Walter's Skill Tree is a result of the slingshot being misunderstood

[Giovirtual79]

Hello everyone, it's me again. Today, I wanted to talk about another character in this update that also has issues regarding their skill tree. I think enough has been said about Wendy that I don't really need to post anything more about her other than to reply on other people's posts. However, I still wanted to cover Walter's skill tree because I really reflected on Walter as a character and it made me realize that a lot of the skills geared towards the slingshot are a result of a misunderstanding about how to use the slingshot. The main source of inspiration for this post is not only people's posts on this forum about post, but also a video made by Lardee about Walter's skill tree:

Honestly, my feeling about Walter are the same as everyone else's feelings on Walter, at least in terms of solo worlds. I would get bored of playing Walter extremely quickly because of the fact that his gameplay is just boring. Originally, Walter's slingshot was bad because of how impractical it is in most fights, often being worse than if you were to fight without it. Not only that, but the alternative rounds were not worth crafting or using, as they were either too expensive or not very good. I feel like this outcry was the primary reason why 70% of the skill tree is dedicated to fixing the slingshot rather than actually fleshing out Walter as a character. As I mentioned in other replies, Klei is very infamous for using skill trees to fix issues rather than just fixing the issues outright. However, in doing so, a new problem was formed as a consequence of this skill tree. Now, rather than Walter's slingshot being so bad it's not worth using, it's now so boring you end up quitting the game before getting deep into a run. With the skill tree, the best way to play Walter revolves around hitting the bosses with a ton of slow down debuffs, use your heavy hitting ammo from a far distance on the boss, run away using Woby if the bosses get to close, reapply debuffs to the boss once they begin to disappear, and repeat the process. This makes a lot of the fights in this game very trivial and does make the slingshot usable, but it promotes a very unengaging playstyle for the character. If this was just a portion of his skill tree, I don't think this would get nearly as much backlash as it did. However, because this is pretty much his entire skill tree save for the Woby branch, it makes Walter's skill tree feel extremely hollow. It's especially weird because, while I do hate playing Walter in solo worlds, I do think Walter can be an extremely fun character with a team. This discrepancy alongside Lardee's video kinda made me reflect on Walter as a character and why this skill tree failed. After reflection on his stats, his skills, his strengths, weaknesses, perks, and crafts, it make me come to a conclusion to Walter that I feel explained both why this skill tree failed and also why the original slingshot itself was so impractical in solo fights.

Walter is supposed to be a support character, not a fighter

Now, I know this might seem obvious to some people, but I do think the reason it might not be obvious to most is because of the character in DST. 

Looking at the roster of DST, most of the character in said roster have skills and abilities that allow them to perform fine in both solo worlds and co-op worlds. Sure, some characters have ranging levels of difficulty when picked, but they still have perks that allow them to still hold their own in a solo world. A good example of this is Wormwood, who is much riskier to play due to his inability to heal from food. However, his blooming mechanic and his speed boost tied to it gives him a chance in boss fights. Similarly, Warly's food timer makes it hard to gain benefits from certain dishes if used too often. However, his exclusive dishes and spices can allow him to deal massive damage against all of the bosses in the constant. With Walter, other than his sanity perks, a lot of his perks don't really lend themselves well into a solo world, especially if you plan to speed run the bosses in said world. The biggest thing that just doesn't work in a solo world is the slingshot, which is usually cast aside early in favor for the normal kiting method. I think this is why Walter has such a negative reputation and is the least picked character in DST by far. Compared to other characters who are fun in both solo and co-op worlds, Walter perks make him feel unfun in solo worlds, especially since one of the major part of his kit is unusable. However, while he does struggle in solo worlds, a lot of his perks are boosted drastically in co-op worlds and that extends to the slingshot. You see, one of the downsides of Walter is the fact that taking damage will reduce his sanity. This sanity drain scales with the amount of damage he takes and he will have a passive sanity drain when his health dips below a certain threshold. This can be incredibly bad for Walter, as this means he may go insane and be forced to deal with nightmare creatures on top of the enemy he's up against. The slingshot fixes this issue as it allows him to fight at a range, however being alone means you are the only target. With a team, however, it allows Walter to deal chip damage to the boss without worrying about the boss swapping aggro to Walter, since there is another player closer to the boss and dealing more damage at a time. Damage isn't the only thing the slingshot is good for, though, as you also have rounds that allows you to deaggro enemies, slow them down, or freeze them. While these rounds are pretty bad in a solo world, these rounds can be incredibly helpful in co-op worlds. Whether it be to get an enemy off a teammate's back or help take a breather in a fight, these rounds could be very valuable in a solo world. The new skill tree also helps boost this fact as well, giving Walter newer slowdown rounds, AOE rounds, and more damage dealing rounds. This will especially be helpful in dealing with more annoying fights like Bee Queen or Fuelweaver, as Walter will have a cheap ability to take out their minions. With the buffs to the slow rounds on top of the new sticky rounds, it can also allow teammates to have an easier time kiting certain bosses. Additionally, Walter can set up a poor man's Krampus Sack farm using his slingshot via a scarecrow, bird hat, and gold rounds. This set up can allow you to provide both food, charcoal, monster meat, and the chance for a Krampus Sack alongside allowing you to generate more gold rounds to use. The slingshot also makes doing hunts or gaining the aggro of certain mobs a lot easier and without the need of a boomerang, especially mobs with a high movement speed like Koalefants and Volt Goats. So while the slingshot is a very bad item to use in solo worlds, it becomes an incredible asset in worlds with other players and allows Walter to stand a better chance than in worlds where he is alone. Additionally, his portable tent is another reason why I feel Walter is a support character.

