Knabsack needs attention

[Koomin]

The state of the knabsack is disheartening.  
-Hitting people with a Krampus sack is great fun, but then it instead has a weird design where it is swinging from a twig and looks like a balloon.  Why does it not look like a Krampus sack?

-The functionality could be so much cooler.  It could:
1. have an inventory slot that changes it's qualities like damage or effect on creatures
2. capture creatures inside
3. knab boss souls for unique effects based on which was most recently knabbed
4. interact with or be usable with the affinity skills so that it's not useless once you get them
5. generate naughtiness to summon Krampii whenever you hit things with it, and treat Krampii as friendly while holding it
6. slowly knab souls from enemies as it hits them
7. something else
Even the proposed change of catching bugs with it is just so underwhelming.  It already clogs up 3x inventory slots by forcing so many soul jars, no one would use it to save inventory space from a bug net, and now with soul jar Wortox doesn't even really specifically want to catch bugs.  Wigfrid's spear or Wanda's watch or Wormwood's armor are examples of character items that are actually interesting and provide new gameplay loops - what does the knabsack change at all even if it can soon catch bugs?  Reduce the damage by half if necessary or even entirely, a new ham bat is not interesting, just make it do something at all that would make it change how I play the game.  It adds realistically nothing to Wortox's gameplay besides vibing as Krampus (which I admittedly do enjoy).

It even clearly was intended to have other uses, but then was abandoned halfway complete.  It is designed as a Krampus sack, and also originally was in the storage filter, indicating that it very likely was intended to have the ability to store things.  Storing things in the knabsack has been a hotly requested ability since it makes pretty obvious sense.  It seems the devs also recognized that initially, but then dropped it likely due to not wanting to budget the time, leaving it in this uninteresting state.

This brings up a final point.  In multiple posts devs have stated that the huge Wendy focus of this beta has not subtracted from other characters since separate teams have been working on each character.  This seems like it is phrased carefully to not allude to the fact that despite separate teams being assigned to each character as stated, some of the teams (like Wortox's) have clearly not spent much of their time working on their character since the beta started.  Check out the patch notes for Wortox since beta start- there have been incredibly minor changes overall, with the main one being abandoning the knabsack focus, and it is pretty obvious that the Wortox team moved on pretty quickly while the other characters' teams did not.  

Why is this item that clearly is not great and has been brought up and given feedback about dozens of times not getting attention or warranting continued work on this skill tree when other skill trees are getting massive amounts of effort?  Why have the teams spent so much time perfecting one skill tree and writing character specific patch note explanations, while just deciding "eh good enough" on the knabsack and moving on?  Where did the demand for a balloon twig ham bat that can pick up items and bugs come from, and to what end?

[Dingle]

Early on in the beta, I wanted it to catch bugs but also anything you could catch in a trap like birds. Maybe not hostile things. Just because it would be really fitting. My big dream request was being able to catch grass gekkos, to move them around.

I eventually settled for just a bug net. My reasoning is that:

1. I'm forced to get the knabsack, to get soul jar, which is effectively a mandatory pick.

2. I'm eventually not going to use the sack as a weapon, due to affinities. And even before then, I find myself mostly using a hambat still.

3. I'm not going to use the multi grab function much. And even if I wanted to, it takes a huge amount of durability right now to grab Reapered grass or kelp, its main practical use.

4. If I'm not using it as a weapon, or a pickup tool, then its a worthless perk that I am forced to grab.

5. It would be nice if it had any other function that I'd sometimes use. A high durability bug net to catch moonstorm bugs (forget their name) would at least be something.

[kehun]

50 minutes ago, Koomin said:

3. knab boss souls for unique effects based on which was most recently knabbed
5. generate naughtiness to summon Krampii whenever you hit things with it, and treat Krampii as friendly while holding it
 

or maybe while holding knabsack krampii would drop items for you that he stoled idk xD 

Anyway i like your ideas! 

