An adjustment for both Casual and Hardcore players to a simply "win-win"

[WenericMember]

5 minutes ago, Debruh said:

Wholeheartedly agree. All this jumping through hoops to make player tag remain is wild

You don't have to beat CC as Wendy to unlock her. Any character

If someone can't beat CC as Wolfgang, then player tag probably won't help. Best solution  is to put player tag in the lunar alignment branch

That has 0 relevance to what i said.

[RussoDaFederal]

8 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

This thread is about trying to theorise a solution that satisfies as many people as possible. 

I'm sorry but this thread is trying to come up with an excuse to keep the player tag. I haven't seen a single person here acknowledge that player tag and spectral cure all is a busted combination. It doesn't look like a compromise to me, you're not tackling the problem, you're trying to work around it.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I'm sorry but this thread is trying to come up with an excuse to keep the player tag. I haven't seen a single person here acknowledge that player tag and spectral cure all is a busted combination. It doesn't look like a compromise to me, you're not tackling the problem, you're trying to work around it.

If your were in a place where just aim to remove what others prefer.

Then there's no place for any compromise.

Remember that there're far more thing stronger than Player Tag Abi + Cure-All. 

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I'm sorry but this thread is trying to come up with an excuse to keep the player tag. I haven't seen a single person here acknowledge that player tag and spectral cure all is a busted combination. It doesn't look like a compromise to me, you're not tackling the problem, you're trying to work around it.

They don't need to. A solid majority of people like the player tag per repeated polls. Nerfs to cure all is more popular than outright removal, and shadow abigail exclusivity was a compromise so people who like kiting with Abigail end up with a stromger character than people who don't, making player tag/cure all spam no longer the dominant strategy. 

The only one here failing to engage in discussion and compromise presently is you.

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

If your were in a place where just aim to remove what others prefer.

Then there's no place for any compromise.

I can say the same about you. If you want to keep the player tag and won't take no for an answer, you're not thinking of reaching a compromise from the beginning.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I say this with all due respect. I respect you as a person, this is NOT an attack, but I disagree with everything you said on the base post.

[Steorra]

Just now, RussoDaFederal said:

I can say the same about you. If you want to keep the player tag and won't take no for an answer, you're not thinking of reaching a compromise from the beginning.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I say this with all due respect. I respect you as a person, this is NOT an attack, but I disagree with everything you said on the base post.

Could you understand that the diversity have no space to compromise to those who just want simply destroy diversity itself? 

I still think we are in a discussion and still haven't break the line. I respect you as well. but I disagree with a purpose which aim to delete compromise itself.

[RussoDaFederal]

2 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

They don't need to. A solid majority of people like the player tag per repeated polls. Nerfs to cure all is more popular than outright removal, and shadow abigail exclusivity was a compromise so people who like kiting with Abigail end up with a stromger character than people who don't, making player tag/cure all spam no longer the dominant strategy. 

The only one here failing to engage in discussion and compromise presently is you.

You mistake "players want this" with actual balance. I'm sorry, but after I saw 25% of voters agreeing that Abigail should be immortal, I don't trust these people to make constructive criticism. Catering to the players every whim rarely ends well.

You're all unironically suggesting to change Wendy's base kit to make an optional skill viable. A skill that takes 3 insight points. This is not balance, this is not a compromise, this is just forcing your way to keep an unbalanced change.

[WenericMember]

11 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I can say the same about you. If you want to keep the player tag and won't take no for an answer, you're not thinking of reaching a compromise from the beginning.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I say this with all due respect. I respect you as a person, this is NOT an attack, but I disagree with everything you said on the base post.

You arent wrong, but you arent right either. Steorra started at a point of wanting the player tag. Her initial position was "no changes, fine as is"

She then offered stipulations to the player tag, to lessen the negative impact on the rest of the tree. 

Its at the very least healthy negotiation. Shes willing to nerf the tree to make more people happy. You could start your own thread from the other side. What compromises would you give to the people who liked the player tag, and were unhappy with the old blessed sisturn?

6 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

You mistake "players want this" with actual balance. I'm sorry, but after I saw 25% of voters agreeing that Abigail should be immortal, I don't trust these people to make constructive criticism. Catering to the players every whim rarely ends well.

