and interesting. No one wants Wendy to become another Wolfgang. For example, take the case of Cursed Vexation: The numbers here are too high, which affects the fun of Wendy's related combat.

 

Argument 2: Wendy's skill tree needs modification because "Wendy is very popular."

Rebuttal: The reason Wendy's skill tree needs modification is that some of the designs are just too bad. In addition to the previously mentioned Cursed Vexation, another example is Lunar Sisterhood III. According to my detailed testing, the game experience with Lunar Abigail is even worse than without this skill.

 

Argument 3: Wendy's skill tree has completely erased her weaknesses.

Rebuttal: Wendy's weaknesses are still present and need to be overcome through learning and practice.

Weakness 1: Abigail's survival against bosses is very challenging.
Approach to overcoming the weakness: Use higher proficiency when facing bosses to adjust Wendy and Abigail's positions to help Abigail survive in boss fights.
Skill tree changes:

• Team Spirits: This skill demands even higher proficiency from you: Higher proficiency leads to better survival. This aligns with the approach to overcoming the weakness and is currently a very good skill.
• Blessed Sisturn III: After the last change, this skill has already prevented Abigail from mindlessly facing bosses with Spectral Cure-All.
• Lunar Abigail: Unfortunately, according to my tests, this skill has not improved this weakness. For details, please refer to the previous feedback post on Lunar Abigail.

Weakness 2: Wendy needs to face shadow creatures alone.
Skill tree improvements: The skill tree has hardly made any improvements in this regard (except for Affinity, which is available to all characters, but its impact is quite minimal). I hope this weakness is retained, meaning that Lunar Abigail should not be able to attack shadow creatures. This makes Wendy's experience of clearing the Ruins more challenging and interesting.

Discussion: Where Exactly Is the Problem with the Skill Tree?

I have conducted a detailed analysis in this thread of mine.

 

 

[DVGMedia]

Dang and I just made some good suggestions over on my removal thread But i can move them over here
I feel like its possible to shave down some of the points that are on the tree to be able to provide new gamplay incentives for wendy and abby

 the lunar and shadow branches don't really need 3 The first upgrade should just be part of the affinity transformation  and doing so could potentially free up 2 points

Elixir duration and Butterfly revival could probabably also be removed allowing for  4 skill points that can go to making unique interactions with wendy and abby.

Some of the suggestions that could work would be
1 could be Boosting abbys damage when wendy is lower health. ala glass cannon wendy This should be one thats tied to a branch however it should be the final one bought and the player should be required to spend more points on it.
It could be the last part of team spirit maybe The numbers for this should also be adjusted so its not too crazy.

The shroud can come back Some people had the idea of making it so that abby links with wendy so that they are teathered together more tightly. if she gets out of range of wendy she dissolves and spawns back ontop of wendy. (this can be good for gestalt so that way gestalt is Not constantly getting out of position )

More potions? since wendy is supposed to do ectoherbology  there could be a few new potions she could buy into.

Astral projection. Allows abby  to have a chance to have an attack blocked without taking damage.
on wreath on consumption  the player dies without losing their inventory and will be revived after 10 seconds Being able to use the powers a ghost offers (could be good synergy with the vengful ghost) If wendy does this abby does not despawn and delevel

I cant really think of what would be good for 1 more alternate playstyle skill point  so go ahead and have a crack at it
those are just some ideas that could make her more unique with what  currently exists with the tree

-edit I forgot that her grave resurrection is basically a nothing skill aswell.  so that makes 1 more point for something else entirely

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

1 could be Boosting abbys damage when wendy is lower health.

Eh, just would like to clarify it without offending. This was the original design of the refresh of Wendy from the very beginning of the beta at that time. It was unpopular at that time then devs rework it into the current "15/25/40" damage scale.

The time has changed. It seems this idea is far better than some other skills what we have in skill trees now. It's a bit... Surprising for me.

[DVGMedia]

Just now, Steorra said:

Eh, just would like to clarify it without offending. This was the original design of the refresh of Wendy from the very beginning of the beta at that time. It was unpopular at that time then devs rework it into the current "15/25/40" damage scale.