While Walter is the only character who can make these tents, they can be given to other players in your server. Other players are also allowed to take down the tents whenever they want and deploy them whenever they want.

These tent rolls can be very good as on the go sanity and healing stations if you have the food to replenish that hunger. Additionally, they can help protect you from darkness, especially if you are in a pinch without light. It also synergizes well with Wormwood, as he now gains a way to gain health back without the need to waste a valuable healing item. I feel like the tent is a heavily underrated part about Walter's kit and it's a shame it didn't get expanded on in the skill tree. Another cool support aspect about Walter is both the campfire stories and Big Woby. The campfire story is very self explanatory, it provides a sanity aura that other players can benefit from and can even help counter the passive sanity drain from dusk and night. However, what makes Big Woby so good in co-op play is both the ability to map out the world and carry heavy objects. Having a character who can do both, give maps to the team given you want to make a cartography desk, and carry the marble pieces or alters while your team does other objectives is such a valuable time save. You can essentially rush the shadow pieces as Walter if you ware prepared enough while also focus on doing other tasks while the Walter moves the 

Now, obviously, not everything Walter has in his kit is towards the team. His pioneer hat, sanity gain from tree, and Woby's storage and speed only really benefits Walter. However, I feel like this all highlights Walter's support role in a team, one that is very bad if doing things alone. I think this is why Walter's skill tree failed: In trying to fix the slingshot's issues, they ultimately push Walter away from that support role and away from those wilderness and scout traits that make Walter fun to play. It makes Walter playstyle feel cowardly when it felt more geared towards trust in cooperation. 

So how do you go about fixing it? Well, if I'm being honest, I feel like the best course of action would be to do what they did with Wendy's skill tree and completely revamp the tree. Additionally, I think sectioning the skill tree in a similar fashion to Wigfrid's skill tree can allow you to be able to work out Walter's skills much better and have most of the tree rely on slingshot skills.


You can have 4 branches to this tree: Slingshot, Woby, Scouting, and Affinity. Additionally, and I know it's a controversial topic with Wendy's skill tree, but I think it would be for the best that you would need to combine a few of the slingshot skills together. A lot of the quality of life in these skills are really good and I wouldn't trade it for the world, but I feel the amount of points you need to spend for all the slingshot perks you want is too much. Given Walter has 2 skill slots (not counting the affinity skills) and 14 of those skills are for the slingshot is absurd. Because of that, I feel combining certain skills together wouldn't be a bad idea. How I'd do it is combining the slingshot related skills so it'd fill 7-8 slots, keep all the Woby slots the same (6),and then have the 6-7 slots dedicated to scout skills. This would better diversify Walter's skills and allow you to pick and choose more skills rather than lock in on the slingshot. Maybe you could make a skill to where Hunts are much faster. Maybe allow Walter to increase the chance of finding a certain animal in a hunt, allowing him to find Vargs for farms or Steel Wool for War Saddles much easier for the team. Maybe allow Walter to gain greater yields when foraging or allow Walter to craft alternative healing sources for the team. You could have a skill that allows multiple players to sleep in the same tent roll or allow stories told by Walter to do different effects, whether it be that the sanity gain lingers even after the story ends or gives the team a passive buff, like more efficiency when working. You could even give Walter a skill that grants a funny mechanic if Walter eats a tall-bird egg or glommer goop. The possibilities are endless as to what you can do for Walter's skill tree and how you can improve it. However, as it stands, I feel like the slingshot skills are really holding back Walter's true potential and it's because of how it's viewed. Rather than being viewed as a support tool, it was viewed as a weapon and I feel Klei sorta jumped the gun trying to make it a viable weapon. I hope Klei does change Walter's skill tree and improves it like they have with Wendy and Wortox. Walter can be a fun character if played to his strengths. However, this skill tree sorta saps the fun aspects out of Walter and I feel that's sad to see.