You're all unironically suggesting to change Wendy's base kit to make an optional skill viable. A skill that takes 3 insight points. This is not balance, this is not a compromise, this is just forcing your way to keep an unbalanced change.

And thats the point of a compromise. They usually stem from a real grievance. Yes, those 25% may never be happy, but that still leaves 60% who are reasonable, and we should be able tonfind a solution for.

Tbh I want Wendy to have a super potion in her base kit regardless. Cure-all and distilled vengeance are the two best options. Also cure all also has an unhealthy interaction with other skills, like ghastly experience.

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, WenericMember said:

Its at the very least healthy negotiation. Shes willing to nerf the tree to make more people happy. You could start your own thread from the other side. What compromises would you give to the people who liked the player tag, and were unhappy with the old blessed sisturn?

I already did make a post about it before the player tag update. The suggestion to adjust gestalt Abigail, remove her riled up state completely while keeping her damage and survivability. This would solve the "Abi too strong she soloed bearger" problem. The whole player tag discussion started, if I remember correctly, because gestalt Abigail became a punching bag. Or at least this discussion only got relevant after that. Anyway, the core problem here is, gestalt Abigail is too weak, and player tag on shadow Abigail is too strong. We could remove player tag completely and buff Abigail in other aspects. What we disagree on is that you're trying to reach a compromise focusing solely on this specific skill. I'm saying we should remove this skill altogether and adjust the other skills that led to this point. The player tag is an artificial solution for gestalt Abi's lack of survivability since the last update, I want to see a better solution that doesn't revolve around it.

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

 Anyway, the core problem here is, gestalt Abigail is too weak, and player tag on shadow Abigail is too strong. We could remove player tag completely 

I cant understand the logic behind these words. You said player tag on shadow abi is too strong, then why you can not accept that just remove player tag from shadow abi?

[RussoDaFederal]

Just now, Steorra said:

I cant understand the logic behind these words. You said player tag on shadow abi is too strong, then why you can not accept that just remove player tag from shadow abi?

What? I'm advocating that player tag should be removed altogether, both for shadow Abi and gestalt Abi. I thought that was very clear. Instead of relying on player tag, gestalt Abi should have her previous AI back, and not wait to get killed after she does a single attack. Shadow Abi is fine as is (without player tag), she doesn't need any extra armor

[Debruh]

7 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Also cure all also has an unhealthy interaction with other skills, like ghastly experience

That's more of a problem with Ghastly experience changing Abby by %. 

If that was removed, then there wouldn't be that much of a problem.

An instant level three elixir was always gonna have problems. The problem isn't with the base kit, it's with the skills.

Cure-all is training wheels. It's what someone uses when still practicing a boss fight. Some fights have it used mid fight, such as fuelweaver or bee queen. Or boss fights where you unsummon Abby and put cure-all on her. Making it require life giving amulets would damage Wendy greatly

Spamming cure-all never really made Abby survive in situations where she couldn't, until this new skill

[WenericMember]

6 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I already did make a post about it before the player tag update. The suggestion to adjust gestalt Abigail, remove her riled up state completely while keeping her damage and survivability. This would solve the "Abi too strong she soloed bearger" problem. The whole player tag discussion started, if I remember correctly, because gestalt Abigail became a punching bag. Or at least this discussion only got relevant after that. Anyway, the core problem here is, gestalt Abigail is too weak, and player tag on shadow Abigail is too strong. We could remove player tag completely and buff Abigail in other aspects. What we disagree on is that you're trying to reach a compromise focusing solely on this specific skill. I'm saying we should remove this skill altogether and adjust the other skills that led to this point. The player tag is an artificial solution for gestalt Abi's lack of survivability since the last update, I want to see a better solution that doesn't revolve around it.

The issue with that solution is that the main people who want player tag haven't beaten celestial champion yet, so that change doesn't help them.

