An adjustment for both Casual and Hardcore players to a simply "win-win"

[Xplan]

Just now, Lardee said:

Finally someone attempting a specific explanation. So if I understand this right, it's a mentality, not necessarily one's actual skill level. In other words, you can be a hardcore player who only knows how to beat Deerclops and a casual player who knows how to beat every boss in the game as Wilson. 

Indeed, though i could learn how to handle all these bosses. Because it is tiring, so being a glass cannon is not that charming for me.

[Lardee]

2 minutes ago, NINA1917 said:

Understand correctly

Then here's the follow up. If even casual players are expected to learn how to increase their skill level, knowledge and way they play the game in order to progress through the challenges of the game (in other words, adapt to the game rather than the other way around), why wouldn't "casual" Wendy players be expected to do the same?

[Steorra]

2 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Then here's the follow up. If even casual players are expected to learn how to increase their skill level, knowledge and way they play the game in order to progress through the challenges of the game (in other words, adapt to the game rather than the other way around), why wouldn't "casual" Wendy players be expected to do the same?

The most important thing is options for different purposes. Ofc some of us prefer to adapt to the game and increase our skill level, but we should leave an option for those who are not fan of this playstyle.

No one have a right to stop others to play as what they want.

[WenericMember]

https://forums.kleientertainment.com/forums/topic/162530-elaboration-on-blessed-sisturn-cure-all-rewirks/

Some more comprehensive thoughts.

[Lardee]

5 minutes ago, Steorra said:

The most important thing is options for different purposes. Ofc some of us prefer to adapt to the game and increase our skill level, but we should leave an option for those who are not fan of this playstyle.

No one have a right to stop others to play as what they want.

Gestalt Abigail is an option. Spectral Cure all is an option. Getting better at positioning is an option. Team spirit is an option. Even fighting without Abigail is an option. 

You have options. 

I want Abigail to have 1,000,000 HP and kill every boss in one hit. I want Wendy to move at 5,000% movement speed. I want Abigail to spawn friendly Deerclops that will build my base. According to your logic, all these changes should be implemented correct?

[NINA1917]

12 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Then here's the follow up. If even casual players are expected to learn how to increase their skill level, knowledge and way they play the game in order to progress through the challenges of the game (in other words, adapt to the game rather than the other way around), why wouldn't "casual" Wendy players be expected to do the same?

These requests can only be made by a person themselves, and we cannot do so and have no right to interfere with how any player enjoys the game.
In the past, there was a saying in the Chinese community to describe Don't Starve players - only kids with heads made of iron would like this game. A child with an iron head means that when a person hits a wall, he does not choose to go around it, but stubbornly smashes through the wall - only players who like challenges will love this game.
But Don't Starve Online is not like this. Online brings social attributes to the game content and introduces a large number of non-hardcore players. I have experienced conflicts between different types of players for a long time, and this conflict is just a recurrence of the past for me

I'm pretty sure that different players' demands on each other will only lead to bickering until fatigue, so I tend to put forward my opinions and then wait for the decision of a third party - Klei.

[Xplan]

Just now, Lardee said:

Then here's the follow up. If even casual players are expected to learn how to increase their skill level, knowledge and way they play the game in order to progress through the challenges of the game (in other words, adapt to the game rather than the other way around), why wouldn't "casual" Wendy players be expected to do the same?

maybe they prefer to learn how to build a factory rather than learning how to handle a certain bosses.

lardee, i've seen your videos on YouTube. you are a good player who are doing well at combat.

You taught a lot useful skills to play different characters. Our DST videos uploader prefer to teach us how to build a factory like automatedly killing bosses machine.

maybe we focus more on learning something else?

[Lardee]

2 minutes ago, Xplan said:

maybe they prefer to learn how to build a factory rather than learning how to handle a certain bosses.

But what if they want to handle bosses, but since they're a "casual player" they don't want to put the effort to develop the skills or obtain the resources to do so? Should Klei make the entire game easier to allow them to succeed without any effort?

2 minutes ago, Xplan said:

lardee, i've seen your videos on YouTube. you are a good player who are doing well at combat.

You taught a lot useful skills to play different characters. Our DST videos uploader prefer to teach us how to build a factory like automatedly killing bosses machine.

maybe we focus more on learning something else?

I don't understand what you're saying here, can you rephrase?

[Steorra]

17 minutes ago, Lardee said:

Gestalt Abigail is an option. Spectral Cure all is an option. Getting better at positioning is an option. Team spirit is an option. Even fighting without Abigail is an option. 