Regardless, thank you for those who read this rant about Walter. Tell me what you guys think in the replies. I hope this was an interesting read and I hope you all have a good day.

[Dingle]

I like the idea of consolidating his slingshot perks down, then adding a scouting/outdoorsman section.

One thing that's really missing from this is discussion about his bee allergy, and how he should get an Allergy section for his skill tree. I'm still working on a post about this, but I've been waiting on artist commissions to mock up a lot of Allergy ideas.

[Giovirtual79]

I'm not gonna lie, I forgot that is even a thing, especially with everyone showing clips of him effortlessly killing BQ. Honestly, I can see that being in an alternative healing tab that helps with his allergies as well, though only temporaty. Maybe he could also gain the ability to make a sort of bug spray to help against bees, grumbles, and mosquitos, but not as effective on BQ. I feel like the fact that he has a lot of potential with wilderness skills makes it even more sad that most of his current tree is just slingshot skills

 

[Walrusst]

One thing I've sort of thought about is that its weird that walter can cook with willows lighter but doesn't have a tool of his own he can use for pocket cooking. I suggested a stove item that works for drying in the past, but like, even a skill for cooking on torches would go a way to highlighting the fun of nomadic utility walter.

Still, I more or less want some mobile utility with possibly a foraging focused set of skills so in less combat focused multiplayer servers his abilities as a high volume trucker that's kinda fast who doesn't need to stay in base as much as the others really shine through since in a resource starved mp game his abilities have the power to shine so much more.

I've seen other people suggest being able to get crits on wild goods that give bonus resources like wild (Non planted,) berries and stuff, I've suggested being able to use small woby as a fishing aid with agility, or being able to use big woby as a shovel with dig training. It would pay some respect to this game as something other then purely a bossrush speedrun. Since even if kleis direction is for more mmo-esque fighting, characters utility should still pay homage to the survival game part of the game.

For the combat stuff.

I'm less negative on the sling shot as a damage source because if they are able to keep the focus on manually aimed skills that are difficult to kite with while theres lag (Like the scrapshot,) fighting with it takes comparable focus to using another weapon anyhow. So long as well, the CC ammos aren't so cheap the games braindead the moment you craft two stacks of ammo. Its basically a balancing act of not being given too much range or CC relative to your damage so there is still gameplay and positioning to using his tools.

In recent history, pretty much all other characters have mutated into damage dealers or tanks in some way. So wanting something that different has a lot of heart to it, but it doesn't seem to fit with the growing reliance of the game on increasingly bombastic bossfights as a mean of gatekeeping the harder survival events. Woody the resource guy now has a moose-souls minigame when he eats an idol. Wormwood the farmers a walking bomb that can turn a cow into a walking repeating nuke. Willow... Well... Willow needs everyone to burn in her gameplan now.

As much as Walter becoming more archer like seems perplexing, so long as it can be tuned to not be as braindead it more or less seems to follow the direction the reworks and the whole games been taking.

Pretty much the only character who hasn't been converging on some combat role is Wilson, and even he largely revolves around skills that make the speedrunning resources easier to get, making him basically a key to more fighting.

In the short term, this might be hella problematic, but if the bossfights are going to improve in quality while growing in number rapidly its probably within kleis long term plan to expand the combat kits of most characters. The key thing is. Don't land Walter in an area where he is braindead and combat only serving this goal. Since stunlocking enemies that can't walk or fight you isn't interesting like people are worried about.

[kroban]

I dont understand this idea that "slingshot is boring to use" and it honestly makes me really salty. As a Walter main (out of the 4k hours I have I played like 2k+ as him) even before his skill tree, slingshot was fun to use, although previous to the skill tree it served more as a support weapon with freeze/slows/stunlock with tentacles + gestalts for playing a hybrid Walter. Now it does this even better, with more support things, but you can also use it as a solid ranged damage dealer too.

Lardee's video was made before Klei decided to make bosses inmune to stuns with the slingshot. Have you actually tried to fight some bosses now or you are just basing all your opinions on this video? Because now you still need to kite a lot even while at range, slows come at the cost of having to keep them always active during the fight, and the variety of ammo and special attacks, makes the fights with the slingshot way more interesting than other characters just pressing F with a Dark Sword/ Hambat. The slingshot became the weapon with the most utility, versatility, and sustained damage in the entire game. Try to fight Dragonfly or Bee Queen without using Icker rounds (which is some end-game thing the mayority of the players haven't even reached yet) and tell me how these fights are more boring as Walter than some Wolfgang constantly stunlocking DF with a Dark Sword, Maxwell spamming walls, Willow spamming firelauncher, Wendy pressing F on an ornery with Abi on her side, or most characters just holding F at melee while kiting a little.