Anyway I need sleep. Goodnight.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

What? I'm advocating that player tag should be removed altogether, both for shadow Abi and gestalt Abi. I thought that was very clear. Instead of relying on player tag, gestalt Abi should have her previous AI back, and not wait to get killed after she does a single attack. Shadow Abi is fine as is (without player tag), she doesn't need any extra armor

Regular Abi does matter. You should not ignore those who cannot achieve two affinity form Abi. Also there's some people who have no interest for both Shadow and Lunar Abi (Even the Lunar has rollbacked)

I mean. I was insist that player tag should be more easier to achieve but only valid for regular abi. It won't become OP since you cannot use Shadow Abi (or even the Shadow elixir) with Player Tag together.

4 minutes ago, Debruh said:

That's more of a problem with Ghastly experience changing Abby by %. 

If that was removed, then there wouldn't be that much of a problem.

An instant level three elixir was always gonna have problems. The problem isn't with the base kit, it's with the skills.

Cure-all is training wheels. It's what someone uses when still practicing a boss fight. Some fights have it used mid fight, such as fuelweaver or bee queen. Or boss fights where you unsummon Abby and put cure-all on her. Making it require life giving amulets would damage Wendy greatly

Spamming cure-all never really made Abby survive in situations where she couldn't, until this new skill

I personally prefer to remove Ghastly elixir itself.

Then lesser "OP" critism.

Especially the Ghastly elixir seems more like repeatly with the original Sisturn effect.

[RussoDaFederal]

14 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

The issue with that solution is that the main people who want player tag haven't beaten celestial champion yet, so that change doesn't help them.

Anyway I need sleep. Goodnight.

Do they need help though? Abigail is already strong and there are many ways to cheese Celestial Champion. You only need to beat them once too, you could even cheat and use console commands if you want. CC is supposed to be hard. If someone can't defeat CC with base Abigail, they'll have a hard time even with gestalt Abigail. CC is not hard simply because it's hard to keep Abi alive, they're hard because they have good movement, a good moveset and do a ton of damage. Plus, you already have that potion to get her to lv3 instantly, it is already easier to defeat CC with base Abigail on this update. Klei has already done a good job so far, but nerfing gestalt Abigail made everyone lose their minds and led us to the current state that the forum is in

20 minutes ago, Steorra said:

It won't become OP since you cannot use Shadow Abi (or even the Shadow elixir) with Player Tag together.

It absolutely will, though. The only difference between shadow Abi and regular Abi is that shadow Abi has a new elixir and can do planar damage only when you murder small creatures. Anything I said about shadow Abi applies to regular Abi. If you want the player tag so bad, fine, I guess it would be less worse to only enable it as long as Abi doesn't have any affinity picked on the skill tree. It's still terrible though.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

It absolutely will, though. The only difference between shadow Abi and regular Abi is that shadow Abi has a new elixir and can do planar damage only when you murder small creatures. Anything I said about shadow Abi applies to regular Abi. If you want the player tag so bad, fine, I guess it would be less worse to only enable it as long as Abi doesn't have any affinity picked on the skill tree. It's still terrible though.

I was mentioned to move the Shadow Elixir effect into Sisturn decoration, which means if you want the cursed Vex effect then you can't have Player Tag at the same time.

7 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

It absolutely will, though. The only difference between shadow Abi and regular Abi is that shadow Abi has a new elixir and can do planar damage only when you murder small creatures. Anything I said about shadow Abi applies to regular Abi. If you want the player tag so bad, fine, I guess it would be less worse to only enable it as long as Abi doesn't have any affinity picked on the skill tree. It's still terrible though.

Also about the murdering part, I was suggested to make Abi become more fragile when the shadow form of her activated. This would be a nerf but considering how broken DPS current Shadow Abi have, this could be a enhancement of the "high risk high reward" playstyle (many players who dislike player tag just said that they prefer high risk high reward gameplay)

[RussoDaFederal]

28 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I was mentioned to move the Shadow Elixir effect into Sisturn decoration, which means if you want the cursed Vex effect then you can't have Player Tag at the same time.

As I said, that's less worse than the current state of the beta. I still dislike it though. Player tag should be removed. But this is a compromise I could accept, as long as spectral cure all is unchanged. As bad as I think it is for balance, I like the flavor of it.