The time has changed. It seems this idea is far better than some other skills what we have in skill trees now. It's a bit... Surprising for me.

Thats why im thinking it works great for the skill tree For those who perfer consistincey they can keep abby as normal and not get it.
But for those who want to go crazy and get maximizing this is a great choice.
And what is more perfect than having it be part of team spirit. 

[Yifei_]

5 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

Dang and I just made some good suggestions over on my removal thread But i can move them over here
I feel like its possible to shave down some of the points that are on the tree to be able to provide new gamplay incentives for wendy and abby

 the lunar and shadow branches don't really need 3 The first upgrade should just be part of the affinity transformation  and doing so could potentially free up 2 points

Elixir duration and Butterfly revival could probabably also be removed allowing for  4 skill points that can go to making unique interactions with wendy and abby.

Some of the suggestions that could work would be
1 could be Boosting abbys damage when wendy is lower health. ala glass cannon wendy This should be one thats tied to a branch however it should be the final one bought and the player should be required to spend more points on it.
It could be the last part of team spirit maybe The numbers for this should also be adjusted so its not too crazy.

The shroud can come back Some people had the idea of making it so that abby links with wendy so that they are teathered together more tightly. if she gets out of range of wendy she dissolves and spawns back ontop of wendy. (this can be good for gestalt so that way gestalt is Not constantly getting out of position )

More potions? since wendy is supposed to do ectoherbology  there could be a few new potions she could buy into.

Astral projection. Allows abby  to have a chance to have an attack blocked without taking damage.
on wreath on consumption  the player dies without losing their inventory and will be revived after 10 seconds Being able to use the powers a ghost offers (could be good synergy with the vengful ghost) If wendy does this abby does not despawn and delevel

I cant really think of what would be good for 1 more alternate playstyle skill point  so go ahead and have a crack at it

those are just some ideas that could make her more unique with what  currently exists with the tree

Your suggestion is excellent! Thank you for your advice.

Some skills in the current skill tree, like the Elixir duration and Butterfly revival that you mentioned, feel to me like noise in the skill tree. I also support removing them.

The newer design of shroud is great, but the previous design was somewhat flawed as it made Abigail take damage, which goes against Wendy's core gameplay of protecting Abigail. However, I really like the "tether together tightly" concept. This not only fits Wendy's character but also has considerable practicality.

 

[TeaY]

Friend, thank you for your arrangement!

[Evelo]

3 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

Rebuttal: The reason Wendy's skill tree needs modification is that some of the designs are just too bad. In addition to the previously mentioned Cursed Vexation, another example is Lunar Sisterhood III. According to my detailed testing, the game experience with Lunar Abigail is even worse than without this skill.

I do quite dislike Gestalt Abigail. She is very janky and doesn't seem to fulfill what she is designed to do. Touching that up would go a long way. Cursed vexation is quite powerful and could easily receive a numbers tweak. As for the "some of the designs are just too bad." Firstly, What is bad specifically? Secondly, If Wendy is not allowed to have Bad Skills, then is it acceptable for developer time to be spent on other characters who also have "Bad Skills"? (Of which everyone has some).

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

2小时前，Yifei_说：

你的建议很棒！感谢您的建议。

当前技能树中的一些技能，比如你提到的长生不老药持续时间和蝴蝶复兴，对我来说就像技能树中的噪音。我也支持移除它们。

裹尸布的新设计很棒，但之前的设计有些缺陷，因为它让Abigail受到伤害，这与Wendy保护Abigail的核心游戏玩法背道而馳。然而，我真的很喜欢“紧紧地绑在一起”的概念。这不仅符合Wendy的性格，而且具有相当的实用性。

 

I hope that the corolla of Wendy's skill tree can be replaced with something very useful in the later stage (because the corolla has no bright spots except for the usefulness in the early stage, so it will be put aside when it is used up)

[Yifei_]

9 minutes ago, Evelo said:

As for the "some of the designs are just too bad." Firstly, What is bad specifically? Secondly, If Wendy is not allowed to have Bad Skills, then is it acceptable for developer time to be spent on other characters who also have "Bad Skills"? (Of which everyone has some).