6 hours ago, Giovirtual79 said:

Walter is supposed to be a support character, not a fighter

No, Walter is supposed to be both, a fighter that also brings support on combat mostly, no character should be treated as a "trash solo but good support in multiplayer", because all of them should be able to be played as completely solo and have things for both scenarios (many people play solo, and theres also people in multiplayer that don't do everything as a group). Walter skill tree aimed exactly to this, like I said, he now has an insane amount of different ammos and things for different scenarios that makes him both a solid fighter for solo AND a solid support for multiplayer.

6 hours ago, Giovirtual79 said:

I think this is why Walter's skill tree failed: In trying to fix the slingshot's issues, they ultimately push Walter away from that support role and away from those wilderness and scout traits that make Walter fun to play.

This feels like an old rant. Again, are you really testing the skill tree and paying attention to beta patches or just writing out of a video from a guy that never played Walter other than for a couple hours and with console cheats? Klei did said on last beta update that they will give Woby more utility things, and also add a branch dedicated to scout/camping stuff, so the whole "skill tree is only slingshot" will kind of fall apart.

And let me tell you, the reason why Walter was treated so poorly by the community for years, ever since he was added, was mostly because of his "trash slingshot DPS". In multiplayer no one cared about his storytelling, support tents (other than Wormwoods), "chip" damage at range, slows, or freeze before, because he was "the trashy ranged dps". And again, Im saying this as a Walter main that played him for hundreds of hours, and had to face many times other players with the "why are you playing with that trashy ranged perk soup? he does less damage than Wes and loses all sanity on 1 hit lul", even while I was spamming those "amazing support tents" on bases, slowing/freezing bosses, etc.

Klei did the best thing by focusing almost entirely on the slingshot, because its Walter's main trait. And by focusing on it they gave him the best "support" things ever. He became a serious damage dealer at range, while also gaining new ammo with electric damage, AOE damage/effects, better slows, DoT damage, special attacks, and even a planar damage buff for end-game multiplayer. He literally became one of the funniest characters to play as support now if you want to, I really don't understand where this whole "Klei pushed away his support role" comes from.

4 hours ago, Dingle said:

One thing that's really missing from this is discussion about his bee allergy, and how he should get an Allergy section for his skill tree

Why? Theres only 3 bee mobs in the game, that would be so unnecesary. The allergy exists as a drawback that makes you be more careful of hits from bees, but it doesn't need tweaks at all. If anything I would say the slingshot perks already solves that, you can kill Bee Queen easily by kiting her with Woby, without receiving many hits, with moonglass and slow-rounds aoe ammo. And even if you get  hit by BQ or his grumbees you cut a lot of the damage with a marble suit + pioneer hat

[EctoPlaza]

15 minutes ago, kroban said:

I dont understand this idea that "slingshot is boring to use" and it honestly makes me really salty. As a Walter main (out of the 4k hours I have I played like 2k+ as him) even before his skill tree, slingshot was fun to use, although previous to the skill tree it served more as a support weapon with freeze/slows/stunlock with tentacles + gestalts for playing a hybrid Walter. Now it does this even better, with more support things, but you can also use it as a solid ranged damage dealer too.

Lardee's video was made before Klei decided to make bosses inmune to stuns with the slingshot. Have you actually tried to fight some bosses now or you are just basing all your opinions on this video? Because now you still need to kite a lot even while at range, slows come at the cost of having to keep them always active during the fight, and the variety of ammo and special attacks, makes the fights with the slingshot way more interesting than other characters just pressing F with a Dark Sword/ Hambat. The slingshot became the weapon with the most utility, versatility, and sustained damage in the entire game. Try to fight Dragonfly or Bee Queen without using Icker rounds (which is some end-game thing the mayority of the players haven't even reached yet) and tell me how these fights are more boring as Walter than some Wolfgang constantly stunlocking DF with a Dark Sword, Maxwell spamming walls, Willow spamming firelauncher, Wendy pressing F on an ornery with Abi on her side, or most characters just holding F at melee while kiting a little.

No, Walter is supposed to be both, a fighter that also brings support on combat mostly, no character should be treated as a "trash solo but good support in multiplayer", because all of them should be able to be played as completely solo and have things for both scenarios (many people play solo, and theres also people in multiplayer that don't do everything as a group). Walter skill tree aimed exactly to this, like I said, he now has an insane amount of different ammos and things for different scenarios that makes him both a solid fighter for solo AND a solid support for multiplayer.