Edit: wait, there's a problem with it. You're tying both the shadow and lunar branches to the sisturn branch. You're effectively removing 6 skills from the skill tree. I mean, what would you replace the vex effect with? You're destroying the whole symmetry of shadow/lunar skills. Defense -> elixir -> unique trait. That won't work.

Another edit: let me get this straight. Your solution is to make shadow and lunar Abigail only work based on sisturn decoration, and then replace the whole shadow and lunar branches with... What? @Steorra

[Steorra]

28 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

As I said, that's less worse than the current state of the beta. I still dislike it though. Player tag should be removed. But this is a compromise I could accept, as long as spectral cure all is unchanged. As bad as I think it is for balance, I like the flavor of it.

Edit: wait, there's a problem with it. You're tying both the shadow and lunar branches to the sisturn branch. You're effectively removing 6 skills from the skill tree. I mean, what would you replace the vex effect with? You're destroying the whole symmetry of shadow/lunar skills. Defense -> elixir -> unique trait. That won't work.

Another edit: let me get this straight. Your solution is to make shadow and lunar Abigail only work based on sisturn decoration, and then replace the whole shadow and lunar branches with... What? @Steorra

I'm sorry but it's too tired to explain every details one by one follow your question... The answer of this question also has been mentioned in that detailed thread I guess you may try to have a look when you have spare time...

[RussoDaFederal]

Just now, Steorra said:

I'm sorry but it's too tired to explain every details one by one follow your question... The answer of this question also has been mentioned in that detailed thread I guess you may try to have a look when you have spare time...

You could at least provide the link to it.

[Steorra]

7 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

You could at least provide the link to it.

I'm sorry but it was provided in this thread from very beginning...eh, ok, here it is.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/162523-6-detailed-ideas-for-improving-different-playstyles-of-wendy-every-playstyle-should-be-valid-and-respected-abi-survival-high-risk-high-reward-sisturn-improvement-lunar-abi-affinities compatibility/

[RussoDaFederal]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I'm sorry but it was provided in this thread from very beginning...eh, ok, here it is.

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/162523-6-detailed-ideas-for-improving-different-playstyles-of-wendy-every-playstyle-should-be-valid-and-respected-abi-survival-high-risk-high-reward-sisturn-improvement-lunar-abi-affinities compatibility/

My bad, I forgot to check the link provided back on the initial post. I have just read it and I stand by what I said. I respect you and your dedication to provide new suggestions, but I disagree with almost everything you say. One thing I agree with is that we should have gestalt Abigail back to what she was. This would remove the need to keep the player tag.

I understant that you and some self proclaimed casual players want an option to make the game even easier. However, Klei already introduced the ghastly experience elixir and the previous gestalt Abigail had a lot more survivability. The whole idea behind the lunar alignment was to make her better at fighting bosses. From what I read, your definition of casual and hardcore players is: casuals are bad at fighting bosses, hardcores are good at it. You know you only need to kill Celestial Champion once to unlock lunar alignments for that character forever, right? You know you can kill CC by summoning other bosses, right? You can use whatever method available (and there are a lot) to kill CC and unlock gestalt Abigail. I disagree with your statement that "shadow Abi is for hardcore players, base Abi is for casual players and gestalt Abi is whatever". Gestalt Abi was the one geared towards players who have a hard time fighting bosses. If Klei brings back her survivability, they'll both recover people's interest in the lunar branch and remove the need to have Abigail take half damage on all forms. All characters "struggle" at killing CC and Fuelweaver for the first time to have access to lunar and shadow skills. That's the point, it's supposed to be a challenge. If you want the bonus without facing a challenge, you can use traps, followers, ask other players for help or even use console commands to cheat.

This definition of casual player who has a hard time facing bosses only makes sense for people playing completely by themselves. Go play on a public server, go play with one or two friends, and all boss fights will become so much easier with more people to help. You don't need to be able to solo CC to have access to gestalt Abi. Gestalt Abi is the key for all the problems on the forum right now

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Klei already introduced the ghastly experience elixir and the previous gestalt Abigail had a lot more survivability. 

I'm sorry, but here's already some survey shows that the Ghastly elixir is unpopular for both side people. Casual side think it is inconvenient and Hardcore side think it's imbalance. If there's any necessary I would completely agree to remove this thing.