Regarding the other problematic parts, I have mentioned them in the "Discussion" section of my post, and here is a brief summary:

1. The adjustment of halving the healing from Blessed Sisturn III is too drastic. In facing bosses like the Celestial Champion and Clockwork Rook, this skill might even be a negative improvement. This has also been discussed in other people's posts.
2. The practicality of the Mourning Glory branch is extremely poor. MG I has no use at all for players with Lunar Affinity. The function of MG III is completely redundant with Meat Effigy, being low in utility and lacking any novelty. As for MG II, its practicality is debatable, and in my personal opinion, it is entirely useless.
3. Skills that seem to be there just to fill the numbers. For example, Elixir duration and Vengeful Ghost—I can't see the value in these two skills at all. This has also been mentioned in the replies to this post.

In the feedback, all I can do is identify the issues and bring them up. As for how different characters should be adjusted, that is up to Klei's arrangement, and I don't have the ability to interfere. However, I believe that correcting design flaws in the skill tree and creating an excellent one must be a good thing.

[Catapult 2.0]

4 hours ago, Yifei_ said:

Weakness 2: Wendy needs to face shadow creatures alone.
Skill tree improvements: The skill tree has hardly made any improvements in this regard (except for Affinity, which is available to all characters, but its impact is quite minimal). I hope this weakness is retained, meaning that Lunar Abigail should not be able to attack shadow creatures. This makes Wendy's experience of clearing the Ruins more challenging and interesting.

Yes, Wendy's most unique and character-specific drawback is that she can deal much more damage than the average character when fighting with her sister Abigail, and only as weak as Wes when she's fighting alone. Wendy still needs the shadow creatures she's had to face on her own, and that hasn't changed, and she's fighting the shadow creatures more difficult to keep her sane than the other characters, which is what we're acknowledging as a core shortcoming.
For example, in my Chinese community, where various characters use their own character traits to clean up the ruins within the first 10 days of the game, Wendy players do not choose to fight their sane shadow creatures directly compared to other characters, because it will take much more time than other characters, but to get fuel and bananas by killing shadow monkeys during riots, making banana milkshakes to maintain high sanity and avoid rioting shadows creatures。 The skill tree doesn't change that.

是的，温蒂最独特最符合角色特点的缺点应该是她在和自己的姐妹阿比盖尔一起战斗时能造成与远高于一般角色的伤害，而当她独自面对战斗时则只能和维斯一样弱。温蒂仍然需要她之前就要独立面对的shadow creatures，这点并没有改变，她用与影怪战斗的方法保持理智比其他角色更加费劲，这才是我们公认的核心缺点。
举个例子，在我所在的中文社区中，经常讨论各种角色使用自己的角色特性在游戏开局10天内清理废墟的方法，温蒂玩家相较于其他角色并不会选择直接选择与自己的理智影怪战斗，因为这会比其他角色花费多得多的时间，而是在暴动时期通过击杀暗影猴获取燃料和香蕉，制作香蕉奶昔保持高理智值并避开暴动的影怪。技能树并没有改变这些。

The rebuttal of this article is very apt for the players who speak out for Wendy, and we are often tagged with 123 of these on the forums, they don't analyze the facts, they just make us constantly prove ourselves, trying to steer our motives in an unreasonable direction to achieve their goals. But due to the locale, it is very inconvenient for us to refute, thank you for summarizing these, and I will quote this post directly when I encounter this kind of comment in the future.