This feels like an old rant. Again, are you really testing the skill tree and paying attention to beta patches or just writing out of a video from a guy that never played Walter other than for a couple hours and with console cheats? Klei did said on last beta update that they will give Woby more utility things, and also add a branch dedicated to scout/camping stuff, so the whole "skill tree is only slingshot" will kind of fall apart.

And let me tell you, the reason of why Walter was treated so poorly by the community for years, ever since he was added, was mostly because of his low DPS. In multiplayer no one cared about his support tents (other than Wormwoods), "chip" damage at range, slows, or freeze before. And again, Im saying this as a Walter main that played him for hundreds of hours, and had to face many times other players asking me "why are you playing with that trashy ranged? he does less damage than Wes and loses all sanity on 1 hit lul", even while I was spamming those "amazing support tents" on bases, slowing bosses, etc.

Klei did the best thing by focusing almost entirely on the slingshot, because its Walter's main trait. And by focusing on it they gave him the best "support" things ever. He became a serious damage dealer at range, while also gaining new ammo with specialized damage, AOE damage/effects, slows, DoT damage, special attacks, and even a planar damage buff for end-game. He literally became one of the funniest characters to play as support now if you want to, I really don't understand where this whole "Klei pushed away his support role" comes from.

Why? Theres only 3 "bee" mobs in the game, that would be so unnecesary. The allergy exists as a drawback that makes you be more careful of hits from bees, but it doesn't need tweaks at all. If anything I would say the slingshot perks already solves that, you can kill Bee Queen easily by kiting her, without receiving hits, with moonglass and slow-rounds aoe ammo.

A shame really, when people take the words of content creators as gospel, when neither has any idea what they are talking about. 

[Well-met]

I agree with kroban and I don't understand this "hold F" complaint stuff.

holding f is literally the foundation of dont starve its how every weapon works and its not going to change.

If you make the sling shot manually aimable then its going to be harder, less efficient and a significant DPS reduction for no reason other than "its not F!"

[Dingle]

26 minutes ago, kroban said:

Why? Theres only 3 "bee" mobs in the game, that would be so unnecesary. The allergy exists as a drawback that makes you be more careful of hits from bees, but it doesn't need tweaks at all. If anything I would say the slingshot perks already solves that, you can kill Bee Queen easily by kiting her, without receiving hits, with moonglass and slow-rounds aoe ammo.

You'll see when I make a post for my idea on the Allergen branch of his skill tree, that can unlock more allergies, and turn his allergies into a tool with powerful risks and rewards.

[Walrusst]

27 minutes ago, Well-met said:

I agree with kroban and I don't understand this "hold F" complaint stuff.

holding f is literally the foundation of dont starve its how every weapon works and its not going to change.

If you make the sling shot manually aimable then its going to be harder, less efficient and a significant DPS reduction for no reason other than "its not F!"

One of the frames gave him a huge damage boost for not holding f and aiming though....
Unironically halves his ammo use if you use it right. Its incredible.

[Radicaljoe]

1 hour ago, Walrusst said:

One of the frames gave him a huge damage boost for not holding f and aiming though....
Unironically halves his ammo use if you use it right. Its incredible.

Yeah but doesn't it fire nearly twice as slowly because it takes a full drawback? So in total you're not gonna actually have an increase in damage, or one so insignificant that you'd be safer to guarantee the 2 auto aimed shots instead of accidentally missing with your personal aim.

[Walrusst]

21 minutes ago, Radicaljoe said:

Yeah but doesn't it fire nearly twice as slowly because it takes a full drawback? So in total you're not gonna actually have an increase in damage, or one so insignificant that you'd be safer to guarantee the 2 auto aimed shots instead of accidentally missing with your personal aim.

Situational really because some targets take motherloads of ammo to bring down. People sometimes use hambats, beefalos, and moose when the darksword cost for a target is downright depressing.
So loosing like 15% DPS for halfing the ammo cost of a kill can be pretty nice.

Its great fun, it saves ammo when you can oneshot certain targets, it does good damage, it extends your range, and if you use a windup sling which fires faster from a stationary position after firing for a while a charged shot fully spools your sling to its fastest rate of fire in case you need to burn through a ton of ammo. Its got enough going for it that it feels like a complementary tool to the kit.

As an element, its a pretty welcome addition that makes setup attacks a more interesting overall, and sometimes having an extra extended range means for picking my targets can be useful when trying to pick off a fast wounded target in a pack of enemies. So like, I appreciate having so much put into giving me a choice that isn't a pure F hold.

[Giovirtual79]

5 hours ago, kroban said:

I dont understand this idea that "slingshot is boring to use" and it honestly makes me really salty. As a Walter main (out of the 4k hours I have I played like 2k+ as him) even before his skill tree, slingshot was fun to use, although previous to the skill tree it served more as a support weapon with freeze/slows/stunlock with tentacles + gestalts for playing a hybrid Walter. Now it does this even better, with more support things, but you can also use it as a solid ranged damage dealer too.