You have options. 

I want Abigail to have 1,000,000 HP and kill every boss in one hit. I want Wendy to move at 5,000% movement speed. I want Abigail to spawn friendly Deerclops that will build my base. According to your logic, all these changes should be implemented correct?

Yeah, you almost forgot that "uninstalling DST is an option". Let me help you to add this.

[Xplan]

Just now, Lardee said:

But what if they want to handle bosses, but since they're a "casual player" they don't want to put the effort to develop the skills or obtain the resources to do so? Should Klei make the entire game easier to allow them to succeed without any effort?

of course not.

Taking myself as an example, i cant protect Abi while fighting with bosses. But i still made efforts to make it through by preparing more armors, resources.

i learnt how to build varieties of factories to boost efficiency.

Am i succeed without any effort?

[Lardee]

3 minutes ago, Steorra said:

Yeah, you almost forgot that "uninstalling DST is an option". Let me help you to add this.

In other words, you don't actually believe this:

[Lardee]

3 minutes ago, Xplan said:

of course not.

Taking myself as an example, i cant protect Abi while fighting with bosses. But i still made efforts to make it through by preparing more armors, resources.

i learnt how to build varieties of factories to boost efficiency.

Am i succeed without any effort?

You're succeeding with effort and that's my point. You didn't complain and ask for the game to be changed so that you could succeed without effort. You put the effort which allowed you to succeed.

[Steorra]

3 minutes ago, Lardee said:

In other words, you don't actually believe this:

I guess that's your own problem. You are blind to your arrogant and your lack of empathy. Take your accusation back to your own.

[Lardee]

Just now, Shining Galaxy said:

Strange slippery slope fallacy, because you can't refute others, you've made a punching bag and hit it hard. We don't want an overly strong Abi, we just want the gestalt Abi and shadow Abi to cater to different people's preferences. It would be best for the basic Abi to also become a valuable optional style.

This isn't the slippery slope fallacy. This is testing a principle by taking it to its logical conclusion.  What is an "overly strong Abi"? You obviously don't want some people's preferences to be catered to.

Basic Abi has been a valuable optional style before Wendy's skill tree.

1 minute ago, Steorra said:

I guess that's your own problem. You are blind to your arrogant and your lack of empathy. Take your accusation back to your own.

So personal attacks, insults and emotional appeals.

[Steorra]

4 minutes ago, Lardee said:

So personal attacks, insults and emotional appeals.

Your accusation does matter!

 

but it's none of my business (shrug)

[lio516]

2 hours ago, Lardee said:

What's the title of this thread?

I think it depends on how you look at it, a guy who considers himself a casual gamer, then he is a casual gamer, and arguing is pointless

[RussoDaFederal]

I completely disagree. You know what I use spectral cure alls for, mostly? Frog rains. If you make cure alls more expensive, you're not hurthing just people who fight bosses with tons of cure alls. When did shadow Abigail become this menace that needs to be even more fragile? She was already "nerfed" on the last update (extra damage was replaced with planar damage conversion). And even if you make cure alls more expensive, you're just delaying the inevitable. Give people enough time to farm resources and the problem will persist. Making something more tedious to farm does not make the game harder or more balanced. Just accept that the player tag should've never been a thing. Instead, Klei should improve gestalt Abigail's survivability. They completely killed her when people started complaining about her "soloing" bosses. I stand by my previous suggestion, revert gestalt Abi to what she was, remove the "wait 1 second at the end of the attack to receive more damage" thing. Instead, remove her riled up state (for gestalt only). Without rile up, you have to manually tell her where and what to attack, be it with the dash command or by attacking with Wendy herself. All Abigil changes since they nerfed gestalt Abi seem artificial and don't fix the problem at hand.

[Steorra]

Just now, RussoDaFederal said:

I completely disagree. You know what I use spectral cure alls for, mostly? Frog rains. If you make cure alls more expensive, you're not hurthing just people who fight bosses with tons of cure alls.

Even nerf current pipspook line it is still far more cheaper than pre-skill tree. Or did you have any problem about frog rains on live?

2 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

She was already "nerfed" on the last update (extra damage was replaced with planar damage conversion). 

Lie. This is a buff.

2 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Give people enough time to farm resources and the problem will persist.

This was a basic gameplay of DST. Maybe you should go ask nerf dumplings, football helmat and marble suit first before you say something like this.

4 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Just accept that the player tag should've never been a thing.