[Echsrick]

sometimes it does feel like we are gettin the short stick and ignored, like, i was pretty early on knowing that knapsack is just...bad and wanted it be able to catch things even things never before like up to medium sized creatures like pigs and baby beefalos, because it would just fit soo much more then it being a weapon, like, its a bag on a stick, why use it as a weapon? and then for it to be somewhat okish as a weapon you have to fill your inventory and dont use your souls ever, the main thing wortox has, his souls that he can and realy sould use for food, teleport, and healing, not using souls is a waste and filling your inventory with dead space pretty much just to do a bit more damage the same you can if you just make a hambat or darksword wich will take less inventory to be able to do damage, even a tentacle spike is goin to be more worth then the knapsack

1: yes, it realy sould have its own designated inventory slot, and hand items having storage is nothing new, just look at sea fishing rod, or even walters slingshot
2: thats the main thing and it realy sould, again...it WAS in STORAGE solution filtter wich....you know, given its A BAG on a stick it realy sould be able to hold something
3: could be interesting but maybe to niche? how do you knap them you imagine? right clickin a boss to "absorb" its unique powers? like knaping deerclops makes you able to do an ice attack? guess some extra magic would not hurt him
4: i mostly just wish the shadow reaper would stop calling wortox a mortal, i dont know if knapsack would be realy worth having planar effects
5: would be interesting, krampus farm more or less, but how you mean make krampus friendly if you hold it? krampus normaly is not aggressive towards the player unless you hit them first, they actualy move away from you before you able to hit them
6: i think it would make too many souls appear maybe?
7: maybe knapsack realy sould never have been made as a weapon focus
 

[crushcircuit]

53 minutes ago, Echsrick said:

7: maybe knapsack realy sould never have been made as a weapon focus
 

i agree, i would really love to see it get more varied utilities as a tool as opposed to just being another character specific weapon

[Hollow soul 3]

I think one of the developers mentioned an improved bugnet had potential

[efgi]

I think the biggest thing missing for the knabsack is some storage capacity. I think introducing this would also create a more sensible alternative to its strength being related to personal inventory space. I'd advocate Wortox with a knabsack should have access to 3 pocket-dimension slots (play-specific, not unique to that particular knabsack) which only hold items which stack to at least 10. Wortox would access the same 3 slots from any Knabsack, which both prevents abusing the knabsack to ridiculously expand inventory space and gives Wortox a sort of magician's tophat of his own. 

I'd take or leave the bugnet suggestion. As people have pointed out, with the ability to store souls in jars, there's no need to hoard bugs like prior to the skilltree.

I think its damage is fine where it is, but think if that were to be nerfed in favor of more unique functionality that it would be worth it. As a weapon, its expense and durability are better draws (much easier to load up on silk and souls than on tatters and nightmare fuel). It makes more sense as a tool than as a weapon, especially once it's totally outclassed by planar gear.

[Koomin]

11 hours ago, Dingle said:

Early on in the beta, I wanted it to catch bugs but also anything you could catch in a trap like birds. Maybe not hostile things. Just because it would be really fitting. My big dream request was being able to catch grass gekkos, to move them around.

I eventually settled for just a bug net. My reasoning is that:

1. I'm forced to get the knabsack, to get soul jar, which is effectively a mandatory pick.

2. I'm eventually not going to use the sack as a weapon, due to affinities. And even before then, I find myself mostly using a hambat still.

3. I'm not going to use the multi grab function much. And even if I wanted to, it takes a huge amount of durability right now to grab Reapered grass or kelp, its main practical use.

4. If I'm not using it as a weapon, or a pickup tool, then its a worthless perk that I am forced to grab.

5. It would be nice if it had any other function that I'd sometimes use. A high durability bug net to catch moonstorm bugs (forget their name) would at least be something.

I don't disagree with any of this, but settling for his whole perk being a higher durability bugnet for catching moonstorm bugs is a pretty sad result.  This is basically a few twigs and silk and in the endgame. 

There was and is way more potential here if the support existed.

[Steorra]

13 hours ago, Koomin said:

3. knab boss souls for unique effects based on which was most recently knabbed

This sounds great but it's sounds a bit complex, I sadly guess this it would never happened... Especially considering what a short period we have before lunar year update.

13 hours ago, Koomin said:

Even the proposed change of catching bugs with it is just so underwhelming

 

13 hours ago, Koomin said:

Where did the demand for a balloon twig ham bat that can pick up items and bugs come from, and to what end?