这篇文章的反驳非常的贴切我们为Wendy发声的玩家所想，我们在论坛上经常被贴上123条这样的标签，他们不分析事实只是让我们不断自证，试图把我们的动机带向不合理的方向，从而达到他们的目的。但迫于语言环境，我们要想反驳非常不方便，感谢你把这些总结出来，以后遇到这类评论我会直接引用这篇帖子。

[Yifei_]

3 hours ago, Natsuki Bamboo said:

Yes, Wendy's most unique and character-specific drawback is that she can deal much more damage than the average character when fighting with her sister Abigail, and only as weak as Wes when she's fighting alone. Wendy still needs the shadow creatures she's had to face on her own, and that hasn't changed, and she's fighting the shadow creatures more difficult to keep her sane than the other characters, which is what we're acknowledging as a core shortcoming.
For example, in my Chinese community, where various characters use their own character traits to clean up the ruins within the first 10 days of the game, Wendy players do not choose to fight their sane shadow creatures directly compared to other characters, because it will take much more time than other characters, but to get fuel and bananas by killing shadow monkeys during riots, making banana milkshakes to maintain high sanity and avoid rioting shadows creatures。 The skill tree doesn't change that.

是的，温蒂最独特最符合角色特点的缺点应该是她在和自己的姐妹阿比盖尔一起战斗时能造成与远高于一般角色的伤害，而当她独自面对战斗时则只能和维斯一样弱。温蒂仍然需要她之前就要独立面对的shadow creatures，这点并没有改变，她用与影怪战斗的方法保持理智比其他角色更加费劲，这才是我们公认的核心缺点。
举个例子，在我所在的中文社区中，经常讨论各种角色使用自己的角色特性在游戏开局10天内清理废墟的方法，温蒂玩家相较于其他角色并不会选择直接选择与自己的理智影怪战斗，因为这会比其他角色花费多得多的时间，而是在暴动时期通过击杀暗影猴获取燃料和香蕉，制作香蕉奶昔保持高理智值并避开暴动的影怪。技能树并没有改变这些。

Yes, I think clearing the ruins with Wendy is all about timing, especially needing to plan what to do at each stage of the Nightmare Cycle and managing one's sanity.

One reason I feel more proficient at fighting shadow creatures than other small monsters is that I play Wendy and Wickerbottom a lot, and to some extent, I've gotten used to this disadvantage of Wendy.

对的，我觉得温蒂清远古很讲究节奏，尤其需要安排好梦魇循环的每一个阶段应该做什么，以及管理好自己的理智值。

我感觉我打影怪的熟练度远高于打其他小怪的原因之一就是我玩温蒂和奶奶玩得比较多，某种程度上我已经习惯了这个缺点了。

[DVGMedia]

5 hours ago, Evelo said:

 then is it acceptable for developer time to be spent on other characters who also have "Bad Skills"? (Of which everyone has some).

I think the main problem is that wendy really does have alot of skills that do exactly the same thing as regular items.
Thats literally the definition of a nothing perk since it doesn't provide anything unique it  just makes it  equal to what exists.

wigfrids affinity songs are bad but at least it stacks and provides a bonus affinity boost to all players around.
so players get 20% damage reduction from affinties and 15% percent damage  vs just 10 and 10

some of Wendys skills are literally here have this different version of moggles or have this different meat effigy.


 

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, DVGMedia said:

have this different version of moggles or have this different meat effigy

Also have this different dumplings (but someone think they were strong since they could stack in basket and never decay, even this dumplings need telltale heart to craft.)

[Evelo]

10 hours ago, DVGMedia said:

I think the main problem is that wendy really does have alot of skills that do exactly the same thing as regular items.

Wolfgang: Gym Mastery, Dumbbell Developer
Woodie: Hardwood hat (though it does protect against earthquake rocks), Wooden Walking Stick.
Wormwood: Monkeytails, Berrybush, Sappling, Lureplant.
Winona: Hotlight, WINbot.
Wortox: Knabsack, Twintailed Heart
Willow: Patch Up 1&2.
Walter: Most of his new pellets.

So... again. I ask,

16 hours ago, Evelo said:

then is it acceptable for developer time to be spent on other characters who also have "Bad Skills"? (Of which everyone has some).

 

[Steorra]

6 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Winona: Hotlight, WINbot

Have no idea what's wrong with these two things.

Hotlight is the only automatic light source with warmer for a whole base.

Winbot has completely different effect due to the automatic refilling.