Lardee's video was made before Klei decided to make bosses inmune to stuns with the slingshot. Have you actually tried to fight some bosses now or you are just basing all your opinions on this video? Because now you still need to kite a lot even while at range, slows come at the cost of having to keep them always active during the fight, and the variety of ammo and special attacks, makes the fights with the slingshot way more interesting than other characters just pressing F with a Dark Sword/ Hambat. The slingshot became the weapon with the most utility, versatility, and sustained damage in the entire game. Try to fight Dragonfly or Bee Queen without using Icker rounds (which is some end-game thing the mayority of the players haven't even reached yet) and tell me how these fights are more boring as Walter than some Wolfgang constantly stunlocking DF with a Dark Sword, Maxwell spamming walls, Willow spamming firelauncher, Wendy pressing F on an ornery with Abi on her side, or most characters just holding F at melee while kiting a little.

My post was not meant to detail strictly my thoughts on Walter's skill tree. It was supposed to detail why I felt the community felt this skill tree was a failure. Even going back to past posts, you can see a lot of people were dissatisfied with Walter's skill tree and you can still see people dissatisfied with it to this day. Reading the posts, I came to the conclusion that it's because Klei focused it solely on Walter's slingshot rather than all the parts to do with Walter's kit, like they've done with the other characters. They were so focused on fixing the slingshot to the community, they made no skills that play into his other skills or highlight his character as a boy scout. I already stated that I find Walter a lot of fun in group setting, but this change also greatly helps his solo survival. That is a good thing, the problem is it took 14 of 20 available slots to accomplish that. I am glad you also understand that Walter is really good in a team setting and it allows his perks to shine.

 

5 hours ago, kroban said:

Lardee's video was made before Klei decided to make bosses inmune to stuns with the slingshot. Have you actually tried to fight some bosses now or you are just basing all your opinions on this video? Because now you still need to kite a lot even while at range, slows come at the cost of having to keep them always active during the fight, and the variety of ammo and special attacks, makes the fights with the slingshot way more interesting than other characters just pressing F with a Dark Sword/ Hambat. The slingshot became the weapon with the most utility, versatility, and sustained damage in the entire game. Try to fight Dragonfly or Bee Queen without using Icker rounds (which is some end-game thing the mayority of the players haven't even reached yet) and tell me how these fights are more boring as Walter than some Wolfgang constantly stunlocking DF with a Dark Sword, Maxwell spamming walls, Willow spamming firelauncher, Wendy pressing F on an ornery with Abi on her side, or most characters just holding F at melee while kiting a little.

Lardee's video was what sparked this thought, but it never was the sole reason why I felt Walter was a boring character. Spamming attacks at a boss and running away to apply more debuffs isn't my only problem with the slingshot. My problem is I just don't think the slingshot is a fun item to use in general. It still doesn't really help in the early game because the slingshot is still very clunky to use and is still extremely. Once you've gotten enough upgrades, it's still not the most fun for day to day combat unless you're willing to spend some of the better ammo in combat, which I'm sure some people will do. And, as for bosses, well you don't even need ickor rounds to even get valuable slowdown. All you need is slow rounds and Honey to get a similar effect at the cost of needing to manage the honey rounds more. Even then, though, the reason why some people feel this is different in comparison to Wolfgang, Wendy, Wigfrid, and Wanda is because of boss interaction. You're still kiting bosses with all these characters at the end of the day or still have the risk of dying if you're not careful.  They also have alternative ways of kiting that can make it fun for some (such as the Charged Eldin spear dash) or have other factors you need to manage that makes the boss engaging (keeping Abigail alive in a fight). As long as you know how to go about certain bosses, have the ammo to do so, and the correct frame, Walter isn't really in danger in bosses, which can be boring to most players. However, like I said, this was meant to just show why the average player will find this boring and I am not saying to remove any of the slingshot skills.
 

 

5 hours ago, kroban said:

No, Walter is supposed to be both, a fighter that also brings support on combat mostly, no character should be treated as a "trash solo but good support in multiplayer", because all of them should be able to be played as completely solo and have things for both scenarios (many people play solo, and theres also people in multiplayer that don't do everything as a group). Walter skill tree aimed exactly to this, like I said, he now has an insane amount of different ammos and things for different scenarios that makes him both a solid fighter for solo AND a solid support for multiplayer.

This feels like an old rant. Again, are you really testing the skill tree and paying attention to beta patches or just writing out of a video from a guy that never played Walter other than for a couple hours and with console cheats? Klei did said on last beta update that they will give Woby more utility things, and also add a branch dedicated to scout/camping stuff, so the whole "skill tree is only slingshot" will kind of fall apart.