 

And for Lunar Abi part. One thing I have to clarify is regular Abi does matter. The most healthy design is trying to make regular, lunar and shadow become 3 valuable options for different playstyle. None of them should be forget forever after the game pushed after some point. I respect your viewpoints, but I hope you could share some respect to regular abi. 

[RussoDaFederal]

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

I'm sorry, but here's already some survey shows that the Ghastly elixir is unpopular for both side people. Casual side think it is inconvenient and Hardcore side think it's imbalance. If there's any necessary I would completely agree to remove this thing.

Ok, first of all, I don't care anymore what most people think. Just because a lot of people agree with a terrible suggestion, it doesn't make it any less worse, it just shows how inexperienced people can't be trusted to make a good long term decision.

4 minutes ago, Steorra said:

And for Lunar Abi part. One thing I have to clarify is regular Abi does matter. The most healthy design is trying to make regular, lunar and shadow become 3 valuable options for different playstyle. None of them should be forget forever after the game pushed after some point. I respect your viewpoints, but I hope you could share some respect to regular abi. 

What do you mean "share respect"? I'm not saying she's bad, it's the opposite. Abigail is good even without any skills. That's the whole point, you and a lot of other people are complaining that Abigail, who is already good, should get even better at no cost.

I like the flavor of your sisturn suggestion, decorating the sisturn with different flowers would be nice, but if you tie the sisturn to all Abigail forms, then you're removing 6 skills from her tree. What you could do instead is make the whole sisturn branch only attainable if you don't have shadow nor lunar skills. But that would hurt people who like that branch and still want to pick an affinity. And it would not work with your idea to tie the shadow and lunar forms to the sisturn since they'd be blocked.

So to sum up, answer me this: would you be ok with keeping the player tag but completely blocking the whole sisturn branch if the player has an affinity? Something like neutral Wortox, can't have too many nice nor too many naughty skills.

[Steorra]

5 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I like the flavor of your sisturn suggestion, decorating the sisturn with different flowers would be nice, but if you tie the sisturn to all Abigail forms, then you're removing 6 skills from her tree. What you could do instead is make the whole sisturn branch only attainable if you don't have shadow nor lunar skills. But that would hurt people who like that branch and still want to pick an affinity. And it would not work with your idea to tie the shadow and lunar forms to the sisturn since they'd be blocked.

I'm sorry? Could you tell me where my thread shows that there's no replacement for the original affinity skill?

7 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

So to sum up, answer me this: would you be ok with keeping the player tag but completely blocking the whole sisturn branch if the player has an affinity? Something like neutral Wortox, can't have too many nice nor too many naughty skills.

And I personally Ok with this though it's just a compromise.  My original design intention is to make Abi have flexible options to encourage more playstyle even included mixing playstyle. There's already have the block of Lunar Abi by the limited transform trigger mechanic. If it's needed I prefer change Shadow Abi transform trigger into a relation with Lunar Eclipse.

I'm not sure what attitude of others.

[RussoDaFederal]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

I'm sorry? Could you tell me where my thread shows that there's no replacement for the original affinity skill?

Can you tell me where there is? I haven't seen any hard replacement for the 6 affinity skills, just a suggestion to detach the elixirs from their respective affinities, which is not only a terrible idea but it goes directly against Klei's vision. What is your goal here? Do you want the sisturn to play a major role in affinities or not? Do you want to have the sisturn skill reworked AND keep the affinity skills? You don't think this is a waste? What bonus would each flower give to Abi then? If you specified that in that thread, I missed it, because all I read was suggestions to modify elixirs, reorganize the skill tree, add even more easy healing options to Abigail and not a single concise thought about how you could replace that single skill that breaks the other 6 that I mentioned. You didn't solve the issue, you just added a lot of other issues on that thread. In fact, I don't think that thread is relevant to this discussion at all, just answer me how you would rework the sisturn 3 skill to accept multiple flower decorations while still keeping the 6 affinity skills viable. You made a suggestion to basically redo half of the tree. I want to know how you can redo just one skill while leaving the rest intact.