I can't found any similar item to both of them.

[Evelo]

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Have no idea what's wrong with these two things.

Hotlight is the only automatic light source with warmer for a whole base.

Winbot has completely different effect due to the automatic refilling.

I can't found any similar item to both of them.

Hotlight is just a firepit, Winbot is the upgraded verison of the other robot. Either way you did not address my question with regard to the other 13+ items. So I ask for the third time,

16 hours ago, Evelo said:

then is it acceptable for developer time to be spent on other characters who also have "Bad Skills"? (Of which everyone has some).

 

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Hotlight is just a firepit

Hotlight would not suffer from the sanity issues and raining.

And yes you've said that winbot is the "upgraded" one. What's wrong with them?

I even have no interest to argue with the Woodie one. Obviously lack of experience as Woodie.

7 minutes ago, Evelo said:

then is it acceptable for developer time to be spent on other characters who also have "Bad Skills"? (Of which everyone has some).

And of course, Wilson first.

[Evelo]

2 minutes ago, Steorra said:

6 minutes ago, Evelo said:

then is it acceptable for developer time to be spent on other characters who also have "Bad Skills"? (Of which everyone has some).

And of course, Wilson first.

Alright, fair enough, so long as every character gets the same treatment. Don't expect many updates that add juicy content though as it's taking a lot of time with this beta.

[Steorra]

Tbh I personally would vote for a completely pause of current beta for Wilson tree reworking and controller improvement. These two things are far more meaningful than the mess we trapped here.

4 minutes ago, Evelo said:

Alright, fair enough, so long as every character gets the same treatment. Don't expect many updates that add juicy content though as it's taking a lot of time with this beta.

See above.

And again. Not every argument you gave is reasonable. So the "every character" won't work.

Keep Woodie away he is perfect enough. Don't bother us.

[DVGMedia]

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

Wolfgang: Gym Mastery, Dumbbell Developer
Woodie: Hardwood hat (though it does protect against earthquake rocks), Wooden Walking Stick.
Wormwood: Monkeytails, Berrybush, Sappling, Lureplant.
Winona: Hotlight, WINbot.
Wortox: Knabsack, Twintailed Heart
Willow: Patch Up 1&2.
Walter: Most of his new pellets.

So... again. I ask,

 

thing is though thats kind of what i want for wendy.

I want more potions I want the shroud back with a new ability.
each of those are pretty useful in their own merits.
The gym mastery however is like pointless. i  can give you that.

Patch up is great though I love patch up. epspecially when have planar bernie  2 hp a second it basically creates an auto nightmare fuel farm for willow.

And walter is being fixed up

The wormwood ones are all part of mass production that worm can do he is the only one that can make those things from himself. and being self sufficent.
 

 

1 hour ago, Evelo said:

Alright, fair enough, so long as every character gets the same treatment. Don't expect many updates that add juicy content though as it's taking a lot of time with this beta.

I think every character should have a look through after all the trees are done since  some really did get the short end of the stick.
Thats kind of what happens when there is strange development processes.
But there is perks that people think are useless but they really are useful.

[Yifei_]

2 hours ago, Evelo said:

Wolfgang: Gym Mastery, Dumbbell Developer
Woodie: Hardwood hat (though it does protect against earthquake rocks), Wooden Walking Stick.
Wormwood: Monkeytails, Berrybush, Sappling, Lureplant.
Winona: Hotlight, WINbot.
Wortox: Knabsack, Twintailed Heart
Willow: Patch Up 1&2.
Walter: Most of his new pellets.

I can briefly mention the skill trees that I think have issues (although it's a bit off-topic):
 

Spoiler

Wormwood: As the character in DST most proficient in agriculture, Wormwood's own benefits from farming are the least - all the benefits go to the team. Wormwood doesn't need food to restore sanity as much, nor can Wormwood restore health from food. This "selfless" design... I don't like it.

Wolfgang: The skill tree further exaggerates his incredible stats, making the already boring gameplay even more boring. And the Mighty Gym branch... it's a joke.