And let me tell you, the reason why Walter was treated so poorly by the community for years, ever since he was added, was mostly because of his "trash slingshot DPS". In multiplayer no one cared about his storytelling, support tents (other than Wormwoods), "chip" damage at range, slows, or freeze before, because he was "the trashy ranged dps". And again, Im saying this as a Walter main that played him for hundreds of hours, and had to face many times other players with the "why are you playing with that trashy ranged perk soup? he does less damage than Wes and loses all sanity on 1 hit lul", even while I was spamming those "amazing support tents" on bases, slowing/freezing bosses, etc.

Klei did the best thing by focusing almost entirely on the slingshot, because its Walter's main trait. And by focusing on it they gave him the best "support" things ever. He became a serious damage dealer at range, while also gaining new ammo with electric damage, AOE damage/effects, better slows, DoT damage, special attacks, and even a planar damage buff for end-game multiplayer. He literally became one of the funniest characters to play as support now if you want to, I really don't understand where this whole "Klei pushed away his support role" comes from.

Why? Theres only 3 bee mobs in the game, that would be so unnecesary. The allergy exists as a drawback that makes you be more careful of hits from bees, but it doesn't need tweaks at all. If anything I would say the slingshot perks already solves that, you can kill Bee Queen easily by kiting her with Woby, without receiving many hits, with moonglass and slow-rounds aoe ammo. And even if you get  hit by BQ or his grumbees you cut a lot of the damage with a marble suit + pioneer hat

Maybe now with the skill tree does Walter fit both these criteria. However, when you look at Walter in the base game and both his weaknesses, it's very much the case, even if unintentional. Klei has stated that they didn't want Walter to have the best dps because they feared it would break the game. Therefore, his slingshot isn't really the best in combat as opposed to fighting solo. However, it is still really good in a team setting. Additionally, Walter isn't the best at foot combat because of his sanity downside. Yes, you could simply wear a marble or thulcite suit with the pioneer hat to counter this issue a bit, but those crafts can be expensive to make and you will still eventually need to deal with the sanity loss, especially in fights where you make a mistake. This is not an issue in team play because your team can help you use the slingshot more effectively or help you get the rounds you need, which can greatly boost his viability. Not to mention, a lot of his base game perks allow him to help the team a lot more while also have some solo benefits that he can benefit from. Was it a exaggeration that Walter is unviable in solo play? Maybe. However, even if he can do just fine, it still doesn't mean that a lot of his skills feel like they were designed with only solo play in mind. That's why I say Walter is a support character and not a fighter. His slingshot's clunkiness makes sense in a team base setting rather than a solo setting and that's more so have to do with Walter's slingshot not being the best. I'm not saying you can't fight with the slingshot in solo worlds or you can't get good damage out of Walter, I'm saying I feel the slingshot gets misrepresented by the vast majority of the community is BECAUSE they view the slingshot as a bad weapon and nothing else.
 

6 hours ago, kroban said:

This feels like an old rant. Again, are you really testing the skill tree and paying attention to beta patches or just writing out of a video from a guy that never played Walter other than for a couple hours and with console cheats? Klei did said on last beta update that they will give Woby more utility things, and also add a branch dedicated to scout/camping stuff, so the whole "skill tree is only slingshot" will kind of fall apart.

And let me tell you, the reason why Walter was treated so poorly by the community for years, ever since he was added, was mostly because of his "trash slingshot DPS". In multiplayer no one cared about his storytelling, support tents (other than Wormwoods), "chip" damage at range, slows, or freeze before, because he was "the trashy ranged dps". And again, Im saying this as a Walter main that played him for hundreds of hours, and had to face many times other players with the "why are you playing with that trashy ranged perk soup? he does less damage than Wes and loses all sanity on 1 hit lul", even while I was spamming those "amazing support tents" on bases, slowing/freezing bosses, etc.

Klei did the best thing by focusing almost entirely on the slingshot, because its Walter's main trait. And by focusing on it they gave him the best "support" things ever. He became a serious damage dealer at range, while also gaining new ammo with electric damage, AOE damage/effects, better slows, DoT damage, special attacks, and even a planar damage buff for end-game multiplayer. He literally became one of the funniest characters to play as support now if you want to, I really don't understand where this whole "Klei pushed away his support role" comes from.

