not panflute neutral skills

[Echsrick]

maybe this is allready too late, but the thing is, pretty much everyone agrees that the charme carmine or what its called is not good but no one seems to find a replacemend for it, why? i think its because its because of panflute, but what if neutral was not stuck with only the panflute? wich alsol means you dont have to first get the middle neutral skill to get the left and right ones but can just go all 3 neutrals in any order you want to

first of all the free use panflute skill sould stay as is

but the left and right one get replaced by this

on the left wortox gets to be able to see the life force of other creatures, be it players, random creatures, even bosse.....as long said creatures even have a soul to begin with

on the right wortox gets to use pomegranates, or rather a "gun" like thing to be able to shoot the pomegranates, alternative he uses up souls for the damage instead, or other kind of prankster like things, like rotten eggs, butter, garlic, fire needles, charogoal, snowballs, and maybe some other things, with some random effects

and again, no need to buy the middle point first, i dont think that would make much sense and just restricts wortox way too much as allready is

[Frashaw27]

This is a real throwing the baby out with the bathwater mentality. Not only is the left and rights ones more of a naughty and nice skill respectively, they're also just a lot more random. The right one is kinda moot since there is already methods of dealing damage with souls but more importantly just feel like a very out of place addition. The left one is neat but it doesn't really provide much use that a simple chat message wouldn't do with the exception of maybe a beefalo. I seen that suggestion a lot but I just never understood why it was so important when a quick "i need heals message" would suffice and save you the point for much greater things. 

2 hours ago, Echsrick said:

no one seems to find a replacemend for it

A) Enemies that fall asleep take 50% longer to wake up

B) Boss' Sleep Resistance goes up slower when caused by Wortox

c) When woken up, Enemies will enter a groggy state for 5 seconds where thir attack and movement speed is halved

It generally isn't that hard.

[ApoIIo]

8 hours ago, Frashaw27 said:

A) Enemies that fall asleep take 50% longer to wake up

B) Boss' Sleep Resistance goes up slower when caused by Wortox

c) When woken up, Enemies will enter a groggy state for 5 seconds where thir attack and movement speed is halved

It generally isn't that hard.

These ideas are terrible. Add all three at once in a single still and they're still not good.

[Hollow soul 3]

I threw it out as a random suggestion, but a lantern fueled with souls might be cool, especially if it gave some kind of minor debuff or slow healing in the light radius

[asdsaax]

Tbh I think Pleasant Pastorale was a pretty generous gift from Klei and I'm okay with Cloudy Carmen being a filler 

But if I really had to add anything? Then I would probably give a free play for multiple flutes per day

It would cost inventory slots and at least 1 upgraded perk which is a big deal because budget for offensive abilities is really tight, but would serve as very cool utility fantasy for Wortox players that go full support/neutral

Though personally I would rather have longer waking up animation than straight up ignoring the player because it's more annoying than helpful due to how monsters behave

but the earlier idea for 3+ souls as peak upgrade would be cool too

[Dingle]

15 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

Tbh I think Pleasant Pastorale was a pretty generous gift from Klei and I'm okay with Cloudy Carmen being a filler 

It's a capstone at the top of the Neutral section instead of a prereq filler, though.

13 hours ago, Echsrick said:

maybe this is allready too late, but the thing is, pretty much everyone agrees that the charme carmine or what its called is not good but no one seems to find a replacemend for it, why? i think its because its because of panflute, but what if neutral was not stuck with only the panflute? wich alsol means you dont have to first get the middle neutral skill to get the left and right ones but can just go all 3 neutrals in any order you want to

first of all the free use panflute skill sould stay as is

but the left and right one get replaced by this

on the left wortox gets to be able to see the life force of other creatures, be it players, random creatures, even bosse.....as long said creatures even have a soul to begin with

on the right wortox gets to use pomegranates, or rather a "gun" like thing to be able to shoot the pomegranates, alternative he uses up souls for the damage instead, or other kind of prankster like things, like rotten eggs, butter, garlic, fire needles, charogoal, snowballs, and maybe some other things, with some random effects

and again, no need to buy the middle point first, i dont think that would make much sense and just restricts wortox way too much as allready is

I still kind of like the idea of Neutral being all pan flute related. I could go for non pan flute ones too, though.

Really, anything but Cloudy Carmine.

I have a bunch of ideas for a Cloudy Carmine replacement in this thread:

 

[asdsaax]

1 minute ago, Dingle said:

t's a capstone at the top of the Neutral section instead of a prereq filler, though.

What? I'm pretty sure currently you can pick either Pastorale OR Carmen and the only thing stopping you from picking either is initial free use per day skill

Therefore it is a non-obligatory filler with objectively inferior effect you can skip

I believe carmen is kept weak because Klei gave a lot of value to Pleasant Pastorale that used to be just... longer sleep effect and that's it

because why else would they settle down for the current state of neutral perks?

[Dingle]

7 minutes ago, asdsaax said:

What? I'm pretty sure currently you can pick either Pastorale OR Carmen and the only thing stopping you from picking either is initial free use per day skill

Therefore it is a non-obligatory filler with objectively inferior effect you can skip

I believe carmen is kept weak because Klei gave a lot of value to Pleasant Pastorale that used to be just... longer sleep effect and that's it

because why else would they settle down for the current state of neutral perks?

That doesn't make any sense design wise to have weak filler at the top of a skill tree.

If you have a weak filler at the top of a skill tree, the obvious thing to do is skip it. It wouldn't make much difference if the devs just deleted Carmine and replaced it with an empty square that did nothing. About the same amount of people would choose it.

As to why settle down for the current state: they already changed it before and haven't looked at it again yet, is my guess. BOTH top neutral perks used to be Cloudy Carmine, split in half. The new Carmine is the two old perks, merged. The problem is that this just gives you two garbage perks for the price of one.

[Echsrick]

the reason why i came up with this is because only panflute seems a bit boring, and i dont think they lean too much into nice or naughty, by that logic i must ask how it is nice for wortox to teleport even more around or how is it naughty for wortox to make a decoy on hostile creatures?

but i guess we could still have the 3 pan flutes and 2 new ones, maybe something like this

[asdsaax]

6 minutes ago, Dingle said:

That doesn't make any sense design wise to have weak filler at the top of a skill tree.

If you have a weak filler at the top of a skill tree, the obvious thing to do is skip it. It wouldn't make much difference if the devs just deleted Carmine and replaced it with an empty square that did nothing. About the same amount of people would choose it.

As to why settle down for the current state: they already changed it before and haven't looked at it again yet, is my guess. BOTH top neutral perks used to be Cloudy Carmine, split in half. The new Carmine is the two old perks, merged. The problem is that this just gives you two garbage perks for the price of one.

I mean true that's why I dropped my own suggestion and explained why extras for that skill wouldn't be too bad

Always a wink for Klei to not settle down for a empty spaces I guess

[Dingle]

24 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

the reason why i came up with this is because only panflute seems a bit boring, and i dont think they lean too much into nice or naughty, by that logic i must ask how it is nice for wortox to teleport even more around or how is it naughty for wortox to make a decoy on hostile creatures?

but i guess we could still have the 3 pan flutes and 2 new ones, maybe something like this

Liking for how it shows how more perks could fit.

Also because this is almost exactly how I draw mockup doodles.

[Echsrick]

any other...hypothetical ideas that could have worked out for neutral skills either be it replacing the left and right panflute ones or just 2 new ones to fit in there?