I have same questions tbh. I was confused when the first time I saw our devs said that they are considering to make knabsack to be able to capture insects. "What makes our devs think this is highly required and welcomed for Wortox players?" Laterly I guess it just because to copy and paste a code from bug net is easier than create a new mechanic for knapsack - the true need for Wortox players is to add more (meaningful) mechanic to knapsack. To make it become meaningful might be a bit difficult, but to add more mechanic for knapsack is, umm, at least it is more easier to complete.

[Y0sH]

21 hours ago, Koomin said:

-The functionality could be so much cooler.  It could:

1. have an inventory slot that changes it's qualities like damage or effect on creatures.

3. knab boss souls for unique effects based on which was most recently knabbed.

6. slowly knab souls from enemies as it hits them

I REALLY like these suggestions. If it's going to be a weapon that you're incentivised to create atleast make it upgradable like Wigfrid/Wormwood. Or at the very least give it back the Planar options it already had. I can care less about it being able to capture small mobs like butterflies and don't really see the use in it.

[Dingle]

9 hours ago, Koomin said:

I don't disagree with any of this, but settling for his whole perk being a higher durability bugnet for catching moonstorm bugs is a pretty sad result.  This is basically a few twigs and silk and in the endgame. 

There was and is way more potential here if the support existed.

It is kind of sad, but here we are.

My ideal would probably be being able to skip the bug net perk entirely, but still get both Soul Jar and Overwhelming Greed. So seperate from that branch.

Even just having Soul Jar moved down a spot and the sack moved up a spot would be better, and make some new build options possible. Also it makes way more sense, Soul Jar is effectively mandatory. Its like Winonas portability skill.

I hate that the knabsack is forced on you, especially how it is now. I think this is just a leftover from the messed up, super interconnected beta launch design for Wortox. But it never got a full redesign, so traces remain. And even then, it made no sense at all due to the affinities.

It also continues to make no sense due to the affinities, especially shadow. If the "it is a weapon, lets buff that part" portion is leaned on, it eventually gets thrown into the garbage for the Reaper or brightshade sword.

[Steorra]

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

Even just having Soul Jar moved down a spot and the sack moved up a spot would be better

I agree with this since Knapsack is seems like a more earlier item than Soul Jar

1 hour ago, Dingle said:

It also continues to make no sense due to the affinities, especially shadow. If the "it is a weapon, lets buff that part" portion is leaned on, it eventually gets thrown into the garbage for the Reaper or brightshade sword.

I don't agree this by same reason I mentioned above. Knapsack is obviously an item for early game, just like how wooden cane did for Woodie. Which means Knapsack is reasonable to become useless in endgame just like how wooden cane did.

[Dingle]

36 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I don't agree this by same reason I mentioned above. Knapsack is obviously an item for early game, just like how wooden cane did for Woodie. Which means Knapsack is reasonable to become useless in endgame just like how wooden cane did.

I'd agree with this, if the knabsack wasn't a mandatory choice to get if you wanted Overwhelming Greed.

The wooden cane isn't mandatory filler, it's a capstone. And it isn't immediately at odds with his affinities. And it's purely a tool, not really designed as a weapon.

I get the spirit of the argument, just seems like a bad example.

[asdsaax]

5 hours ago, Steorra said:

don't agree this by same reason I mentioned above. Knapsack is obviously an item for early game, just like how wooden cane did for Woodie. Which means Knapsack is reasonable to become useless in endgame just like how wooden cane did.

Knabsack with covetous collector and wooden cane are NOT the same

Picking it can be even harmful for your playthrough because:

-It can hurt your tempo by encouraging bad priorities

-You are not always guaranteed to get red gems and jars

-Even if you manage to get 2 jars early on, then it's really bad to use it for ruins clear because you are sacrificing 3-4 slots for hambat's performance and taking out as much loot possible should be your prio before winter

-You are wasting a point that could be used for anything more impactful

I dislike how people say "Knabsack is an early game item" without considering it's actual performance and the fact it has a decent chance to not help you at all

If Klei wants to make a weapon with such weird commitment, then it should be worth it, but currently the item is just mundane and isn't even good at it's primary function (sweeping items) because there's no hotkey for it...