Why? Theres only 3 bee mobs in the game, that would be so unnecesary. The allergy exists as a drawback that makes you be more careful of hits from bees, but it doesn't need tweaks at all. If anything I would say the slingshot perks already solves that, you can kill Bee Queen easily by kiting her with Woby, without receiving many hits, with moonglass and slow-rounds aoe ammo. And even if you get  hit by BQ or his grumbees you cut a lot of the damage with a marble suit + pioneer hat

I don't appreciate how condescending this sound. I understand that you are a Walter main and that's not your intention to sound that way, but it feels like you're calling me an idiot for not liking how Walter's skill tree is and explaining why. Do I understand every little detail about Walter's skill tree down to the bone? No, of course not. However, I still played as Walter during this beta and tried his skills. In fact, I even went out of my way to get the mysterious mimic band the devs teased in one of their streams to test it out in a game (Note: to get the band, you need a mimic chest to eat your flailing band in order to convert it. Here's how it looks side by side: Left = Flailing band, Right = Possessed Band).

I also need to state this again because I feel like this got lost when people read this post, I AM NOT SAYING TO REMOVE ANY OF HIS SKILLS. I understand that all his skills are really good and make him feel a lot better to play now. My main point, however, is that it should not take up the entire skill tree. As for it being his main aspect of his kit, I still don't feel that warrants 70% of the skill tree revolving solely around the slingshot. Plus, various other characters still got skills dedicated to aspects that aren't the main selling point of the character (Wolfgang with his gym, Woodie with his tree guard perks and Lucy crafts, Willow and her lighter spells, and Winona and her Charlie passive to name a few). Even with Wendy, who the devs stated they're happy with the tree as it is, they still want to revamp the skill tree to fit more to her character. Why should Walter not get any skills in favor of more quirky and fun camping stuff? Like I said, they should condense all the slingshot skills into 7-8 slots so all players can choose which quality of life stuff they want without outright forcing them to choose every skill to fix his slingshot. This allows you to tune the slingshot to how you want while making room for potential new skills for survival and his boy scout theming.

6 hours ago, kroban said:

Why? Theres only 3 bee mobs in the game, that would be so unnecesary. The allergy exists as a drawback that makes you be more careful of hits from bees, but it doesn't need tweaks at all. If anything I would say the slingshot perks already solves that, you can kill Bee Queen easily by kiting her with Woby, without receiving many hits, with moonglass and slow-rounds aoe ammo. And even if you get  hit by BQ or his grumbees you cut a lot of the damage with a marble suit + pioneer hat

Simple answer: It's fun to play around with. Not every skill needs to be optimal or productive for it to be a good skill. For example, Wendy's Vengeful Ghost and Woodie's Quick Picker skills are not really all that optimal because there are far better skills. However, they can still be funny to use to some players and you can get some enjoyment seeing these skills work. Plus, it fits the theming of their characters a lot. I think that's the problem with a lor of opinions on skill trees. People just want it to be optimal and to just buff the character to be overpowered and don't really focus on the skill trees being fun to some people. I don't like Wendy's Wreath skill in a meta perspective, but it is an extremely fun item to use, which is why I bring it. I don't think the Battle Rond for Wigfrid all that helpful compared to her spear, but it is still incredibly fun to block attacks and even parry certain attacks using the shield. Because of that, I don't think it feels unreasonable to want a gimmicky skill for Walter's allergies that gets out classed hard later on, but can be fun to use in the moment. 

At the end of the day, this is all my opinions and I wanted to get them out there for feedback. I can understand why it may come off as me saying they shouldn't have touched Walter's slingshot at all, but that isn't the case. All I'm saying is that they shouldn't have focused on just his slingshot for his entire skill tree without giving any fun camping based perks to play around with. Like I said, I understand why this post could make you frustrated and you probably didn't mean to come off that way, but I would appreciate if anymore comments are just about Walter's skill tree rather than try and put me down as a player because of my experiences. With that said, I wanted to break your points down because I do think they do provide an interesting perspective on Walter that isn't "he's boring to play" by giving why I feel the community might feel that way. My reasoning for being bored as Walter is very different from why other players get bored of playing Walter, which made me want to think why that may be the case. With that said, if there's any other points you'd like to make on Walter, please don't hesitate to quote me again. I'm always interested to hear others opinions that are vastly different from the norm.

Edit: I also think the stigma for holding F isn't a Walter only problem, but a community perceived problem. I remember a lot of players not liking Wigfrid as a character because she was the "hold F" queen, meaning a lot less focus on kiting since she benefits heavily from tanking. With her skill tree and bosses doing knockback/planar damage, this is no longer viable and it makes Wigfrid a much more fun character to play. However, I feel like this is just a stigma with holding F in general and the fact that Walter can do it well now just makes him the newest target for this stigma.

To most people, the most fun aspects of this game comes from learning boss patterns, kiting them out, dealing with their other threats, etc. When you take that away,  it can feel really boring for a lot of the player base. This is why I don't think Walter is to blame for this. People just don't like this playstyle.