You're tent to be blind on half players' voices. If 21.7%+7.55%+25.47% is ignorable, then no reason to hear 7.55% which you were in.

7 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

Instead, Klei should improve gestalt Abigail's survivability. They completely killed her when people started complaining about her "soloing" bosses. I stand by my previous suggestion, revert gestalt Abi to what she was, remove the "wait 1 second at the end of the attack to receive more damage" thing. Instead, remove her riled up state (for gestalt only).

This part was already mentioned in my details of suggestions thread. I suggested that to rollback Lunar Abi to what she was, but give a limit for preventing AFK boss killing - just make Lunar Abi losing damage when Wendy stop attacking her target, similar like how Shadow Duelist perform with AFK Maxwell.

[WenericMember]

2 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I completely disagree. You know what I use spectral cure alls for, mostly? Frog rains. If you make cure alls more expensive, you're not hurthing just people who fight bosses with tons of cure alls. When did shadow Abigail become this menace that needs to be even more fragile? She was already "nerfed" on the last update (extra damage was replaced with planar damage conversion). And even if you make cure alls more expensive, you're just delaying the inevitable. Give people enough time to farm resources and the problem will persist. Making something more tedious to farm does not make the game harder or more balanced. Just accept that the player tag should've never been a thing. Instead, Klei should improve gestalt Abigail's survivability. They completely killed her when people started complaining about her "soloing" bosses. I stand by my previous suggestion, revert gestalt Abi to what she was, remove the "wait 1 second at the end of the attack to receive more damage" thing. Instead, remove her riled up state (for gestalt only). Without rile up, you have to manually tell her where and what to attack, be it with the dash command or by attacking with Wendy herself. All Abigil changes since they nerfed gestalt Abi seem artificial and don't fix the problem at hand.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, she got a massive buff in that her normal damage became planar damage, becoming way better in the endgame at no cost.

Also, she's meant to be a glass cannon archetype, so giving her natural bulk destorys the choice vetween shadow and lunar. 

Re: cure all, my personal suggestion was to make it a super potion, so one is available pre-rifts as compensation. Might not be what you want, but its something more interesting than a direct nerf.

Also, the enough resources thing is ok because... thats the case for any survivor anyway. With enough resources anyone can facetank.

Gesalt Abigail isnt especially relevant right now (though she should get the changes you suggest) because the main concern is survivability for players who can't beat celestial champion.

[Koomin]

27 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

 When did shadow Abigail become this menace that needs to be even more fragile? She was already "nerfed" on the last update (extra damage was replaced with planar damage conversion).

I think you misread the patch notes or made an error in testing.  She did not get her extra damage replaced with planar damage conversion (which was what some people including me were suggesting).  She just got her bonus damage switched from normal damage to planar damage, while the value was unchanged.  It was strictly a big buff, not a nerf at all. 

[RussoDaFederal]

7 hours ago, Steorra said:

Lie. This is a buff.

It's an adjustment. It's better for the late game, worse for pre rift stuff. I even put quotation marks because I know it's not exactly a nerf. But aren't you concerned mostly with pre rift content? Pick a side.

 

7 hours ago, Steorra said:

This part was already mentioned in my details of suggestions thread. I suggested that to rollback Lunar Abi to what she was, but give a limit for preventing AFK boss killing - just make Lunar Abi losing damage when Wendy stop attacking her target, similar like how Shadow Duelist perform with AFK Maxwell.

Ok this much I can agree with. Still disagree with the base post, don't change base stuff.

 

7 hours ago, Steorra said:

You're tent to be blind on half players' voices. If 21.7%+7.55%+25.47% is ignorable, then no reason to hear 7.55% which you were in.

I don't want to sound arrogant, but I don't care about what most players think if they can't make the math and realize player tag combined with spectral cure all is too strong. If most players want Abigail to be invincible, does it mean she should? I don't think so.

 

7 hours ago, WenericMember said:

Also, the enough resources thing is ok because... thats the case for any survivor anyway. With enough resources anyone can facetank.

Then why is this a discussion topic anyway? Shouldn't we just leave her base kit alone then?

7 hours ago, Koomin said:

I think you misread the patch notes or made an error in testing.  She did not get her extra damage replaced with planar damage conversion (which was what some people including me were suggesting).  She just got her bonus damage switched from normal damage to planar damage, while the value was unchanged.  It was strictly a big buff, not a nerf at all. 

Then my game is bugged because shadow Abi was doing the same damage as base Abi on pre rift mobs, tested on beefalo and pigmen

Edit: it was indeed a bug. Tried it again some time ago and the bonus damage was still there.