Wigfrid: Beefalo taming may fit Wigfrid's character background, but it completely deviates from the actual game. Why give up Wigfrid's inherent 0.25 defense and 1.25 damage multiplier to use beefalo for combat?

Wilson: The 7 skill points for the torch are not only completely useless but also mislead new players from making a lantern in time, which is the worst and most unreasonable skill I've seen. The only use of gem synthesis in the Alchemy branch is when my friend and I activate the Archive for the Celestial Champion's speedrun preparation on the third day during a multiplayer speedrun...

Additionally, Winona's Hotlight and WINbot are my two favorite skills because they significantly improve the quality of life and consume very few skill points. Woodie's Hardwood Hat and Wooden Walking Stick are quite practical and cost-effective in the first autumn, and I think the first autumn is quite important.

I really hope that these problematic skill trees can be modified, but I am just a player, not a developer. Politely and constructively providing feedback on skill tree issues is more of a right than an obligation. The reason why I basically only provided feedback for Wendy's skill tree issues is that more than half of my game time was spent playing Wendy, and I am most familiar with this character, able to provide feedback that I think fits the actual game to Klei. For other characters, on the one hand, I don't have as rich game experience as Wendy, and on the other hand, my own energy is not sufficient to test and write suggestions for each character.

Whether the skill trees of other characters need to be modified and whether Klei needs to spend enough amount of effort on each character is Klei's business, and I hope it will not be transformed into contradictions within the player community. My personal view is that Klei should spend enough time to polish and refine each character, providing an interesting and excellent skill tree for all players.

[DaDa_waw]

When suggestions arise, some people bury their heads in the sand. When suggestions are ignored, they raise their heads and shout, "They just want Wendy to become a Titan Killer!!!!! Only I want Wendy to be good QAQ, I'm a Wendy fan

On 1/26/2025 at 11:09 AM, Yifei_ said:

Argument 3: Wendy's skill tree has completely erased her weaknesses.

Confused, can this also be used as an argument that each previous skill tree has more or less compensated for or even addressed its shortcomings? I think it's not very common for Wormwood to sunbathe and regain blood, Woodie to have a full moon under control, Willow to no longer burn items, and so on?

[Debruh]

1 hour ago, DaDa_waw said:

Wormwood to sunbathe and regain blood, Woodie to have a full moon under control

Eh, Wormwood has too bloom through fertilizer. Which is how he has always has healed.

Depending on the type, he either heals instantly, over time, or through regeneration when he's bloomed. Which is in line with how he has always healed. So his downside wasn't removed.

To not acknowledge the fact that Woodie's curse made him very annoying to play if a Wickerbottom wanted full moons or during the lunar storms. As well as the fact that he still can't use items during his transformations and is vulnerable when detransforming, is dishonest imo. (Also shadow wrangler is just better)

Willow's weakness was 'hehe I griefed', not that good of an idea to keep

[DaDa_waw]

51 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Eh, Wormwood has too bloom through fertilizer. Which is how he has always has healed.

Depending on the type, he either heals instantly, over time, or through regeneration when he's bloomed. Which is in line with how he has always healed.

To not acknowledge the fact that Woodie's curse made him very annoying to play if a Wickerbottom wanted full moons or during the lunar storms. As well as the fact that he still can't use items during his transformations and is vulnerable when detransforming, is dishonest imo. (Also shadow wrangler is just better)

Willow's weakness was 'hehe I griefed', not that good of an idea to keep

So, Wendy's weakness is her attack coefficient of 0.75, and I don't think the skill tree has eliminated this.
Improving Abigail's survival ability is consistent with the repair method you mentioned.

[Yifei_]

17 hours ago, Shining Galaxy said:

This post refutes the viewpoints held by many on the forum. Strangely, those who hold these three opinions and constantly use them to attack Wendy mains have not come here to debate. Instead, they keep spreading gaslighting effects in other threads, as if they lack sufficient evidence to support their claims. It seems they resort to repeating their lies a hundred times until their falsehoods overshadow the truth.

I feel that this phenomenon seems to be more evident recently.