 

They should either remove soul damage scaling and doubledown on knabsack's power or keep knabsack as stinger sweeper and rework covetous collector, because it's not good to waste so much for hambat 2 performance

[somethin]

I think Klei should just drop the weapon aspect of it completely and focus on it's tool aspect. The sweep pick up sounds awesome until you realize it tanks the durability, so why not turn it into a pick up item on steroids? 1 use cost like, 5% durability but sweeps in a large area and have an upgrade skill option that increase the radius to something like the scythe and maybe add bug net function to it. Now you can REALLY role play as Krampus.

[Steorra]

25 minutes ago, somethin said:

1 use cost like, 5% durability

Please if it becomes a non-weapon please make it become non-consumable...

[Soul7k]

this is such a weird item. Aesthetically....not great looking to be honest, but yes as others have said double 200 durability for the amount of slots and things i need to make it I might as well just make 3 dark swords. its easier. Triggering lunar/shadow infinities would set it apart from other weapons early on while still giving a reason to replace it with the later items. Tho overall more than anything else I want it to look cooler

[Steorra]

4 hours ago, asdsaax said:

without considering it's actual performance

I have no argument about this point. I do agree that knapsack still need improvement. Then only thing I'd to clarify is that knapsack is obviously an item designed for early game so to say it does nothing after Wortox achieved their Shadow Affinity skill is nonsense.

5 minutes ago, Soul7k said:

Aesthetically....not great looking to be honest

I have same feeling about this, it was a bit strange for me but I'm hardly to point out what exactly it was. I hope it could get some aesthetic improvements in future as same as it's effect.

[somethin]

13 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Please if it becomes a non-weapon please make it become non-consumable...

Imo it's a non issue at all at 5% per use. Even if you use it exclusively as bug net it has double the durability of one and it's crafting recipe is already dirt cheap as it is. It's not like silk is hard to come by late game anyway.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

22 hours ago, Dingle said:

It is kind of sad, but here we are.

My ideal would probably be being able to skip the bug net perk entirely, but still get both Soul Jar and Overwhelming Greed. So seperate from that branch.

Even just having Soul Jar moved down a spot and the sack moved up a spot would be better, and make some new build options possible. Also it makes way more sense, Soul Jar is effectively mandatory. Its like Winonas portability skill.

*coughs violently*

Wow so weird that I digitally coughed up a functioning and relevant URL.

Edit: Wtf the mobile forums truncated to link to the OP. Apparently not that well-functioning... This post. Can't fix embeds on mobile, lol...

 

[Dingle]

1 hour ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

*coughs violently*

Wow so weird that I digitally coughed up a functioning and relevant URL.

Edit: Wtf the mobile forums truncated to link to the OP. Apparently not that well-functioning... This post. Can't fix embeds on mobile, lol...

 

U were rite.

I was even thinking the other day of stealing your mockup. Knabsack and covetous being separate from jar and Greed.

I didn't like the idea as much at first, but I grew to hate the knabsack being essentially mandatory.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

2 hours ago, Dingle said:

U were rite.

I was even thinking the other day of stealing your mockup. Knabsack and covetous being separate from jar and Greed.

I didn't like the idea as much at first, but I grew to hate the knabsack being essentially mandatory.

Yeah. I've started playing Nice builds quite a lot in groups, and it's becoming annoying to me too. It's the only thing keeping me from getting Pleasant Pastorale and it feels like an unnecessary roadblock to my build.

Feel free to steal it if you want to advocate for this change. I'm super on-board with it, now, so you have my blessing.

[Dingle]

On 1/8/2025 at 10:57 AM, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Yeah. I've started playing Nice builds quite a lot in groups, and it's becoming annoying to me too. It's the only thing keeping me from getting Pleasant Pastorale and it feels like an unnecessary roadblock to my build.

Feel free to steal it if you want to advocate for this change. I'm super on-board with it, now, so you have my blessing.

What are you getting for Nice, just Lifegiver 3 and the teleport skills? I remember you saying you hated Soul Bastion.

I'm not super sure if anyone likes Soul Bastion, even in a group. I wish its final point added something besides healing. Maybe a short buff of some sort, to team members and Wortox. Something enticing to a solo Wortox, as it's a shame there's no point in making a solo Nice build due to the lack of solo perks outside of the teleport ones.