[WenericMember]

1 minute ago, RussoDaFederal said:

It's an adjustment. It's better for the late game, worse for pre rift stuff. I even put quotation marks because I know it's not exactly a nerf. But aren't you concerned mostly with pre rift content? Pick a side.

 

Ok this much I can agree with. Still disagree with the base post, don't change base stuff.

 

I don't want to sound arrogant, but I don't care about what most players think if they can't make the math and realize player tag combined with spectral cure all is too strong. If most players want Abigail to be invincible, does it mean she should? I don't think so.

 

Then why is this a discussion topic anyway? Shouldn't we just leave her base kit alone then?

I don't think planar has any interaction with pre rift mobs. As far as I can tell anyway. Can you source that?

Because progress is built on compromise. What you're suggesting would upset a vast majority of people. This thread is about trying to theorise a solution that satisfies as many people as possible. 

[Koomin]

On 12/12/2024 at 7:11 PM, Jason said:

It was a conversion. One to the other. So it's only noticeable against planar things.

 

4 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

It's an adjustment. It's better for the late game, worse for pre rift stuff. I even put quotation marks because I know it's not exactly a nerf. But aren't you concerned mostly with pre rift content? Pick a side

 

This is from the patch notes, could go check out the thread for more info.

[Debruh]

40 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

I completely disagree. You know what I use spectral cure alls for, mostly? Frog rains. If you make cure alls more expensive, you're not hurthing just people who fight bosses with tons of cure alls. When did shadow Abigail become this menace that needs to be even more fragile? She was already "nerfed" on the last update (extra damage was replaced with planar damage conversion). And even if you make cure alls more expensive, you're just delaying the inevitable. Give people enough time to farm resources and the problem will persist. Making something more tedious to farm does not make the game harder or more balanced. Just accept that the player tag should've never been a thing. Instead, Klei should improve gestalt Abigail's survivability. They completely killed her when people started complaining about her "soloing" bosses. I stand by my previous suggestion, revert gestalt Abi to what she was, remove the "wait 1 second at the end of the attack to receive more damage" thing. Instead, remove her riled up state (for gestalt only). Without rile up, you have to manually tell her where and what to attack, be it with the dash command or by attacking with Wendy herself. All Abigil changes since they nerfed gestalt Abi seem artificial and don't fix the problem at hand.

7 minutes ago, RussoDaFederal said:

It's an adjustment. It's better for the late game, worse for pre rift stuff. I even put quotation marks because I know it's not exactly a nerf. But aren't you concerned mostly with pre rift content? Pick a side.

 

Ok this much I can agree with. Still disagree with the base post, don't change base stuff.

 

I don't want to sound arrogant, but I don't care about what most players think if they can't make the math and realize player tag combined with spectral cure all is too strong. If most players want Abigail to be invincible, does it mean she should? I don't think so.

 

Then why is this a discussion topic anyway? Shouldn't we just leave her base kit alone then?

Then my game is bugged because shadow Abi was doing the same damage as base Abi on pre rift mobs, tested on beefalo and pigmen

Wholeheartedly agree. All this jumping through hoops to make player tag remain is wild

33 minutes ago, WenericMember said:

Gesalt Abigail isnt especially relevant right now (though she should get the changes you suggest) because the main concern is survivability for players who can't beat celestial champion.

You don't have to beat CC as Wendy to unlock her. Any character

If someone can't beat CC as Wolfgang, then player tag probably won't help. Best solution  is to put player tag in the lunar alignment branch

[chenxx]

On 12/14/2024 at 7:09 PM, chenxx said:

Providing an idea to avoid part of the very conversial enhancements on Abi's strength. This doesn't mean completely aborting enhancing Abi.

 

 

On 12/15/2024 at 8:20 AM, chenxx said:

The recipe of Spooky Flower in the top post, I think, should be:

1+5+5 +1 captured 

Considering Woodie can craft as an additional way to combat, why not add one more option for Wendy player to choose the gaming style they prefer.

 

32 minutes ago, chenxx said:

The second type of Spooky Flower mentioned in the top post

So here's 2 types of Spooky Flower(need to be renamed),we can put each of them to lunar/shadow affinity.

=======================================

The recipe of the Flower from another post

 

Sorry for my abrupt interruption, but here's my idea that I think would be valuable for construction of Wen's skill-tree.

抱歉打扰，我想呈上我的建议，这应该对完成技能树构建有用。