[OMEGASCRUFF]

24 minutes ago, Dingle said:

What are you getting for Nice, just Lifegiver 3 and the teleport skills? I remember you saying you hated Soul Bastion.

I'm not super sure if anyone likes Soul Bastion, even in a group. I wish its final point added something besides healing. Maybe a short buff of some sort, to team members and Wortox. Something enticing to a solo Wortox, as it's a shame there's no point in making a solo Nice build due to the lack of solo perks outside of the teleport ones.

Yeah. I've been doing B1 in the post OP you made in the build thread I linked above. It's been incredibly comfortable for group play. Without Nabsacker, I'd be able to actually utilize Pleasant Pastorale and that would be absolutely amazing. I really do appreciate the increased healing range since it's SUPER noticeable, but the more I can avoid farming Souls, the more I can contribute to the group. It'd help a lot to have a free Pan Flute usage whenever I instantly map teleport to an ally whenever they die, to get whatever mobs that killed them under control while they can recover and pull aggro if necessary.

The first prerequisite skill to Soul Bastion is better than Soul Bastion itself. That feels so bad, man.

I really want a viable solo Nice Wortox build too. It would be really cool to be able to enjoy different styles with the skill tree alone, but as it stands, there's absolutely no real point to doing so other than roleplay purposes. If Soul Bastion I provided something actually valuable, I'd feel a lot better about it, especially with a change to the skill tree organization to allow for Pleasant Pastorale. I wish I could afford to get Cloudy Carmine somehow even with a change to it, but I'd probably have to use Shadow Harvester over Soul Decoy III, and I'm pretty faithful to Lunar Swindler + Enlightened Crown since it allows for the positioning and improved bandwidth for animation cancelling. I want to play more with it but I just can't justify it in any setup I use other than my Naughty build, which I've been avoiding until the self-heal gets changed.

[Dingle]

14 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

Yeah. I've been doing B1 in the post OP you made in the build thread I linked above. It's been incredibly comfortable for group play. Without Nabsacker, I'd be able to actually utilize Pleasant Pastorale and that would be absolutely amazing. I really do appreciate the increased healing range since it's SUPER noticeable, but the more I can avoid farming Souls, the more I can contribute to the group. It'd help a lot to have a free Pan Flute usage whenever I instantly map teleport to an ally whenever they die, to get whatever mobs that killed them under control while they can recover and pull aggro if necessary.

The first prerequisite skill to Soul Bastion is better than Soul Bastion itself. That feels so bad, man.

Lol 2 true

14 minutes ago, OMEGASCRUFF said:

I really want a viable solo Nice Wortox build too. It would be really cool to be able to enjoy different styles with the skill tree alone, but as it stands, there's absolutely no real point to doing so other than roleplay purposes. If Soul Bastion I provided something actually valuable, I'd feel a lot better about it, especially with a change to the skill tree organization to allow for Pleasant Pastorale. I wish I could afford to get Cloudy Carmine somehow even with a change to it, but I'd probably have to use Shadow Harvester over Soul Decoy III, and I'm pretty faithful to Lunar Swindler + Enlightened Crown since it allows for the positioning and improved bandwidth for animation cancelling. I want to play more with it but I just can't justify it in any setup I use other than my Naughty build, which I've been avoiding until the self-heal gets changed.

Oh yeah, that was the build I was planning on using for multiplayer. Though lately I've been trying to fit pastorale into that too. I can, if I lose Greed in a Nice build, which I really hate to do. Or if I lose Soul Damage and rely on bramble armor entirely. Seems really bad to lose out on a very fundamental new mechanic, though. Both horrible options that undo what I'd get out of pastorale.

Yeah, I'm hoping they loosen up the tree just a little, while giving more incentive to grab non-teleport Nice perks for solo. I think it would allow a lot more creativity without really increasing his power.

There's just too many "you can do this, but you absolutely shouldn't" stuff in Wortox builds right now. Like going for a Nice solo build. Or Like my B3 and B4 builds in that link haha. It would be really great if you could ever justify spending more than 2 points in Neutral. I think in most cases, its even hard to justify 2 in Neutral unless you're solo (because you lose out on having else to spend things on).

Making knabsack non-mandatory would help with all this (though Cloudy Carmine itself still would need replacing too imo, or just more new perks in Neutral).